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Badmovies.org Forum  |  Movies  |  Press Releases and Film News  |  Witchcraft comments from past haunt Christine O’Donnell « previous next »
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Author Topic: Witchcraft comments from past haunt Christine O’Donnell  (Read 4525 times)
3mnkids
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« Reply #15 on: September 25, 2010, 02:11:38 AM »

I just get tired of the knee-jerk hatred that so many on the left exhibit for the Tea Party movement, especially that scornful and derogatory term, "Tea Bagger."  I'm not a member, but I know a lot of folks who are, and they are GOOD people.  Hard working folks who are terrified at what they see as the hijacking of their country.  Many of them are retirees, and a great many that I have known are World War II veterans who literally saved the world 65 years ago from the greatest dangers it have ever faced.  They deserve more than to be vilified as idiots by . . . I'll try to keep it civil here - much younger individuals who have never faced anything more dangerous than a triple espresso in their entire pampered lives.


The inconvenient fact is they named themselves "tea baggers" and when they discovered the other meaning(when the "left' had a field day at their expense) they quickly distanced themselves from it. Im not saying I agree with calling them that, I dont, but they did name themselves.

My "knee jerk" reaction to the tea party members has to do with their smaller government mantra that they feel applies only to them... The ones that say "keep the government out of my medicare!" They ones screaming about entitlements for "those" people but yet get thousands of dollars in farm subsides. They want the government out of their lives but they want the same government intruding in the lives of others.
Its the whole Eff you, I got mine attitude that so many of them have that p**ses me off.
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ulthar
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« Reply #16 on: September 25, 2010, 07:17:06 AM »


My "knee jerk" reaction to the tea party members has to do with their smaller government mantra that they feel applies only to them... The ones that say "keep the government out of my medicare!" They ones screaming about entitlements for "those" people but yet get thousands of dollars in farm subsides. They want the government out of their lives but they want the same government intruding in the lives of others.
Its the whole Eff you, I got mine attitude that so many of them have that p**ses me off.


Okay, first of all, that sounds more like 'reasoned position' than knee jerk reaction.

But, where do you get that from?

I find myself agreeing with a lot of the Tea Party rhetoric, and personally do NOT believe the double standard stuff you state here.  I guess maybe there are some that do, but is it really the whole 'party?'

Which leads to another VERY important point...there is not ONE "Tea Party."  That's a name that a number of groups have attached to themselves, so, as with many discussions of this type, perhaps it is a fallacy to paint with too broad a brush in our labels and descriptions of what "they" believe.

As for the "small government mantra," I will say that for my part, I believe similarly to the Founders - that government is good for one thing only, and that is to enslave people.  Freedom is inversely correlated with size and power of central government; yes, you can follow that to its logical extension that anarchy is the embodiment of the highest order of freedom.

In fact, one of Robert Heinlein's best books (in my opinion), The Moon is a Harsh Mistress explores the notion of what his character calls "rational anarachy;" this is the idea that no matter what government exists, no matter what laws exist, each individual is completely free to do as he chooses (and bears the consequence of course)...whether we choose to obey the law or not, etc.

In other words, the illusion of government is just that...an illusion.  It relies on either our agreement to follow or our fear of reprisal if we don't follow.

Now, all that said, Heinlein's characters, the Founding Fathers, those in the 'Tea Party,'  and myself also all agree that SOME level of government IS necessary.  But how much, and MUCH MORE IMPORTANTLY, to what degree should it be centralized?

There's not one single thing the US Federal Government is doing now that I would disagree with on a State (or even local) level; none of the welfare, subsidies, drug plans, medical benefits, etc, etc, etc are an issue if that's what the people within that sovereign wish - Government By the People.  But the problem we have now is centralization.

There is NOTHING in the US Constitution that gives, for example, the people in California the power to decide that the people in MY state accept same-sex marriage.  Likewise, there's nothing that says the people in my State have the power to decide that California have to reject same sex marriage.

The Founders intended, and CODIFIED in the US Constitution that the federal government would have very limited powers and it is the States are the sovereign entity in this nation.  THAT is the heart of the matter.

California can do whatever it wants with the money it collects from taxing its OWN citizens.  I really don't care because I don't live there.  But if I cannot find a community to live in that shares my own values, how can *I* be free?

