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Author Topic: Fox News has the oldest audience of any cable channel  (Read 3741 times)
lester1/2jr
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« Reply #75 on: August 15, 2010, 02:07:56 PM »

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We completely destroyed Al Qaeda in Iraq.


we completely created al queda in iraq!

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despite all the whining


 by YOU in this thread

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And, despite all the whining and naysaying, we have a democratically elected government in place there that is (for the MIddle East, at least) reasonably moderate and friendly to our ineterests.


lol.


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That is a significant victory.


if you have to tell poeple it's a victory, it ain't a victory. this thing was supposed to be over in a month and the iraqi oil was going to pay for it. That we are leaving slightly less humiliated than we could have doesn't mean it wasn't a level 10 fiasco.

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As far as the Saudis go - the royal family is corrupt and autocratic, but they are more Westernized and reasonable than the population at large. 


yes, again you are stating your opposition to democracy and support for dictatorship in saudi arabia. duly noted. freedom for me but not for thee 

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I'd love to ignore them altogether, but the fact is they have a huge percentage of the world's oil, and until we get hydrogen powered vehicles online and affordable, we need them.


so no democracy for you saudi arabia!

meanwhile, oil is fungible. we only get like 22% of our oil from the middle east anyway.  whoever the saudis elected would have to sell it to us the same way the saudi royals do. they can't eat it and the people need the revenue to live. same as iran.

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Now, as for your Hizbollah poster children - they look like propaganda models.  No more and no less.


??? propaganda models???  those are people at a hezbollah rally circa 06. propaganda models.  okay prove to me they are not what they appear to be and the guy who wrote the article is lying and everything I know about lebanon is wrong. sheesh

yeah we are going to pay you some money to stand near these random people. wear these shirts. 

Hezbollah is hugely popular in southern lebanon. they win elections and they don't suicide bomb people outside polling places who don't vote for them. Hamas didn't twist anyones arm to vote them in in palestine either.

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understand the pacifism that drives you


I'm not a pacifist. I believe in civil disobediance and certainly would have supported the revolutionary war. If the patriot act starts clamping down on freedom of speech you will see how pacifistic I am.

going to war for no good reason is cowardly not brave. If would have much been harder for Bush to say no to war in iraq than it was to go along with it.  It required no fortitude on his part to allow the military industrial complex to have it's way. the republicans who opposed clintons invasions in somalia and bosnia weren't doves.


so try and paint war opponents as wimpy or cynical is silly, particularly if the one who is making the charge could apparently not be bothered to suit up and fight in the discussed war that is of apparently such great importance to humanity. 


 
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indianasmith
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« Reply #76 on: August 15, 2010, 02:38:37 PM »

Actually, I did try to join the Army Reserves when we went into Iraq.  I was told I was too old and too fat.

Hurt my feelings.
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« Reply #77 on: August 15, 2010, 06:23:41 PM »

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We completely destroyed Al Qaeda in Iraq.


we completely created al queda in iraq!




This is very true.

Saddam hussein was a b-st-rd. but he was a secular b-st-rd that looked upon radical islam as a threat to his secular power. Sure, he player good muslim, put on his sheet, bowed to mecca when the cameras were rolling but basically he was a secularist only concerned with secular power. He'd have had al-queda members killed on sight in iraq along with anyone suspected of being a radical muslim.

I'm sure hussein cheered on 911, given the way america attacked him for attempting to take over the family owned oil corporation known as kuwait. but that was likely the extent of his involvement.

Duhbya attacked irag to turn it into a corporate paradise thru  the shock doctrine ( http://www.naomiklein.org/shock-doctrine/the-book ) and I'm glad that the attempt to turn iraq into a corporate state failed.

For those who like to toss nazi comparisions around, the bush regime used hermann goering's tactics to get america into war: 

"Göring spoke about war and extreme nationalism to Captain Gilbert, as recorded in Gilbert's Nuremberg Diary:

    Naturally, the common people don't want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship. ...voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country."

Now that we've destroyed hussein's regime, we've opened the door to radical islam in iraq, and guess what country is right across the persian gulf from iraq? Iran! The heart of radical islam.
 
