Thoughts On Childbirth

[Mr. DS]

I don't understand why there is a cultural thing to get men to go to the childbirth.  They have no understanding of all the things that are happening because it isn't and could never happen to them. They should wait in the hall pacing like in cartoons.

You know Lester, I absolutely have to agree with you on that.  Once again...bring on the pitchforks.  Back in the day men would drop their wives off at the hospital, go to work and come back when its all over.   Albeit I wouldn't do that, but I'd rather have waited outside when the time was near. I'll be honest, there was no reason for me to be in the room other than to "experience" the birth.  I held my wife's leg back but most of the time I spent reading or screwing around on the laptop.  I don't know why the new generation has to be involved in this.  

[the ghoul]

None of the above.

[Paquita]

I don't understand why there is a cultural thing to get men to go to the childbirth.  They have no understanding of all the things that are happening because it isn't and could never happen to them. They should wait in the hall pacing like in cartoons.

You know Lester, I absolutely have to agree with you on that.  Once again...bring on the pitchforks.  Back in the day men would drop their wives off at the hospital, go to work and come back when its all over.   Albeit I wouldn't do that, but I'd rather have waited outside when the time was near. I'll be honest, there was no reason for me to be in the room other than to "experience" the birth.  I held my wife's leg back but most of the time I spent reading or screwing around on the laptop.  I don't know why the new generation has to be involved in this.  

My husband did a very good job of holding ice on my head for a while.  It really helped! I was so thirsty and hot, but I wasn't allowed to drink anything.  I'm really glad my mom was in for the gross stuff though.  I did need my husband's help afterwards, but he didn't need to be in the room for the grand entrance.

[Newt]

I don't understand why there is a cultural thing to get men to go to the childbirth.  They have no understanding of all the things that are happening because it isn't and could never happen to them. They should wait in the hall pacing like in cartoons.

You know Lester, I absolutely have to agree with you on that.  Once again...bring on the pitchforks.  Back in the day men would drop their wives off at the hospital, go to work and come back when its all over.   Albeit I wouldn't do that, but I'd rather have waited outside when the time was near. I'll be honest, there was no reason for me to be in the room other than to "experience" the birth.  I held my wife's leg back but most of the time I spent reading or screwing around on the laptop.  I don't know why the new generation has to be involved in this.  

I can think of several reasons; none of which have anything at all to do with being an extra pair of hands helping out!

There has been a lot written over the years about the power of 'female mysteries' and how excluding men from them created resentment and tension between the sexes.  A little mystery is fine; but this is not necessarily the place for it.

Not their fault, but "back in the day" men were likely to have little appreciation or sympathy for what childbirth entailed.   A man who has seen for himself what his partner has just gone through is less likely to ask "so...when's dinner?" and "is the laundry done yet?".  At least for a day or three.  One hopes.

Modern dads are expected to participate more actively in early child care/rearing.  Being there for the birth itself may contribute to a feeling of responsibility or commitment to participating in the care of the child.  Diapers and spit-up are gross too.

How can one develop any understanding of anything if one is not there to observe and learn?  It might be argued that what is happening to your partner IS 'happening' to both of you.

Some people simply appreciate the presence of the person they care about most in the world.  Being surrounded in such an intimate moment by relative strangers could be frightening, 'cold' and lonely.  Yes, the male tends to see being 'useful' in terms of hands-on "what can I DO?" but if simply *being there* helps the mom it helps the birth process.  Not so useless.

And why the heck should any woman be expected to do this alone?  You were there at the beginning boys, it's only fair you should be there to share the resulting joy.  All of it.  

[Jack]

I don't understand why there is a cultural thing to get men to go to the childbirth.  They have no understanding of all the things that are happening because it isn't and could never happen to them. They should wait in the hall pacing like in cartoons.

You know Lester, I absolutely have to agree with you on that.  Once again...bring on the pitchforks.  Back in the day men would drop their wives off at the hospital, go to work and come back when its all over.   Albeit I wouldn't do that, but I'd rather have waited outside when the time was near. I'll be honest, there was no reason for me to be in the room other than to "experience" the birth.  I held my wife's leg back but most of the time I spent reading or screwing around on the laptop.  I don't know why the new generation has to be involved in this.  