If my state, county or community is FORCED, under pressure of 'federalism,' to accept the values and lifestyles of somewhere 4000 miles away, how can you call that freedom?  Liberals like to cry that conservatives want to control other people's lives - what they do in the bedroom, for example, but by structuring the government in a one-size-fits-all society, especially one as large and diverse as the US, they are doing the EXACT SAME THING.  Forcing me to accept something I, and the others in my community, don't want in my OWN community is no more free than forcing YOU (rhetorical you) to NOT have it in yours.

And THAT is the fundamental logical flaw in what is modern liberalism.  It is, by its very nature, a contradiction.  Many liberals say "You cannot have it YOUR way, you MUST have it OUR way" while at the same time screaming that it is the conservatives that say that.  Maybe they do.

But some wish for nothing but a return to the decentralization of power so that each community can decide for itself.  Right now, my biggest sadness in political matters is NOT those that disagree with me on specific points and issues, but those that disagree that the content and spirit of the US Constitution, and vision of the Founders, is what made this country great and prosperous...that sticking to those principles will ultimately lead to the kind of freedom all Americans desire.

Sorry so Long...
« Last Edit: September 25, 2010, 11:21:16 AM by ulthar » Logged

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« Reply #17 on: September 25, 2010, 11:50:40 AM »

I'm not surprised that a republican candidate is into wicca or witchcraft. After all, that paragon of republican values, reagan, obviously believed in the occult. His main policies were "voodoo economics".

Please, lets not associate Wicca with republican values. We Wiccans have an unjustly maligned reputation as it is.
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« Reply #18 on: September 25, 2010, 08:24:21 PM »

I'm not surprised that a republican candidate is into wicca or witchcraft. After all, that paragon of republican values, reagan, obviously believed in the occult. His main policies were "voodoo economics".

Please, lets not associate Wicca with republican values. We Wiccans have an unjustly maligned reputation as it is.

In my experience, pagans tend to pretty mellow and open-minded. Also, I'm pretty sure that the right-wing's tendency to be more open to things like the death penalty and war violates the "harm none" rule.*

*I am very aware of the fact that many people who identify with right-wing parties don't support war or the death penalty. However, people who do are more likely to identify with right-wing groups than left-wing. I'd give high five to those who are truly "pro-life" by not supporting government-sanctioned death in any form, but this is the internet. Physical contact doesn't work well through a monitor.
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ulthar
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« Reply #19 on: September 25, 2010, 09:20:59 PM »


*I am very aware of the fact that many people who identify with right-wing parties don't support war or the death penalty. However, people who do are more likely to identify with right-wing groups than left-wing. I'd give high five to those who are truly "pro-life" by not supporting government-sanctioned death in any form, but this is the internet. Physical contact doesn't work well through a monitor.


That is a VERY interesting question/statement.

But there is a VERY big difference in the 'right to life' connotation, which is in defense of one who cannot defend himself...a baby in the womb is a far different critter than a person who chose, knowing the consequences, to commit heinous acts against his fellow-man.

To draw an moral equivalence is rather obtuse.

That said,

I identify as a "right winger," and I have engaged in a formal debate against the death penalty.

But in all honesty, I go hot and cold on it...meaning, of course, that my opinion is muddled.

I see the merits of the arguments "for" it, but at the end of the day, I do have a hard time giving government that level of power.  On the other hand, and trying to be consistent with my earlier comments on 'community' and 'to each their own,' if a community decides that's best, well...well, you can see where that line of thought might go.

I support the death penalty in certain, very extreme cases.  I'm not blind to the potential hypocrisy of my Christian faith with that opinion, as well as the irony given Jesus was executed (theological discussion aside).

But I will say that I think it is "over used," or at least overly attempted.

Still, even with that confession of "support," I have a VERY hard time with it.  It's abhorrent, ugly and perhaps the epitome of abuse potential for government.  I think a Ted Bundy is a good candidate, an individual who gamed the system right to the end, but, well, I even in that case I have a HARD time with it.  It's just so, well, "clinical" and "official."

On the other hand, I have no qualms about blowing the brains out of some guy who might decide it is okay to enter my home and attack my family.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2010, 09:42:27 PM by ulthar » Logged

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« Reply #20 on: September 25, 2010, 10:33:04 PM »




If my state, county or community is FORCED, under pressure of 'federalism,' to accept the values and lifestyles of somewhere 4000 miles away, how can you call that freedom?  Liberals like to cry that conservatives want to control other people's lives - what they do in the bedroom, for example, but by structuring the government in a one-size-fits-all society, especially one as large and diverse as the US, they are doing the EXACT SAME THING.  Forcing me to accept something I, and the others in my community, don't want in my OWN community is no more free than forcing YOU (rhetorical you) to NOT have it in yours.

