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Author Topic: The Ground Zero Mosque . . . what do you think?  (Read 2484 times)
indianasmith
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« Reply #30 on: August 12, 2010, 07:36:37 AM »

Now, how many have been killed by Islamic terrorists and extremists in the same decade?  Tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands.  Even though the vast majority of the world's Muslims are not violent people, there are so many Muslims worldwide (over a billion) that if only 10% are radicalized enough to actively practice jihad against the West, you are talking over a hundred million potential terrorists!  That is more men than Hitler ever commanded, even at the height of World War II!  It is a good thing they are such primitive barbarians - if they were as technically advanced as the West, we would be in deep trouble!

Gee they have to be primitive barbarians to believe such a silly reward. A smart person wouldnt kill themselves for 32 virgins. Actually what is that? The first 32 days in heaven you are training a virgins to sexually please you (talk about work) then afterwords you got 32 annoying woman for the rest of your life... Gee that sounds like Hell to me.

Quote
What Islam needs is an internal Reformation that will completely and finally reject the "sword passages" of the Quran, just as the Catholic church renounced religious warfare in the 1960's. 

I dont think its the sword passages is the problem. Actually I even doubt the terrorist leaders really believe the Quran, they are using the passages to mind control uneducated and the insane to do the deeds.

The terrorist leaders motive is power and its not based on the Quran or even Mohammed's teachings, althought they are hiding behind it to insite additional support from other uneducated people.

I really think the FBI/CIA should treat these "Terrorist Leaders" like Charles Manson, because Charles Manson used a simular method to get his family to murder, actually Charles Manson told the police his motive was to start a race war (which is quite simular to the terrorist starting a "holy war").  Buggedout

Quote
Let each faith lay its Scriptures and ideals out there, without force or the threat of force, and may the True God win!

Oddly I thought their all the same God with different names.

From everything I have read, these guys are purely religious in their motivations, with few exceptions.  The way they conduct themselves in private generally accords itself with the doctrines they spew in public.  There are some, I am sure, who simply use jihad to further their political and financial ambitions, but for the most part these guys actually seem to believe their own rhetoric, which  makes them even more dangerous, because, many in the West insist on trying to deal with them as if they are rationally motivated when they are not.  Ahmedinijad in Iran is a prime example.  The West tries to negotiate with him as if he were  a rational human being, when in fact he is a religious zealout who truly believes his role in history is to trigger the great war that will bring about the appearance of the Twelfth Imam.

As far as this "one God many Names",  Muslims insist that Allah is the same God worshipped by Jews and Christians, and that the other "peoples of the Book" either corrupted or lost His message somewhere along the way, until Muhammad gave us His final revelation.  Most Christians rightly reject this, because our belief system is centered on the idea that Jesus Christ was the Son of God who sacrificed Himself in atonement for our sins, was literally crucified and rose again the third day.  Muhammad, in his "visions" from Allah, explicitly denied all these concepts, claiming that Jesus was NOT the Son of God, and was NEVER crucified.  If Jesus was the Son of God, then Muhammad was no prophet.  If Muhammad was a prophet, then Jesus had to be the Son of God.  Looking at the incredible preponderance of historical evidence supporting the Resurrection of Christ, Muhammad had to be wrong.

Ironically, I think he did glimpse the truth oh so briefly.  After his first visitation from Allah,  Muhammad went home to his wife Kadijah and said he feared a demon may have been trying to deceive him.  She reassured him that his visions must come from God and urged him to go back for more.  I think his first instinct was probably correct.
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« Reply #31 on: August 12, 2010, 10:27:43 AM »

I have nothing agaist faith or spiritual belief. What's more I am not an atheist as some think I am. Spiritual belief is a very important thing that must not be restricted, yet kept personal. I think the combination of the free exercise and establishment clauses in the 1st amendment were extremely well conceptualized on the part of the founding fathers and perhaps one of the more succinct areas of the constitution, which amazes me that so many people misinterpret it. Actually, it doesn't amaze me, really. Religion, faith, any belief system that is based on a set of "revealed" doctrines written down (and this includes Scientology) and widely distributed is inherently prone to hypocrisy and corruption. It may be argued that it goes beyond the hypocrisy and corruption of politics. Anyone who holds the attention of an audience who fears the afterlife holds power that often supercedes political power.