Way to go, DUHbya.

BTW, the money we've given to big biz under the cover of the invasion, conquest, occupation and attempted corporatization of iraq could have funded healthcare for every american several times over.



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indianasmith
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« Reply #78 on: August 15, 2010, 07:32:13 PM »

I will agree with you on one point - Saddam was a secularist.  However, he was more than willing to use jihadists when it suited his purpose.

What the 9/11 Commission determined was that there were no COLLABORATIVE ties between Saddam and Al Qaeda.  The full report did document ongoing, if tenuous, communications between them.  Zarqawi fled to Iraq for treatment after being wounded in Afghanistan and stayed there, apparently with the knowledge and permission of Saddam's government.

Bush's strategy was, in a way, much more subtle than many give him credit for.  By taking down Saddam and turning Iraq into a major theater in the war on terror, which it would have become eventually in any case, he duped Al Qaeda into spending vast resources there - bringing in thousands of men and spending millions of dollars in a place where we could effectively bring force to bear and grind them to hamburger.  And all that money and effort they spent in their failed jihad in Iraq was money and effort that did NOT go into another, devastating terror attack on American soil. 

I don't need to read some leftist screed against capitalism to get the gist of your statement - you hoped your country would lose a war.  That is one of the most despicable things I believe I have ever read.  CORPORATE STATE?  What the heck is that supposed to mean?  Just more Marxist rhetoric.

As for "opening the door to radical Islam," it was already there.  Every country in the Middle East has to face this choice at some point.  The very most that could be said for Saddam was that he was delaying the choice Iraq must now make.  But the radicals, funded by the Iranians, overplayed their hand.  They butchered so many Iraqi civilians that most Iraqis want nothing to do with them.  Yes, the Iraqi government has diplomatic relations with Iran, as Lester's photo proves.  You do kind of have to talk with your neighbors occasionally.  But if you think the Iraqis have any love for the country that spent millions, if not billions, of dollars fomenting civil war and jihad to the tune of over 100,000 Iraqi lives, I think you are firmly mistaken.

And, of course, here goes the Bush/Hitler comparison.  You libs just can't resist it, can you?  And you DARE gripe about Republicans being hatemongers!

OK, we have flogged this dead horse into oblivion now.  Shall we continue, or shall we move this over to the newly established political debate thread . . . especially since we stopped talking about FOX News about three pages ago?
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« Reply #79 on: August 15, 2010, 07:55:19 PM »

I will agree with you on one point - Saddam was a secularist.  However, he was more than willing to use jihadists when it suited his purpose.

What the 9/11 Commission determined was that there were no COLLABORATIVE ties between Saddam and Al Qaeda.  The full report did document ongoing, if tenuous, communications between them.  Zarqawi fled to Iraq for treatment after being wounded in Afghanistan and stayed there, apparently with the knowledge and permission of Saddam's government.

Bush's strategy was, in a way, much more subtle than many give him credit for.  By taking down Saddam and turning Iraq into a major theater in the war on terror, which it would have become eventually in any case, he duped Al Qaeda into spending vast resources there - bringing in thousands of men and spending millions of dollars in a place where we could effectively bring force to bear and grind them to hamburger.  And all that money and effort they spent in their failed jihad in Iraq was money and effort that did NOT go into another, devastating terror attack on American soil. 

I don't need to read some leftist screed against capitalism to get the gist of your statement - you hoped your country would lose a war.  That is one of the most despicable things I believe I have ever read.  CORPORATE STATE?  What the heck is that supposed to mean?  Just more Marxist rhetoric.


Yes, I hope the bush plan to convert iraq into a new haven for corporations fails. I hope america actually does lose the war in iraq because the war was wrong and america should lose to teach the people a lesson about letting bad leaders drag us into unjust wars.

I do not practice the motto of "My country right or wrong" and when it does wrong I hope it suffers some consequence that makes the public realize it was wrong and educates them to not elect or follow leaders that make those kind of decisions.