WERD. Same with Gun Control.  I get tired of Californians, politicians, The Media and the Left constantly pressurizing lawful citizens who rightfully choose to own firearms for lawful purposes (including in-home self defense)   to give up the 2nd Amendment.  Most of these hypocrites own themselves, and also have bodyguards to defend them. The American citizen also has the right, and the right to do so w\o being guilt tripped for doing so.

And THAT is the fundamental logical flaw in what is modern liberalism.  It is, by its very nature, a contradiction.  Many liberals say "You cannot have it YOUR way, you MUST have it OUR way" while at the same time screaming that it is the conservatives that say that.  Maybe they do.

And if they do, so what? The Right has the right to speak back. Only thing is,  Liberals will (and have) tainted their opponents' viewpoints by making any and all who disagree with them look like common criminals.

Look at the recent tactics the Left has employed:  Disagree with Obama? You're a racist..

Want to keep your gun collection? You're a gun loving, pistol cocking Jesus Freak..

Disagree with illegal immigration? you just earmed your second badge in racism.

And it's totally deliberate. If they can't have THEIR slice of the pie first, NOONE can, and thus the poisoning of said pie.  The heart and mindset of truly spoiled people.


But some wish for nothing but a return to the decentralization of power so that each community can decide for itself.  Right now, my biggest sadness in political matters is NOT those that disagree with me on specific points and issues, but those that disagree that the content and spirit of the US Constitution, and vision of the Founders, is what made this country great and prosperous...that sticking to those principles will ultimately lead to the kind of freedom all Americans desire.

Very well said.   Cheers
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« Reply #21 on: September 25, 2010, 10:52:20 PM »

I just get tired of the knee-jerk hatred that so many on the left exhibit for the Tea Party movement, especially that scornful and derogatory term, "Tea Bagger."  I'm not a member, but I know a lot of folks who are, and they are GOOD people.  Hard working folks who are terrified at what they see as the hijacking of their country.  Many of them are retirees, and a great many that I have known are World War II veterans who literally saved the world 65 years ago from the greatest dangers it have ever faced.  They deserve more than to be vilified as idiots by . . . I'll try to keep it civil here - much younger individuals who have never faced anything more dangerous than a triple espresso in their entire pampered lives.

HAHA!!!! I love the "triple espresso" comment.   And on that note, I'll defer to the cesspool they call Berkeley, California, but I won't be as civil (though I will try to keep within the guidelines.)

Berkeley, CA. Where rich spolied kids ride mommy and daddy's money to the end of their careers,  and the 30 and 40-some do nothing student base  take college courses in basic anti-Americanism everyday so they can get next to the "hot little hippie girl."

Berkely also hates the military...remember the debacle with the U.S. Marines? Who the hell do these people think they are, to tell our armed servicemen, who protect their lives every day, where they can and can't go?

I'd like to see how fast they'd be screaming for Our Servicemen if a combined Russo-Chinese army landed in their backyards. Then it would be a different story, as their image was suddenly upgraded from "cold blooded baby killers" to "Our Heroes!!!"  Makes me sick.


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Tam-Riel na nou Sancremath.
Dawn's Beauty is our shining home.

An varlais, nou bala, an kynd, nou latta.
The stars are our power, the sky is our light.

Malatu na nou karan.
Truth is our armor.

Malatu na bala
Truth is power.

Heca, Pellani! Agabaiyane Ehlnadaya!
Be gone, outsiders! I do not fear your mortal gods!

Auri-El na nou ata, ye A, Umaril, an Aran!
Aure-El is our father, and I, Umaril, the king!
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« Reply #22 on: September 26, 2010, 11:41:29 AM »

Quote
Last of all, don't forget that DEMOCRATS have controlled both houses of Congress since January of 2007 - and THAT is when the economy began to go south.

Well, the economy started going south WAY before anything the democratic congress did could have caused it.  It was basically inevitable, and I'd argue some of Bush's policies made it worse (removal of oversight/regulation in a few specific areas, for example), but it would have happened regardless.  In much the same way a boom was going to happen under Clinton no matter what he did, really.  A huge amount of what the economy does is determined by outside factors and what the previous congresses did, at least that's the way it appears to me.