My wife's attitude is "Why in the world would I want you to see THAT?!?!"  Thank god.  I spent childbirth in the waiting room all three times.  I think the people who came up with the idea of guys watching this are the same ones who come up with stuff like elementary school kids shouldn't have best friends. 

[Mr. DS]

Modern dads are expected to participate more actively in early child care/rearing.  Being there for the birth itself may contribute to a feeling of responsibility or commitment to participating in the care of the child.  Diapers and spit-up are gross too.

Sorry Newt, this is where a lot of my frustration comes in with parenthood.  My father didn't do this and my father's father didn't do this and I don't know why it is prevalent in my generation that we have to do this.  IOW, I often feel the whole nurturing thing has been forced down my throat at times personally and my attitude is why now after all this time?  You and others may disagree with this following statement but I think by nature, men (in general) just don't have the skills ladies do with the infant nurturing thing.  I tend to look at what other animals do and most males really don't stick around after birth.  Either that or they eat their young. 

Of course I'm not implying humans do any of this and of course a father should be involved with the child's birth and development but I will say, based on myself and what other fathers have told me, dealing with infants is something women shine a lot more at than us.  Where a baby will cry a woman may say "aww whats wrong" but many men out there will react naturally with "ok whaddya want" 10x as much as most ladies do. 

No one has to agree with this by the way but its my theory. 

[Trevor]

Either that or they eat their young. 

  + 

[Flick James]

My wife and I have had two boys. The first was very rough. 21 hours of labor, followed by a C-section that my poor wife felt. Yes, that's right, she could feel them cutting into her. It was excruciating just being there and holding her hand as she was crushing mine, just trying to fathom how f**ked up it was for her. And Newt brought up a good point. After all of that, and all my wife went through, she was not exactly elated to see the little guy. She was just too exhausted and frazzled. She actually started snoring as they were sewing her up, while I held our first son, bawling and sobbing like an insane person. I was just so relieved and exhausted and frazzled myself that I just couldn't contain the waterworks. My wife managed to bond with the little man for a short feeding before the both of them crashed into near comatose sleep.

[Newt]

Modern dads are expected to participate more actively in early child care/rearing.  Being there for the birth itself may contribute to a feeling of responsibility or commitment to participating in the care of the child.  Diapers and spit-up are gross too.

Sorry Newt, this is where a lot of my frustration comes in with parenthood.  My father didn't do this and my father's father didn't do this and I don't know why it is prevalent in my generation that we have to do this.  IOW, I often feel the whole nurturing thing has been forced down my throat at times personally and my attitude is why now after all this time?  You and others may disagree with this following statement but I think by nature, men (in general) just don't have the skills ladies do with the infant nurturing thing.  I tend to look at what other animals do and most males really don't stick around after birth.  Either that or they eat their young.  

Of course I'm not implying humans do any of this and of course a father should be involved with the child's birth and development but I will say, based on myself and what other fathers have told me, dealing with infants is something women shine a lot more at than us.  Where a baby will cry a woman may say "aww whats wrong" but many men out there will react naturally with "ok whaddya want" 10x as much as most ladies do.  

No one has to agree with this by the way but its my theory.  

This from a man who nutures a vegetable garden plot?

So...DS: you don't ever change diapers, make meals, feed the kids, get up to do night feedings or to calm nightmares, tend them when they are sick, play with your kids, take them for walks, watch TV with them, bandage their scrapes, teach them a sport, read to them, make them feel safe or give them baths?  That's all part of child care and pretty darn nurturing in my book.  

Don't be sorry: we ALL experience frustrations with parenthood!  Female animals are known to eat their young too, you know.  

In the right circumstances (given the 'right' sort of cry) I have been known to say from across a room, "What's your damage?" or to tell the kids there had better be blood for all that fuss.  Women may well have a better ear for differentiating the import of cries and we certainly don't have to be all mushy about it every time!  