America has suffered badly due to the bush regime, as is just because it was stupid enough to elect him in 2004.  The sad thing is the people of iraq didn't elect bush and have suffered terribly during their "liberation" and the people in america who voted against bush also suffered when they didn't deserve to.
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SkullBat308
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« Reply #80 on: August 15, 2010, 08:38:20 PM »

A corporate state is when representative democracy is subverted so that it is no longer the will of the people directing policy, but the interests of corporations through lobbying which is exactly what is happening in America, Canada, basically everywhere. Corporate lobbyists are the ones pulling the strings behind almost every state apparatus in the world, working to create business friendly governments. Indy you say people suckle of the teat of big government but really it is business that suckles the most from that teat, looking to get tax breaks so they don't have to pay for their fair share in the maintenance of society, like fixing all the environmental, social and economic problems that these corporations cause. They don't want to pay for schools as then people would start to think critically about the terrible system that capitalism is.
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« Reply #81 on: August 15, 2010, 09:17:52 PM »

I will agree with you on one point - Saddam was a secularist.  However, he was more than willing to use jihadists when it suited his purpose.

What the 9/11 Commission determined was that there were no COLLABORATIVE ties between Saddam and Al Qaeda.  The full report did document ongoing, if tenuous, communications between them.  Zarqawi fled to Iraq for treatment after being wounded in Afghanistan and stayed there, apparently with the knowledge and permission of Saddam's government.

Bush's strategy was, in a way, much more subtle than many give him credit for.  By taking down Saddam and turning Iraq into a major theater in the war on terror, which it would have become eventually in any case, he duped Al Qaeda into spending vast resources there - bringing in thousands of men and spending millions of dollars in a place where we could effectively bring force to bear and grind them to hamburger.  And all that money and effort they spent in their failed jihad in Iraq was money and effort that did NOT go into another, devastating terror attack on American soil. 

I don't need to read some leftist screed against capitalism to get the gist of your statement - you hoped your country would lose a war.  That is one of the most despicable things I believe I have ever read.  CORPORATE STATE?  What the heck is that supposed to mean?  Just more Marxist rhetoric.


Yes, I hope the bush plan to convert iraq into a new haven for corporations fails. I hope america actually does lose the war in iraq because the war was wrong and america should lose to teach the people a lesson about letting bad leaders drag us into unjust wars.


What the heck is wrong with you? You actually hope that we lose this war, you hope that the lives lost were all for nothing? You should be supporting this war because we are in it and its best that we win it. You act like Rush Limbaugh saying how much he wants Obama to fail. I don't want Obama to fail I want him to do good and keep this country going, because if Obama sucks it with his policies then we all are going to be hurting.

Wars never go as planned and we have showed remarkable restraint in Iraq and Afganistan. Its not like the days of WW2 when we would just carpet bomb a whole city, or napalm whole forests like in vietnam. The amount of death in this war (while tragic) is a drop in the bucket compared to past wars. Heck, I think if we did just go back to old war tactics this could have been done in a year, we instead used newer tactics based on using intelligence and smart bombs to cut down on collateral damage.

Stop being a loud mouth leftist and use some rational. I don't care if your politics are different than mine, but you need to grow up and stop with the "Bush Regime" and anti American sentiment that has infected the democratic party.

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« Reply #82 on: August 15, 2010, 10:11:16 PM »


What the heck is wrong with you? You actually hope that we lose this war, you hope that the lives lost were all for nothing? You should be supporting this war because we are in it and its best that we win it. You act like Rush Limbaugh saying how much he wants Obama to fail. I don't want Obama to fail I want him to do good and keep this country going, because if Obama sucks it with his policies then we all are going to be hurting.

Wars never go as planned and we have showed remarkable restraint in Iraq and Afganistan. Its not like the days of WW2 when we would just carpet bomb a whole city, or napalm whole forests like in vietnam. The amount of death in this war (while tragic) is a drop in the bucket compared to past wars. Heck, I think if we did just go back to old war tactics this could have been done in a year, we instead used newer tactics based on using intelligence and smart bombs to cut down on collateral damage.

Stop being a loud mouth leftist and use some rational. I don't care if your politics are different than mine, but you need to grow up and stop with the "Bush Regime" and anti American sentiment that has infected the democratic party.