Quote
If my state, county or community is FORCED, under pressure of 'federalism,' to accept the values and lifestyles of somewhere 4000 miles away, how can you call that freedom?

Can you call it freedom if it's someone 500 miles away?  How about 50 or 5? As you said, it's anarchism or not, it's really just a question of where you draw the line.  I'm saying this basically theoretically, as I think it's an interesting question. 

But as far as states VS federalism, that's already been decided over and over going to federalism.  Personally, I think the states should have more autonomy and rights than they do as well.  But, it appears to me that ship has sailed. 
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« Reply #23 on: September 26, 2010, 01:07:35 PM »

I'm not surprised that a republican candidate is into wicca or witchcraft. After all, that paragon of republican values, reagan, obviously believed in the occult. His main policies were "voodoo economics".

Please, lets not associate Wicca with republican values. We Wiccans have an unjustly maligned reputation as it is.

In my experience, pagans tend to pretty mellow and open-minded. Also, I'm pretty sure that the right-wing's tendency to be more open to things like the death penalty and war violates the "harm none" rule.*

*I am very aware of the fact that many people who identify with right-wing parties don't support war or the death penalty. However, people who do are more likely to identify with right-wing groups than left-wing. I'd give high five to those who are truly "pro-life" by not supporting government-sanctioned death in any form, but this is the internet. Physical contact doesn't work well through a monitor.

True, although its important to note that Wiccan beliefs - let alone Neopagan beliefs in general - can vary as wildly among adherents as within any religious group. A popular saying is that you can ask 10 Wiccans what their faith means to them, and you get 15 or more responses. The popular stereotype is that Wiccans are all liberal democrat, pacifistic, tree-hugging hippie PETA members. While I happen to fit at least three or four of those descriptions, not everyone does. There are many in the pagan community who are willing to fight and die for their country, providing there's a truly justifiable reason for doing so (which, once again, may vary, depending on the individual's beliefs) and that they are given the same legal and spiritual rights as anyone else. There are even some paths, such as Asatru (Norse Paganism), that are considered "warrior paths." Although many fight for animal rights, not all of us are vegetarians/vegans/militant PETA members. I eat meat (hell, my first taste of venison was at a pagan circle, a bit gamey for my taste, but everyone else loved it) and certainly wouldn’t judge anyone else for doing so. Animals eat other animals, and we, though we try our best to pretend otherwise, do have a lifetime membership in the animal kingdom. Tree-hugging… if your concept of Deity is nature, then yeah, that goes with the territory. And yes, to be fair, there are some Neopagans/Wiccans who do vote republican, and agree with right wing policies (outside of conservative fundamentalism, that is). I’m not one of them, but to each his own.

(incidentally, if you want to know more about pagan views of military service, read Faith and Magick in the Armed Forces by Stephanie Barner. Its an awesome book.)

I also want to stress the point that the devil is not acknowledged within Wicca, any more than Christians would acknowledge the existance of the Goddess Freyja or any other non-Abrahamic deity.

UPDATE: Not to mention, going back to military service, many Wiccans see enlisting as following the Rede ("An it harm none..."), in other words, dedicating their position to trying to seek diplomatic solutions in wartime, and prevent escalating violence, with battle being a last resort. Soldier does not necessarily = cold blooded killer.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2010, 01:46:35 PM by Fausto » Logged

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« Reply #24 on: September 26, 2010, 03:22:58 PM »

I'm not surprised that a republican candidate is into wicca or witchcraft. After all, that paragon of republican values, reagan, obviously believed in the occult. His main policies were "voodoo economics".

Please, lets not associate Wicca with republican values. We Wiccans have an unjustly maligned reputation as it is.

In my experience, pagans tend to pretty mellow and open-minded. Also, I'm pretty sure that the right-wing's tendency to be more open to things like the death penalty and war violates the "harm none" rule.*

*I am very aware of the fact that many people who identify with right-wing parties don't support war or the death penalty. However, people who do are more likely to identify with right-wing groups than left-wing. I'd give high five to those who are truly "pro-life" by not supporting government-sanctioned death in any form, but this is the internet. Physical contact doesn't work well through a monitor.