Part of what separates us from the animals is our capacity to learn and to overcome our apparently inborn limitations.  It is pretty impressive what humans can do and become when they want to.

If you attended the delivery simply because your wife wanted you there, that's all that matters.  We all do things we would very much rather not do, for the ones we love.  

[Jim H]

So...DS: you don't ever change diapers, make meals, feed the kids, get up to do night feedings or to calm nightmares, tend them when they are sick, play with your kids, take them for walks, watch TV with them, bandage their scrapes, teach them a sport, read to them, make them feel safe or give them baths?  That's all part of child care and pretty darn nurturing in my book. 

Definitely.  It is worth mentioning that the extra child rearing skills women possess are by-and-large social creations.  Not to say there isn't any biological basis, just that the large majority is cultural.  There is no reason fathers can't be just about as good of nurturers as women.  And having two parents doing this is better than one.

[ulthar]

So...DS: you don't ever change diapers, make meals, feed the kids, get up to do night feedings or to calm nightmares, tend them when they are sick, play with your kids, take them for walks, watch TV with them, bandage their scrapes, teach them a sport, read to them, make them feel safe or give them baths?  That's all part of child care and pretty darn nurturing in my book. 

Definitely.  It is worth mentioning that the extra child rearing skills women possess are by-and-large social creations.  Not to say there isn't any biological basis, just that the large majority is cultural.  There is no reason fathers can't be just about as good of nurturers as women.  And having two parents doing this is better than one.

And, I would also add to the rebuttal that there are MANY examples in nature of the male taking an active role in the child rearing.  MARCH OF THE PENGUINS anyone?  How about seahorses?  I could list many others, but will leave that as an exercise.

I'm always surprised when someone announces that species such-and-such mates for life or the males are actually "part" of the family routine - the part that surprises me is that the announcement most often sounds like "holy cow, listen to THIS!"  Like it is an unknown thing and this is a NEW result, but you'd think after making so many such announcements, they'd finally get the clue that it is everywhere.

A lot of anthropological 'theories' about human gender roles are not theories but wild speculation.  There is NO evolutionary driving force for the males to be inherently disinterested in bringing up the young.  There is no transcendental evidence for this elsewhere in the Animal Kingdom, in mammals or even in primates.

That SOME males are less nurturing is undoubtedly true; just like some females are less mothering than others.  Big deal.  But the notion that there is some inherent male trait that keeps all males from being either (a) capable or (b) interested in nurturing their own offspring is ridiculous on its face and is not supported by the evidence available.

[Trevor]

Although I'm not a parent and/or father, I've been told to my face that I'm good with children and that children like me. This despite another thing that I have been told about myself that my eyes are very scary looking, which is actually BS, because children would be the first to scream and run away from me if they saw something like that in my eyes: hasn't happened yet. 

[Mr. DS]

This from a man who nutures a vegetable garden plot?

Veggies don't cry, whine or talk back Newt.  

So...DS: you don't ever change diapers, make meals, feed the kids, get up to do night feedings or to calm nightmares, tend them when they are sick, play with your kids, take them for walks, watch TV with them, bandage their scrapes, teach them a sport, read to them, make them feel safe or give them baths?  That's all part of child care and pretty darn nurturing in my book.

 

That SOME males are less nurturing is undoubtedly true; just like some females are less mothering than others.  Big deal.  But the notion that there is some inherent male trait that keeps all males from being either (a) capable or (b) interested in nurturing their own offspring is ridiculous on its face and is not supported by the evidence available.

To clarify my original point.  I honestly do enjoy taking care of the kids after the baby stage.  Its the first 3 months that proves to be challenge for me and regardless of your opion Ulthar which I respect, I feel it is a natural thing.  Do I have proof of this no but I know what I have felt.  I go by gut reaction which is one of "what do you want" when the baby is crying.   I (along with a lot of guys I know) don't tolerate the crying as well as most ladies do is my point. Hence why I dislike the first 3 months of taking care of a baby.  Ladies carry the baby, feel it growing in them and have the ability to offer life milk after birth.  Men simply are abscent to that connection from the get go.  