You see corruption amongst religious leaders withing Judaism, Christianity, Islam, etc. In some parts of the middle east, for example, the rich and powerful don't follow the Qu'ran, at least not in any strictness and not like the common people whom they control. Many in power there live lives of such hedonism and depravity, yet the people who are actually living the life set down for them by the Qu'ran believe these people in power have divine authority. It's not any different in any other religion. You have sex scandals and profit scandals that pop up periodically amongst the Christian right as well. I'm not judging spiritual faith, I'm just commenting on the corruption and hypocrisy that is inherent in absolute power. That was what the founding fathers knew, and why they knew that the powers of government should be limited, and shouldn't be acting on God's behalf.

I'm going on a tangent here, but I do have a point, however flawed anyone may think it is. I have sympathy for the survivors of those who dies on 9/11/2001, and understand why they would feel emotional and slapped in the face by a mosque so close to the site. But, as a nation, we need to see past that and be above letting our emotions open the door to changing the consititution, like they're talking about right now with immigration. Emotions are getting stirred, people aren't thinking rationally, and now we're getting very close to changing the constitution, and once that happens, ladies and gentlemen, this nation is officially f**ked. 
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Skull
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« Reply #32 on: August 12, 2010, 11:18:06 AM »

From everything I have read, these guys are purely religious in their motivations, with few exceptions.  The way they conduct themselves in private generally accords itself with the doctrines they spew in public.  There are some, I am sure, who simply use jihad to further their political and financial ambitions, but for the most part these guys actually seem to believe their own rhetoric, which  makes them even more dangerous, because, many in the West insist on trying to deal with them as if they are rationally motivated when they are not.  Ahmedinijad in Iran is a prime example.  The West tries to negotiate with him as if he were  a rational human being, when in fact he is a religious zealout who truly believes his role in history is to trigger the great war that will bring about the appearance of the Twelfth Imam.

Oh I agree 110%Ö

The reason why I choose Charles Manson in comparison with the terrorist because his motivations seemed similar; ok somewhat religious at least it was based upon playing the Beatles backwards, although I donít think Manson actually believed in this rhetoric or the intention to start a race war. Itís purely about his control over his members (kind of like James Earl Jones in Conan telling his followers to make a leap of faith without question.)

Quote
As far as this "one God many Names",  Muslims insist that Allah is the same God worshipped by Jews and Christians, and that the other "peoples of the Book" either corrupted or lost His message somewhere along the way, until Muhammad gave us His final revelation.  Most Christians rightly reject this, because our belief system is centered on the idea that Jesus Christ was the Son of God who sacrificed Himself in atonement for our sins, was literally crucified and rose again the third day.  Muhammad, in his "visions" from Allah, explicitly denied all these concepts, claiming that Jesus was NOT the Son of God, and was NEVER crucified.  If Jesus was the Son of God, then Muhammad was no prophet.  If Muhammad was a prophet, then Jesus had to be the Son of God.  Looking at the incredible preponderance of historical evidence supporting the Resurrection of Christ, Muhammad had to be wrong.

Faith is part of the territory with all religions.

But I donít think itís their motivation for violence against Americans. I think itís the symbol of freedom that makes it harder for them to control their own people or they can foreseen thisÖ Woman Rights and Freedom of Religion.

Quote
Ironically, I think he did glimpse the truth oh so briefly.  After his first visitation from Allah,  Muhammad went home to his wife Kadijah and said he feared a demon may have been trying to deceive him.  She reassured him that his visions must come from God and urged him to go back for more.  I think his first instinct was probably correct.

The Bible also warns us about false prophets.

I could only assume that deep down they were afraid that their message was taken at the wrong direction and it wasnít the intent of the religion but demons or false prophets twisting the message. Although Iím only guessing. :)

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Newt
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« Reply #33 on: August 12, 2010, 12:21:28 PM »

The terrorists committed a crime against humanity.

Any and all decent human beings were affected to some degree.

'Moderate' Muslims (for lack of a better term), in addition to being aghast at the events of 9/11 have been largely 'tarred with the same brush' and continue to suffer backlash for the actions of fanatics.

Surely the fanatics must regard Moderates as the worst kind of infidels?

I will admit at first I fell prey to the headlines (just as the writers intended) and my first reaction was shocked disapproval.

There already is a mosque there.

It seems that these people are trying to reach out for the purpose of healing their community - Muslim and non-Muslim alike.  They are already neighbours in the area; part of the community; and they are just as much victims of what was done as any other bystanders.

If any other label was attached to any group hoping to reach out and heal shared wounds, their efforts would be lauded.

