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Author Topic: Millionaires to Obama: Tax us  (Read 2964 times)
Doggett
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« Reply #15 on: November 21, 2010, 01:06:25 PM »

Giving is giving.  Paying taxes is patriotic.  I am perplexed by people who aren't rich, but defend the rich (even to their own detriment) because... they hope to be rich someday, or dream of so being, and don't want to risk their imaginary millions into government coffers...  Question Lookingup


Those people are called Russian.
I know this.

People who've been poor all their lives and don't have heating or electricity will vote for the same government all their lives beacuse they believe its the right thing to to for the greater good.

I wanted to grab one guy by the shoulder and tell him:

"Vote for someone else !!! It's not like you can be any worse off!"

They call themselves socialists, but they're not. I know this becasue I am one (a socialist, not Russian). The whole point is that everyone can least have a little something (it won't be equal, but it'll better than than living in a hut with no heating...), that doesn't work in Russia.
Only people in Mocsow get things and then its through bribarby and corruption, journalists in Russia know this they even held a ralley two weeks ago to highlight the point.
Not that it was broadcast on Russian TV.




I have no idea why I'm talking about Russia.
I find the way of thinking there...troublesome.

I also don't like Russia Today, the news network that broadcasts in the UK. I don't trust any news network that CAN'T SPELL !

I also don't like the English woman on CNN, the one with the short dark hair Grrr..... She is so opinionated which I don't want.


Thank God for BBC News...

No, I don't know why I mentioned the CNN woman either. I think I was on a roll...
« Last Edit: November 21, 2010, 10:43:19 PM by Doggett » Logged

                                             

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Allhallowsday
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« Reply #16 on: November 21, 2010, 08:44:52 PM »

Thank God for BBC News...
No, I don't know why I mentioned the CNN woman either.
I think I was on a roll...
Or was it a sesame seed bun...???  Question
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Umaril The Unfeathered
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« Reply #17 on: November 21, 2010, 09:08:47 PM »

Giving one's life for lost souls and giving one's hard earned dollars to a bloated, wasteful bureacracy are hardly the same thing, AHD.  And I'm not against paying what's required.  But if all God requires is 10%, where does ANY government get off demanding that some people pay 40% of their annual income, in addition to massive taxes on their property that have to be paid EVERY YEAR, even if the property has been in their family for generations.  Then every single purchase they make is also taxed, as are their business transactions. And, oh yeah, if some in Congress get their way, after the government takes half their income every year for their entire productive lives, when they die, the government will take another 40% of what is left before allowing the remainder to be passed on to their children.  That is insanity!

Right on the money, my friend.


I am fine with GIVING.  People are free to GIVE all they want to the charity of their choice, including the United States Government.  But I think it is immoral, evil, and wrong for any government to assume that it is entitled to HALF or more of everything you earn in a lifetime, just because you happen to be financially successful.

Yeah, and it's even more immoral that WE pay OUR taxes, but Congress dosen't pay THEIRS (let's not kid ourselves) Oh well, at least Charlie Rangel won't be getting away with that anymore.. 

Frankly, AHD my friend, your reply was an apples to oranges comparison and a rather cheap shot.

You mean the "yet Christ gave everything" remark? I agree. It was a very cheap shot.

Funny that Left-Wingers will slam Christianity as hypocritical, and then rely on it in some instances in a straw man attempt to try to make a valid point, such as this one.

But yet, only we conservatives are supposed to be the only hypocrites on the block. Even funnier...

Have a good laugh, my friend, 'cause that's all a statement like that is good for.  Cheers



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« Reply #18 on: November 21, 2010, 09:48:21 PM »

Giving is giving.  Paying taxes is patriotic.  I am perplexed by people who aren't rich, but defend the rich (even to their own detriment) because... they hope to be rich someday, or dream of so being, and don't want to risk their imaginary millions into government coffers...  Question Lookingup

If you really see no difference between GIVING and having something taken from you by force, there is no point in continuing the conversation.

And you are making an incorrect assumption *IF* you think people defend the rich because they hope to be rich someday.  That's a VERY narrow minded point of view.

Progressive taxation is NOT patriotic...it is punitive.  Progressive taxation is one of the basic tenets of Marxism (and yes, I've read Marx and Engels and am referencing the source material here, not quoting some "Right Wing Talking Point," so let's put that cat to bed before it even meows), and the purpose, as outlined in M&E, is to destroy the upper class.

Class warfare is tiresome.  Those that sing this idiotic tune might try being a little positive...how about celebrate the success of others and realize that the greater number of people that succeed, the better it is for everybody.  The gain of wealth is not a zero sum game...for one to become rich, another does not need to become (or stay) poor.

Wealth can be generated...created...but ONLY in social and economic systems that ALLOW it to exist and grow.  The "equality" of Marxism is not to create any wealth to bring all UP, but to destroy and bring everyone down to poverty.