True, although its important to note that Wiccan beliefs - let alone Neopagan beliefs in general - can vary as wildly among adherents as within any religious group. A popular saying is that you can ask 10 Wiccans what their faith means to them, and you get 15 or more responses. The popular stereotype is that Wiccans are all liberal democrat, pacifistic, tree-hugging hippie PETA members. While I happen to fit at least three or four of those descriptions, not everyone does. There are many in the pagan community who are willing to fight and die for their country, providing there's a truly justifiable reason for doing so (which, once again, may vary, depending on the individual's beliefs) and that they are given the same legal and spiritual rights as anyone else. There are even some paths, such as Asatru (Norse Paganism), that are considered "warrior paths." Although many fight for animal rights, not all of us are vegetarians/vegans/militant PETA members. I eat meat (hell, my first taste of venison was at a pagan circle, a bit gamey for my taste, but everyone else loved it) and certainly wouldn’t judge anyone else for doing so. Animals eat other animals, and we, though we try our best to pretend otherwise, do have a lifetime membership in the animal kingdom. Tree-hugging… if your concept of Deity is nature, then yeah, that goes with the territory. And yes, to be fair, there are some Neopagans/Wiccans who do vote republican, and agree with right wing policies (outside of conservative fundamentalism, that is). I’m not one of them, but to each his own.

(incidentally, if you want to know more about pagan views of military service, read Faith and Magick in the Armed Forces by Stephanie Barner. Its an awesome book.)

I also want to stress the point that the devil is not acknowledged within Wicca, any more than Christians would acknowledge the existance of the Goddess Freyja or any other non-Abrahamic deity.

UPDATE: Not to mention, going back to military service, many Wiccans see enlisting as following the Rede ("An it harm none..."), in other words, dedicating their position to trying to seek diplomatic solutions in wartime, and prevent escalating violence, with battle being a last resort. Soldier does not necessarily = cold blooded killer.

Tell me about it. I've tried to explain the basics of my particular neo-pagan group to people, but it's kind of difficult when you have to point out that the basics of those beliefs fall into two very broad groups depending on which branch you learned from, to say nothing of the fact that the beliefs and practices very not just from grove to grove but from person to person. It gets even more confusing to followers of more organized religions when you try to explain that there is no head of the group, no holy book, and no one who will spoon-feed you answers since our general philosophy is that it's up to the individual to form a connection to the divine and that said connection will be very personal and unique to the individual.
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« Reply #25 on: September 26, 2010, 03:28:24 PM »

interesting comments all.  I might add that the person Ms. O'Donnell was talking about was a teenager and a goth, none of which means he was a Wiccan.  Don't Satanists also claim to be "witches" sometimes?  Honestly, if he was like a lot of angry, rebellious teenagers, his belief system was probably centered around whatever was most likely to make his parents' heads explode.
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« Reply #26 on: September 26, 2010, 03:39:56 PM »

UPDATE: Not to mention, going back to military service, many Wiccans see enlisting as following the Rede ("An it harm none..."), in other words, dedicating their position to trying to seek diplomatic solutions in wartime, and prevent escalating violence, with battle being a last resort. Soldier does not necessarily = cold blooded killer.

This is what the accusers don't understand. Soldiers do NOT have the option to just
"quit their job" and\or sign a discipline slip.  They have no say over where they go, or what they have to do, including war.  They have to do what they are told, with severe penalties for refusal.

This does not mean they all agree with what they do. And it also dosen't mean they are hypocritical for complaining about a job they KNEW they might have do when they signed up.  Like any job, complaints come with it.

America, like any other country, has her own natural enemies (those who pre-meditatively sought to do us harm from the start) as well as those made by our actions and political practices.   And regardless of those 2 schools, our servicemen and women are here to protect us, period.

And they are to be respected above all others, for doing things in the name of freedom ordinary people don't have to do, because they are out doing it for all of us.

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Tam-Riel na nou Sancremath.
Dawn's Beauty is our shining home.

An varlais, nou bala, an kynd, nou latta.
The stars are our power, the sky is our light.

Malatu na nou karan.
Truth is our armor.

Malatu na bala
Truth is power.

Heca, Pellani! Agabaiyane Ehlnadaya!
Be gone, outsiders! I do not fear your mortal gods!

Auri-El na nou ata, ye A, Umaril, an Aran!
Aure-El is our father, and I, Umaril, the king!
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« Reply #27 on: September 26, 2010, 04:37:50 PM »

interesting comments all.  I might add that the person Ms. O'Donnell was talking about was a teenager and a goth, none of which means he was a Wiccan.  Don't Satanists also claim to be "witches" sometimes?  Honestly, if he was like a lot of angry, rebellious teenagers, his belief system was probably centered around whatever was most likely to make his parents' heads explode.