I don't want america to win this war. I want America to suffer defeat and to learn from the lesson so we don't engage in another unjust war we have no right to wage.

The war in afghanistan was justified as the attacks on 911 originated there. The invasion and occupation of iraq was not justified and america should lose to punish it for  waging an unjust war.
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Andrew
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« Reply #83 on: August 16, 2010, 07:39:12 AM »

I don't want america to win this war. I want America to suffer defeat and to learn from the lesson so we don't engage in another unjust war we have no right to wage.

The war in afghanistan was justified as the attacks on 911 originated there. The invasion and occupation of iraq was not justified and america should lose to punish it for  waging an unjust war.

The war in Iraq is over for us.  None of my fellow Marines are going to Iraq.  We are all going to Afghanistan.  The people being killed by IED attacks are Iraqi security forces and civilians, not Americans.  If anybody loses the Iraq war at this point, it is the Iraq citizenry.  I hope that the violence in Iraq fades away and its citizens can live in peace.
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lester1/2jr
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« Reply #84 on: August 16, 2010, 09:17:33 AM »

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Actually, I did try to join the Army Reserves when we went into Iraq.  I was told I was too old and too fat.

that's your response??  What about my  other points?  sorry, you attempting to join the reserves  has very little to do with this dialogue.  I'm not gonna waste my time haveing a one sided debate.  



Quote from: wyckednick
The amount of death in this war (while tragic) is a drop in the bucket compared to past wars.

if there had been no war there would have been no deaths.  tell the families of those who died it's a drop in the bucket.  man, talk about lack of perspective.

and speaking of perspective, I am loathe to bring up our local fighting hero but had Andrew been killed or badly hurt we would not be having this discussion because this forum likely wouldn't be here. and we would be losing a great friend


« Last Edit: August 16, 2010, 09:29:01 AM by lester1/2jr » Logged

Flick James
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« Reply #85 on: August 16, 2010, 11:00:41 AM »

I think I understand a bit about why things are getting so heated around here lately. The following points are not intended to be taken as left or right, conservative or liberal, but I won't be a bit surprised if somebody finds a way to apply a slant to it:

1. The general political climate (that's a given).

2. It's election time.

3. Badmovies.org is a surprisingly diverse melting pot. I expected that, but not to the extent that I've witnessed over the past couple of weeks. I'm sorry for the cheesy analogy, but you can always tell how diverse a melting pot is when you bring it to a boil and you get this much foam. I think that may be one of the biggest factors as to why people just can't stop posting. They can go to any number of forums intended for political debate and they are, almost without exception, going to lean to the left or the right already, whereas here one can express oneself, or pontificate, and get a wider array of responses, and, I believe, be able to reach people because there is a shared common interest.

All the threads are bleeding into each other, but I like the post by somebody in one of them that noted the same thing about the diversity present. No matter how much we may like to see things as black and white, left and right, conservative and liberal, the world ain't that way. If it were then why does the Democratic and Republican parties throw so much mud at each other in an effort to get the vote of that "undecided" portion of the population. More to the point, why is there even more mud slinging within the parties themselves when deciding who to nominate for a presidential candidate? It ain't a black and white world, we just try to make it that way. It's not even a gray world. It's full of color.

As far as politics go, if you're looking at the political spectrum as a horizontal line that goes to the left and to the right, you are horribly limited in your outlook. It's actually more like a tree, albeit with a left and right side. If you look at the socialism branch, you will see different versions, including, but not limited to, planned economy, state-directed economy, and market socialism, the latter being more and more common, especially in Europe. If you at the capitalism branch, you will see anarcho-capitalism (something I've been accused of but which is not true), laissez-faire, and corporatist capitalism.

Okay, so now on to personal beliefs that you can all bash me on at will.