Listen, I'm not going to make this into a flame war discussion.  I stick by my opinion (although it may be wayyyy out there) and respect all of yours.  I just know what I've felt with all three of my kids in the first three months and a lot of guys I know feel the same way.

[Flick James]

This from a man who nutures a vegetable garden plot?

Veggies don't cry, whine or talk back Newt.  

So...DS: you don't ever change diapers, make meals, feed the kids, get up to do night feedings or to calm nightmares, tend them when they are sick, play with your kids, take them for walks, watch TV with them, bandage their scrapes, teach them a sport, read to them, make them feel safe or give them baths?  That's all part of child care and pretty darn nurturing in my book.

 

That SOME males are less nurturing is undoubtedly true; just like some females are less mothering than others.  Big deal.  But the notion that there is some inherent male trait that keeps all males from being either (a) capable or (b) interested in nurturing their own offspring is ridiculous on its face and is not supported by the evidence available.

To clarify my original point.  I honestly do enjoy taking care of the kids after the baby stage.  Its the first 3 months that proves to be challenge for me and regardless of your opion Ulthar which I respect, I feel it is a natural thing.  Do I have proof of this no but I know what I have felt.  I go by gut reaction which is one of "what do you want" when the baby is crying.   I (along with a lot of guys I know) don't tolerate the crying as well as most ladies do is my point. Hence why I dislike the first 3 months of taking care of a baby.  Ladies carry the baby, feel it growing in them and have the ability to offer life milk after birth.  Men simply are abscent to that connection from the get go.  

Listen, I'm not going to make this into a flame war discussion.  I stick by my opinion (although it may be wayyyy out there) and respect all of yours.  I just know what I've felt with all three of my kids in the first three months and a lot of guys I know feel the same way.

It sounds an awful lot like you're demonstrating the cultural argument that ulthar brought up. For you it is this way, but it sounds like that's part of your circle. I know this is going to sound judgement, but it is not. However, it does appear that you are projecting your life experiences as what is natural and the way things work. There are far more cultures amongst humanity and examples amongst nature that do not support what you're saying. On the other hand, just to prove that I'm not being judgemental, who knows, maybe the way your life works really IS the natural way human males are. I certainly don't know that any more than you do. There is just too much variation in the human experience to make that call. I have an uncle who was a very manly man who, in the 1950's in Missouri, single-handedly delivered his second child because he and his wife were in the middle of nowhere. In the same year he had helped deliver a calf. He had absolutely no experience in this area, but just reacted to the situation with his wits and instincts and rose to the challenge. Talk about being involved in the birthing process.

Anyway, I was involved with both our boys from day one on, every bit of it, and I wouldn't have it any other way. That doesn't make me less natural of a man.

[Newt]

Flick James    I tend to side with R.A. Heinlein on the issue of human abilities (despite his ideas about women).

There are differences in how the sexes are 'wired'.  My father in law used to puff out his chest and brag that he had never in his life changed a diaper.  He would never lay a hand on a stroller, either, and was never known to hold any child or feed them etc.  He was born nearly a century ago.  You would think he was afraid babies would give him cooties.  It is not uncommon for males to feel incapable and unprepared when confronted with delicate, helpless little larval human beings.  Those feelings can be so discomfiting that strong impulses toward avoidance dominate.   A woman often does not have that option and often does not experience the same intensity of feelings in that direction.  Good thing, that, for the continuation of the species!

For myself, I tend to question the sanity of anyone, regardless of gender, who claims to actively enjoy the major portion of the first three months!
And I always found tolerating the crying to be a formidable challenge. Particularly when sleep-deprived.
But I did.  I had no choice.  Somebody had to be there and step up and be responsible for the child's care and well-being.  If my husband had not been willing to help out in every way that he could, I'm not sure how I would have coped.

(shrug) Guess I was a bad candidate for motherhood.  Infants per se do not turn me on.  Children as individuals do.