History shows this to be true in every single system where Marxist ideals were put into practice.  Marxism is an utter failure, and I cannot believe anyone continues to grope at any fundamental tenet that leads to that path....including progressive taxation.
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Umaril The Unfeathered
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« Reply #19 on: November 21, 2010, 10:25:59 PM »



History shows this to be true in every single system where Marxist ideals were put into practice.  Marxism is an utter failure, and I cannot believe anyone continues to grope at any fundamental tenet that leads to that path....including progressive taxation.

Bingo. It's the same every time. The Russians gave the illusion that they were a rich and wealthy society, exemplifying it thru their massive military buildup, and the facade of maintaining their forces, when in reality they had not one penny to do it with, due to the Marxist ideal of the spurning of capitalism and the ruining of the banks and the wealthy.

So, like most systems of this kind, they leeched off of their neighbors and fellow countrymen to provide for the govt. and it's thugs. And soon the people realized that there was no equality, no united workers, just a military statehood where the the govt. controls everything and grave consequences were enforced for stepping out of line.

Whose to say that can't happen in the U.S.?
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Tam-Riel na nou Sancremath.
Dawn's Beauty is our shining home.

An varlais, nou bala, an kynd, nou latta.
The stars are our power, the sky is our light.

Malatu na nou karan.
Truth is our armor.

Malatu na bala
Truth is power.

Heca, Pellani! Agabaiyane Ehlnadaya!
Be gone, outsiders! I do not fear your mortal gods!

Auri-El na nou ata, ye A, Umaril, an Aran!
Aure-El is our father, and I, Umaril, the king!
lester1/2jr
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« Reply #20 on: November 22, 2010, 10:54:23 AM »

Quote
Then every single purchase they make is also taxed, as are their business transactions. And, oh yeah, if some in Congress get their way, after the government takes half their income every year for their entire productive lives, when they die, the government will take another 40% of what is left before allowing the remainder to be passed on to their children.  That is insanity!

Right on the money, my friend.


So you guys are for massive cuts to military spending and ending the war on terror? If not, how do you expect to get the revenue? I don't understand.

It's a trillion dollars a year and takes all tjhose resources and people out of the private economy.

Sorry, I don't see how you can square that.  LIke the global warming people and the welfareists and so forth, you are all for taking money from working people when its for your personal crusade.

Everyone wants the honey but not the sting

« Last Edit: November 22, 2010, 10:56:33 AM by lester1/2jr » Logged

Jim H
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« Reply #21 on: November 22, 2010, 01:56:52 PM »

Quote
Sorry, I don't see how you can square that.  LIke the global warming people and the welfareists and so forth, you are all for taking money from working people when its for your personal crusade.

Everyone wants the honey but not the sting


Indeed.  Sacrifice doesn't appear to be much of a virtue anymore.  I will say I've heard a few of the new conservatives argue the military should be cut quite a bit though, which makes me respect their beliefs more.

Quote
Progressive taxation is NOT patriotic...it is punitive.  Progressive taxation is one of the basic tenets of Marxism (and yes, I've read Marx and Engels and am referencing the source material here, not quoting some "Right Wing Talking Point," so let's put that cat to bed before it even meows), and the purpose, as outlined in M&E, is to destroy the upper class.


Well, I'm reminded of the global warming thread here, about those who have the knowledge and training to properly understand the situation - as, again, I'm not convinced anyone here does (myself included).  Shouldn't we be listening to economists on which taxation systems are the most effective at working in the economy, not which suits our political or personal beliefs?  It's clear progressive taxes can work - try naming a successful economy today without them.  Not to say a flat tax couldn't also work, but I'm not convinced of that yet.  What country has tried it and succeeded?  Which have tried it and failed? 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_tax#Countries_that_have_flat_tax_systems

Interesting stuff, anyway.

Singapore has progressive taxation, which from what I can tell has one of the most intelligently constructed economies in the world.  Arguing results in regards to the economy is what should matter here. 
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Allhallowsday
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« Reply #22 on: November 22, 2010, 09:55:44 PM »

Frankly, AHD my friend, your reply was an apples to oranges comparison and a rather cheap shot.
You mean the "yet Christ gave everything" remark? I agree. It was a very cheap shot.
Funny that Left-Wingers will slam Christianity as hypocritical, and then rely on it in some instances in a straw man attempt to try to make a valid point, such as this one.
But yet, only we conservatives are supposed to be the only hypocrites on the block. Even funnier...
Have a good laugh, my friend, 'cause that's all a statement like that is good for.  Cheers
I didn't call you a hypocrite.  I didn't accuse you of cheap shots.  I'd let my friend Indy get away with it because we are often at odds, and discuss Christianity regularly on this forum; in my view, his politics interfere with his faith.  Umaril, don't lump me in.  You don't know anything about my politics, and don't assume you do.  You're a newbie here, and frankly, you've p**sed me off.   Hatred 