Yeah, that's pretty much how most teenage "conversions" go. Once in a blue moon they actually mean it and really do believe in it, but it's usually safe to take a teen's claim that they've converted to Wicca or Satanism or whatever with a grain of salt. I'd imagine that it's kind of annoying to have people assume that you chose your spirituality solely as a weak attempt to rebel against your parents.

@Fausto

Soldiers are people, too. Of course they don't necessarily agree with what they do all the time, but the possibility of participating in a war is kind of part of the job. I respect men and women in uniform, certainly, but I don't necessarily agree with what they're sometimes told to do. However, I'd like to point out that military service isn't the only way to serve your country. It's more than possible to serve your country by being a diplomat, for example. Or you could raise awareness about an internal issue that often gets overlooked.
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« Reply #28 on: September 26, 2010, 06:06:46 PM »


Can you call it freedom if it's someone 500 miles away?  How about 50 or 5? As you said, it's anarchism or not, it's really just a question of where you draw the line.  I'm saying this basically theoretically, as I think it's an interesting question. 


Well, to clarify, I think that the 'closer' the seat of power is, the better for all individuals within that sphere.  It's far easier to get 50 people to agree on things than 500, etc.  By extension, its far easier to get people within a 5 mile circle to agree on their rules/values than a 500 mile circle.

This is why I choose to use the term "community;"  I prefer a strong-State to a strong-Fed, but even better, bring the real power down to the county, or even neighborhood.   The fundamental point, though is freedom of movement between 'spheres' so that one can find a community that 'best fits.'

This is not to say that the 'best fit' has to be 100% agreement.  But it FAR more difficult for a decision maker to be irresponsible when he has to look the people in the eye, or eat at their homes, or have their son date his daughter, etc.  Does Obama (or Bush, or Clinton, etc) care one whit about ME and my family?  No, we are simply statistics to them, part of some average demographic.

I belong the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America, one of the most splintered and diverse Protestant groups in the US.  We are, to me, an amazing organization.  That we can be so diverse in so many matters, and even individual congregations carry a large diversity, and still 'come together' is a fascinating study in my concept of "community."  So, no, I don't think everyone within my sphere has to think 100% like, but make the groups (and goals) small enough to be cohesive and VERY personal, and the dynamics change dramatically.

Quote

But as far as states VS federalism, that's already been decided over and over going to federalism.  Personally, I think the states should have more autonomy and rights than they do as well.  But, it appears to me that ship has sailed. 


Hmm, maybe, but maybe not.  History of the future (??, I hope you know what I mean by that) is not settled - we continue to make it.  I wonder if we, as a species, might continue to explore this and get better at it next, and even better at it the time after that, etc.

The next "great experiment" in government will have the history of the US to look at to see what was right vs what was wrong.  Who knows?
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------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Professor Hathaway:  I noticed you stopped stuttering.
Bodie:      I've been giving myself shock treatments.
Professor Hathaway: Up the voltage.

--Real Genius
Mean Machine
Guest
« Reply #29 on: September 26, 2010, 08:19:53 PM »

I just get tired of the knee-jerk hatred that so many on the left exhibit for the Tea Party movement, especially that scornful and derogatory term, "Tea Bagger."  I'm not a member, but I know a lot of folks who are, and they are GOOD people.  Hard working folks who are terrified at what they see as the hijacking of their country.  Many of them are retirees, and a great many that I have known are World War II veterans who literally saved the world 65 years ago from the greatest dangers it have ever faced.  They deserve more than to be vilified as idiots by . . . I'll try to keep it civil here - much younger individuals who have never faced anything more dangerous than a triple espresso in their entire pampered lives.