The U.S. has existed throught much of its history as a mixed economy that favors capitalism. Some government control that does not reflect true laissez-faire capitalism has always existed. Over the decades, small amounts of socialist elements have found their way into the paradigm. Some things have been fully accepted into the American landscape, even by many who oppose socialism. Social Security is a good example of a socialist program that not too many people are ready to get rid of, but there are some. Another that many people don't think about are fire and emergency services, something that is certainly not essential to the constitution. As we move along, more socialism is being introduced. Some people think that's a good thing, and tend to point out the failures of capitalism as their justification. Some are very resistant, pointing out the good things that capitalism has accomplished and brought to the world. Both are true to some extent. I believe, after careful consideration and lots of study, that capitalism is the best economic system for humanity, despite some inherent flaws. I believe socialism has some value, and I believe that it can work and has worked, but tends to work best in smaller, more homongeneous countries, and where it works, it works well, but the culture and the conditions have to be right for it. So, while I don't think socialism is right for America, I don't think it is evil or immoral, and in fact I think it has nothing but the best in mind for society, but because it relies so much on government control of resources, very subject to corruption.

So, me, I'm a believer in laissez-faire capitalism. It is the basis of what our early economic system was built on, and, despite having made some mistakes along the way, has also been responsible for raising the standard of living to what it is today. In fact, many of the bad movies we love today would never have been possible in a more restrictive economy. I love it mainly because I believe it is what's best for a society of such diversity, where there is not enough cultural unity to allow socialism to work. Capitalism, despite the mistakes it is bound to make, is more mutable, more fluid, to changing conditions, social make-up, and markets, which is exactly why I think it is best for America. Unfortunately, what we have developed into in the U.S. is entering into corporatsm, something that I actually do find insidious and will spell our downfall, because corporatism does not act in the interest of the people, and, as we can see, has far too intimate a relationship with the government. This is not capitalism, although it often gets labeled as such. It is where we are, and any time you see an advocate of socialism in the U.S., you will undoubtedly see corporatist America as an example of how capitalism doesn't work. This is understandable, because we, as a nation, despite being a very mixed economy, have traditionally identified as capitalist. Government control of the economy is not a part of capitalism, and so the current landscape of things like interest rates controlled the federal reserve, corporatist lobbies having heavy influence over policy, these are the results of a mixed economy, not laissez-faire capitalism, which is why it is very easy to fall into the trap of pointing the finger at socialism, pointing the finger at capitalism, when it has been the combination of the two that has led to what we have now.

 
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« Reply #86 on: August 16, 2010, 12:50:41 PM »


1. The general political climate (that's a given).

Originally I tried to keep my political views to myself, but when the news keep pushing Bush Lied BS and saying "This is a recession for nearly 6 or maybe Bush's whole term" and my friends were believing that crap I needed to start talking about it.

The fact is...

1, Saddam Hussein has the burden of proof and the UN voted for the Iraq invasion.

2, The economy didn't get bad until the democrats controlled the house... 2007/2008.

3, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac caused the housing crash... yet nobody is going to jail.

Quote
2. It's election time.

Hey, I want to make sure people dont forget the great work that the democrates did... the importance of pushing the Healthcare bill without spending time READING IT or GIVING THE AMERICAN PEOPLE TIME TO READ IT. This is HISTORIC, so I want to make sure those GREAT DEMOCRATES get what's comming to them.

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3. Badmovies.org is a surprisingly diverse melting pot.
 

Agree... :)
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lester1/2jr
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« Reply #87 on: August 16, 2010, 02:43:46 PM »

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1, Saddam Hussein has the burden of proof and the UN voted for the Iraq invasion.

no they didn't. the security council voted to force saddam to comply and he did, thats when hanz blix and those guys went in. the war, as liberals often told us, was actually illegal under the UN charter.

more to the point, who cares what the UN says? 

we don't invade countries because we have made the case to someone that we can. We do it because we have to.  and we didn't with iraq.

If we had gotten the UN to go along with it that wouldn't have made it just or less pointless.

Quote
2, The economy didn't get bad until the democrats controlled the house... 2007/2008.

the economy went south because of the housing crash.  this had nothing to do with the incoming democrats in 2006.  the economy was "good" because it was in a ridiculous bubble that soon came crashing down.