« Last Edit: August 12, 2010, 12:23:59 PM by Newt » Logged

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« Reply #34 on: August 12, 2010, 12:46:39 PM »

I guess what I think is that, while there should be no legal prohibition, most Americans would think more highly of Islam as a whole if they exercised a little tact and built it further away.

I would agree with that observation. A bit more tact may be in order.

For my return to Badmovies, I'd like to say hi to you all and hope all is well with all!  Cheers

Going with both of these replies...noone is saying Muslims can't practice their faith, it's just a matter of respect, and a reasonable request to keep some distance.  

The rule of law in stuff like this is apparent: You will have troublemakers on both sides of the aisle looking to start their own little wars.  You just don't camp outside your enemy's stronghold and not expect trouble.

Keep some distance, that's all that's being asked. Accuse Christianity of it's own atrocities all they want to, but Muslims should remember that it was people epotomizing the worst of their own faith that caused 9\11 to happen as well.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2010, 12:48:51 PM by Umaril The Unfeathered » Logged

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« Reply #35 on: August 12, 2010, 12:56:13 PM »

Im curious, how far would be far enough? 10 blocks? 20? Never mind the fact the a mosque has been in the area for years.   Lookingup   Personally I think the world would be a better place without religion but its here and its here to stay. If you believe in freedom of religion you should believe in freedom for all religions. Not just the one you practice.

Muslims having a community center, because that's what it is, near ground zero isn't a slap in the face to anyone. If Al qaeda wanted to set up shop I would agree that statement. There were Muslims who died at ground zero you know, and im not talking about the terrorist.
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« Reply #36 on: August 12, 2010, 02:52:32 PM »

Im curious, how far would be far enough? 10 blocks? 20? Never mind the fact the a mosque has been in the area for years.   Lookingup   Personally I think the world would be a better place without religion but its here and its here to stay. If you believe in freedom of religion you should believe in freedom for all religions. Not just the one you practice.

Muslims having a community center, because that's what it is, near ground zero isn't a slap in the face to anyone. If Al qaeda wanted to set up shop I would agree that statement. There were Muslims who died at ground zero you know, and im not talking about the terrorist.

It's an understood that people of all races-religions died on 9-11.

However, regardless of the motive for this venture, a natural fear exists that the Mosque could be used as a front for radical teachings and possibly a front for sending funds to extremist groups.  You can't have something like 9-11 take place and expect fear to not exist.

It dosen't help that the Left-Wing media is calling those who oppose the measure "racists and bigots."  But there again, that's their war cry for everyone who disagrees on this issue or any issue as of late.  Lookingup

And that in itself, is a double standard considering some of the extreme hatred and scapegoating I have heard from Left Wingers over Israel (to the point where some have advocated it's total destruction.)  But that's the media for you...one set of rules for them and their supporters, and another one for the rest of us.


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Tam-Riel na nou Sancremath.
Dawn's Beauty is our shining home.

An varlais, nou bala, an kynd, nou latta.
The stars are our power, the sky is our light.

Malatu na nou karan.
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Malatu na bala
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Auri-El na nou ata, ye A, Umaril, an Aran!
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« Reply #37 on: August 12, 2010, 03:04:00 PM »

Quote
natural fear exists that the Mosque could be used as a front for radical teachings and possibly a front for sending funds to extremist groups.

there are lots of mosques / muslims in NYC. There are lots of mosques I'm sure that have abhorrent teachings but they could be located anywhere.  You don't need to have your mosque located at ground zero to train terrorists!

Quote
It dosen't help that the Left-Wing media is calling those who oppose the measure "racists and bigots."  But there again, that's their war cry for everyone who disagrees on this issue or any issue as of late.  

And that in itself, is a double standard considering some of the extreme hatred and scapegoating I have heard from Left Wingers over Israel (to the point where some have advocated it's total destruction.)  But that's the media for you...one set of rules for them and their supporters, and another one for the rest of us.

the media and both political parties are pretty well pro israel. that's really a massive understatement.  and much of the criticism of it comes  from the right: pat buchanan, Ron Paul , lester1/2jr

As far as calling people bigots that's wrong. I am all for freedom of speech and eveyone saying what they feel.

« Last Edit: August 12, 2010, 03:28:09 PM by lester1/2jr » Logged

indianasmith
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« Reply #38 on: August 12, 2010, 10:39:15 PM »

I just want to say to all participants that I appreciate this discussion for its variety of opinion and perspectives, and the civility of the exchanges.