Now, Mean Machine, I will try to clear up a few things you say.  First of all, I get my news from a variety of sources - MSN.com and TIME as well as FOX.  Coulter amuses me, Rush generally bores me after the first few minutes, and I have zero tolerance for people like Mark Levin and Michael Savage, who do nothing but insult their callers and scream epiphets at public officials they don't like.
  As for your statement - the budget was briefly balanced during the last two years of the Clinton administration - by a REPUBLICAN CONGRESS.  Since all money bills originate in the House, and Congress jointly controls all Federal spending, that balanced budget (which wasn't really, but it was the closest we've come in AGES) is at best a joint effort by a Republican Congress and a Democratic President.  As for the Florida election, there was NEVER a single count that showed Gore ahead.  Not one. And the Washington Post, hardly a conservative rag, conducted an exhaustive recount of ALL the ballots after the election had been ruled on by the court - and found that Bush won.  Was there probably some voter fraud?  Quite likely, there always is, and both sides do it.  Generally speaking, Democrats are a bit better at it than Republicans, but the usual rule is that voter fraud nullifies itself.  Again, the election was won by Bush fair and square, albeit in a squeaker.  Might I add, the first lawsuit was thrown down by none other than the Gore campaign.  If you don't want the election decided in the courts, then don't file a lawsuit over the outcome!
  It is true that the debt and deficit increased significantly under Bush.  However, in all fairness, the economy absorbed a &600 BILLION dollar hit in the form of 9/11 just a few months into his Presidency.  Then he fought two wars (which, despite all the griping and moaning from the left, were LEGAL and JUST conflicts) and managed to pretty much win one of them before leaving office.  Last of all, don't forget that DEMOCRATS have controlled both houses of Congress since January of 2007 - and THAT is when the economy began to go south.  For most of Bush's term of office, we had economic growth that was DOUBLE  and unemployment abouth HALF of what it is now.
  As for Obama's stimulating the economy - oddly enough, I don't see it jumping up and down, waving its arms, and going "WOOHOOO!" at the moment.  It's about as UNSTIMULATED as a straight college guy in a gay S&M bar! Obama's only operating plan seems to be to tax the rich more, tax the middle class more, and spend even more than he is taking in.  Even as much of Europe backs away from socialism and implements austerity measures, he is determined to spend out country into the economic abyss.
As far as Miss O'Donnell goes . . . I'll cut her some slack on the whole alleged witchcraft thing.  She was 17.  Which of us DIDN'T do stupid stuff at age 17?


Let's talk about some of these issues.

As to hating the far right, I am indeed guilty as charged. I hate the far, radical right and make no apologies for it.

Is it "knee jerk" hate? Well, let's see if I actually have reason to hate the right or is it a "knee jerk" response.

When bill clinton was elected president, the far right went into a frenzy, vowing to spend the next four years making him miserable, hounding him constantly and initiating  every measure possible to cripple his presidency, despite the fact the he won the election.

They pulled their little shutdown of the federal government, they unleashed ken starr's inquisition on him, they finaly had their little impeachment all because they didn't get their way in the 22 or 96 elections, essentially trying every dirty little trick they could to over turn democracy and defeat the will of the american voter when it didn't go their way. I remember the commercials urging president clinton to "Resign now" to space america the embarrassment of the republican impeachment.

Then we had DUHHHHbya who didn't even win the election, since gore got about 500,000 more votes than he did, but the far right expected us to all fall in line behind their president and if we didn't we were traitors and unamerican.

Now we have another democrat in office, and once aain the far right is at it, with their cries for "Impeachment" and "kenyan birth" ane "OMAMA IS HITLER!!!". Now they're talking about armed uprisings and revoltutions or secessions if they don't get their way.

I see them walking around in their "SPAY AND NEUTER LIBERALS! Partnership for a liberal free america" shirts. I see them threatening to shoot elected lawmakers who vote for healthcare reform.


I see sharon angle talking about conservatives having to pick up guns if they don't retake congress and how someone needs to "take out harry reid".

Damn right I hate them. I'd like to beat the far right to a bloody pulp, personally, for their refusal to accept an election that doesn't go their way and their demand that everyone follow their president when one gets elected.  I'd like to stomp the far right's collective face in for deciding to sabotage and overthrow democracy when it doesn't go their way, and I make no apologies for it.

I actually hope they try pulling some sort of revolt just to see them crushed and the survivors imprisoned.

So yes I hate the far right, and I don't consider it to be a "knee jerk" hatred but rather a  well founded hate for arrogant hypocrites who want to basically overthrow democracy and impose a far right conservative chrsitan dictatroship on america and me.

As for "knee jerk" hate, look at how the teabaggers automatically hate anyone on the left and compare them to hitler, the beast, etc.

Seems to me that the knee jerk hate is mostly a far right thing, the well founded hate is more something the left has for the people who seem to want to turn america into a christian conservative theocratic dictatorship where only the christian conservatives can run, be elected, have power, etc.

PS apologies to wiccans, they really are nice and reasonable compared to the teabaggers like O'Donnell.
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