Quote
3, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac caused the housing crash... yet nobody is going to jail

they were part of the reason.  the underlying reason was the push for home ownership from both parties, I remember distinctly Cheney and Bush at the GOP convention in 04 talking about how black home ownership was at an all time high. More specifically was alan greenspan, who served under several adminstrations D and R,  left the interest rates too low for too long after the internet bubble.

the money he injected into the economy led to the malinvestment in housing. thats what happens when too much money floods the system.

so the housing crisis was caused by the combined forces of both parties in washington intervening in the housing market for decades and most overtly by Greenspan and his easy money policy.
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« Reply #88 on: August 16, 2010, 02:56:10 PM »

Capitalism, socialism, it doesn't matter what it ends up being called.  They will put whatever spin they want on it.  As long as the people pulling the strings have all the wealth and power there is to have, the decrease in profits isn't going to matter to them.  If there is only so much wealth to go around, they will make sure it doesn't come out of their pockets.  The filthy masses will suffer that hardship.

I don't think I would call it conspiratorial.  If it were a true conspiracy, it wouldn't be happening so rampantly right in front of our eyes for all to see.  They don't need to make it a conspiracy because they've got us right where they want us.  

This all just sounds like political defeatism to me.  I can't succeed because of those evil people behind the shadows of government!  We're all doomed!  Nothing matters because everything is out to get me!  We're all screwed no matter what!  And so on.  

« Last Edit: August 17, 2010, 11:30:58 AM by BTM » Logged

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Flick James
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« Reply #89 on: August 16, 2010, 03:16:18 PM »

Quote
they were part of the reason.  the underlying reason was the push for home ownership from both parties, I remember distinctly Cheney and Bush at the GOP convention in 04 talking about how black home ownership was at an all time high. More specifically was alan greenspan, who served under several adminstrations D and R,  left the interest rates too low for too long after the internet bubble.

the money he injected into the economy led to the malinvestment in housing. thats what happens when too much money floods the system.

so the housing crisis was caused by the combined forces of both parties in washington intervening in the housing market for decades and most overtly by Greenspan and his easy money policy.

That's an excellent point, and far too overlooked IMO. This is the danger of the Fed controlling the interest rates. In a laissez-faire system, the interest rate is controlled organically by the market itself, no government intervention at all. It's not a perfect system, but it does tend to self-regulate. The Fed tends to set interest rates in the exact opposite of what it should. They'll set interest rates low to encourage investment, like they're doing now to encourage a housing rebound. Instead, more of the same bad investing and people trying to buy houses that shouldn't is still being encouraged. In an organic market-controlled system, the interest rates tend to self-regulate, which means they will be high during economic downturns, and low during booms. Doing the opposite of this does just as you have pointed out, creates too much easy money and bad investments in things that will eventually destroy our economy. You're seeing this in action now. The purpose of higher interest rates during economic downturns is that banks are less apt to lend money, which is natural, and which also encourages more viable, less risky investments, which naturally causes a healthier economy. Lower interest rates during an economic boom is a natural response from banks, being more liberal with their lending and investments, which they can afford to do, and take more risks. The result of this is that, if the risks pay off, the boom continue, and if they don't, the economy may start taking a downturn again. However, the fluctuations will be less catastrophic than they are under the current way of doing things, and markets have much more equilibrium.

The current economic woes are not the failure of capitalism, but of administrations, whether Democrat or Republican, trying to artificially create economic booms to further the notion that they know how to fix the economy. Sadly, people of partisan inclinations buy into the hype, thinking that their party can fix the economy. No they can't, because capitalism doesn't need to be fixed, by Dems or Reps. It needs to be left alone to correct itself, and the longer we keep f**king with it, the longer it will take for that to happen.
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    FROM THE BADMOVIES.ORG ARCHIVES
    ImageThe Giant Claw - Slime drop

    Earth is visited by a GIANT ANTIMATTER SPACE BUZZARD! Gawk at the amazingly bad bird puppet, or chuckle over the silly dialog. This is one of the greatest b-movies ever made.

    Lesson Learned:
    • Osmosis: os·mo·sis (oz-mo'sis, os-) n., 1. When a bird eats something.

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