I LOVE THIS FORUM!
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« Reply #39 on: August 13, 2010, 10:25:06 AM »

I honestly don't see what the issue is, unless the group that wants to erect the mosque is a radical group that supported the attacks.  Why would anyone in America object to a house of worship being built anywhere?  If the people that want to build the mosque are in no way associated with the people that committed the atrocities, why should they need to exercise "tact"?
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« Reply #40 on: August 13, 2010, 10:30:26 AM »

put up a plaque somewhere where ground zero happened and make sure it's shiny and lets move on.  It's enough with all this plans for ground zero and massive monuments.
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« Reply #41 on: August 13, 2010, 11:31:12 AM »

Quote
natural fear exists that the Mosque could be used as a front for radical teachings and possibly a front for sending funds to extremist groups.

there are lots of mosques / muslims in NYC. There are lots of mosques I'm sure that have abhorrent teachings but they could be located anywhere.  You don't need to have your mosque located at ground zero to train terrorists!

Quote
It dosen't help that the Left-Wing media is calling those who oppose the measure "racists and bigots."  But there again, that's their war cry for everyone who disagrees on this issue or any issue as of late.  

And that in itself, is a double standard considering some of the extreme hatred and scapegoating I have heard from Left Wingers over Israel (to the point where some have advocated it's total destruction.)  But that's the media for you...one set of rules for them and their supporters, and another one for the rest of us.

the media and both political parties are pretty well pro israel. that's really a massive understatement.  and much of the criticism of it comes  from the right: pat buchanan, Ron Paul , lester1/2jr

As far as calling people bigots that's wrong. I am all for freedom of speech and eveyone saying what they feel.



True, you don't have to be AT Ground Zero to train terrorists, but for Al Qaeda, that would be a very sweet victory, IF it were the case and I'm not saying it is, but at the same time, there are tose who fear such a thing, and neither I (nor anyone) can speak for everyone's feelings on thier trust of Muslims in this matter.

As far as Israel, I still stand by the claim that I have heard serious Left-Wing hatred at places like Youtube and a few other places. Again it's not the view of the entire Left, and that should be a given.

As to both parties and their support of Israel, I think it's because of their importance as an ally.  If they had been just another country with nothing to offer, I wonder if The hill would feel the same about them..

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« Reply #42 on: August 17, 2010, 11:39:49 AM »

Maybe you should find out some facts about the place, before you make a judgment.

Looks pretty plain vanilla to me, so take the tour.  This is just something blown out of proportion by the media.
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« Reply #43 on: August 17, 2010, 03:13:39 PM »

http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2010/08/16/2010-08-16_a_sea_of_filth_near_ground_zer0_mosque_gets_all_the_press_but_porns_around_corne.html


Quote
Opponents of a proposed lower Manhattan mosque and community center speak in hushed tones about the sanctity of the "shadow of Ground Zero."

Tell that to the patrons of the p***ycat Lounge, a strip club where a photo of a nearly naked woman marks its location just two blocks from where the World Trade Center stood.

Or the Thunder Lingerie and peep show next door, where the marquee sports an American flag above a window display of sex toys and something called a "power pump."




Quote
There are at least 10 churches in lower Manhattan south of Canal St., three synagogues, one Buddhist community center and a Hare Krishna facility. There's also a Muslim prayerhouse that, on its website, denies any connection to "any other organization trying to build anything new in the area of downtown Manhattan."





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« Reply #44 on: August 17, 2010, 05:40:37 PM »

http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2010/08/16/2010-08-16_a_sea_of_filth_near_ground_zer0_mosque_gets_all_the_press_but_porns_around_corne.html


Quote
Opponents of a proposed lower Manhattan mosque and community center speak in hushed tones about the sanctity of the "shadow of Ground Zero."

Tell that to the patrons of the p***ycat Lounge, a strip club where a photo of a nearly naked woman marks its location just two blocks from where the World Trade Center stood.

Or the Thunder Lingerie and peep show next door, where the marquee sports an American flag above a window display of sex toys and something called a "power pump."



Quote
There are at least 10 churches in lower Manhattan south of Canal St., three synagogues, one Buddhist community center and a Hare Krishna facility. There's also a Muslim prayerhouse that, on its website, denies any connection to "any other organization trying to build anything new in the area of downtown Manhattan."




I didn't know the zoning rules for that part of Manhattan.  I can no longer support the idea of a mosque at Ground Zero if it's taking up space that could be used for a strip club. 





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