And my statement is at the heart of Christianity, not a cheap shot.  Conservative right-wing "thinkers" like yourself are swift to condemn, and quick to define, but did you think about what I wrote? 
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Allhallowsday
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« Reply #23 on: November 22, 2010, 10:10:12 PM »

Giving is giving.  Paying taxes is patriotic.  I am perplexed by people who aren't rich, but defend the rich (even to their own detriment) because... they hope to be rich someday, or dream of so being, and don't want to risk their imaginary millions into government coffers...  Question Lookingup
If you really see no difference between GIVING and having something taken from you by force, there is no point in continuing the conversation.
Hey, you're not having a conversation with just me, but if you want to stop conversing, that's fine with me. 

And you are making an incorrect assumption *IF* you think people defend the rich because they hope to be rich someday.  That's a VERY narrow minded point of view.

Progressive taxation is NOT patriotic...it is punitive.  Progressive taxation is one of the basic tenets of Marxism (and yes, I've read Marx and Engels and am referencing the source material here, not quoting some "Right Wing Talking Point," so let's put that cat to bed before it even meows), and the purpose, as outlined in M&E, is to destroy the upper class.

...Wealth can be generated...created...but ONLY in social and economic systems that ALLOW it to exist and grow.  The "equality" of Marxism is not to create any wealth to bring all UP, but to destroy and bring everyone down to poverty.

History shows this to be true in every single system where Marxist ideals were put into practice.  Marxism is an utter failure, and I cannot believe anyone continues to grope at any fundamental tenet that leads to that path....including progressive taxation.
Excuse me, Ulthar, the article was about millionaires who believe the Bush tax cuts should be allowed to expire.  Their tax money is not being taken from them by force.  Always with you right wingers: Marxism (or is it Nazis this week?)  Lookingup 

Class warfare is tiresome.  Those that sing this idiotic tune might try being a little positive...how about celebrate the success of others and realize that the greater number of people that succeed, the better it is for everybody.  The gain of wealth is not a zero sum game...for one to become rich, another does not need to become (or stay) poor.
No, but a lot of wealthy got that way by riding on the backs of underpaid workers.  But of course "class warfare" is "idiotic".  However, that point was not part of my commentary.  And I do see a lot of "right-wing talking points" in your comments even though you have proclaimed the cat has been "put to bed". 

A lot of assumptions are drawn because... I believe giving is right and good?  Because... I posted an article about rich people whom I agree with?   

I don't understand you guys.  That's two of you resorting to insults in the wake of broad assumptions about me. 
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ulthar
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« Reply #24 on: November 22, 2010, 10:19:15 PM »

Your comments were not those of the article you posted...    Buggedout
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Allhallowsday
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« Reply #25 on: November 22, 2010, 11:03:19 PM »

Your comments were not those of the article you posted...    Buggedout
My comments were not... wha...?   Question 
I don't get your point, but will point out that, once again, you skirt your own behavior.  You made broad assumptions about me.  Then, you insulted me. 

Last thing I will say: rationalizing Christianity with behavior that separates us is not Christian. 
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AndyC
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« Reply #26 on: November 23, 2010, 12:55:07 AM »

Frankly, AHD my friend, your reply was an apples to oranges comparison and a rather cheap shot.
You mean the "yet Christ gave everything" remark? I agree. It was a very cheap shot.
Funny that Left-Wingers will slam Christianity as hypocritical, and then rely on it in some instances in a straw man attempt to try to make a valid point, such as this one.
But yet, only we conservatives are supposed to be the only hypocrites on the block. Even funnier...
Have a good laugh, my friend, 'cause that's all a statement like that is good for.  Cheers
I didn't call you a hypocrite.  I didn't accuse you of cheap shots.  I'd let my friend Indy get away with it because we are often at odds, and discuss Christianity regularly on this forum; in my view, his politics interfere with his faith.  Umaril, don't lump me in.  You don't know anything about my politics, and don't assume you do.  You're a newbie here, and frankly, you've p**sed me off.   Hatred 

And my statement is at the heart of Christianity, not a cheap shot.  Conservative right-wing "thinkers" like yourself are swift to condemn, and quick to define, but did you think about what I wrote? 

I agree that AHD's reference to Christianity was relevant in this situation, although I probably would have phrased it a bit differently. It was Indy's specific statement, and perhaps his own careless wording, that were in question. Indy specifically said that because these people already pay more, and wish to make an even larger contribution, they must be "morons." That immediately struck me as an odd thing to hear from someone who is not shy about expressing his Christian beliefs. Although they're not necessarily motivated by religious beliefs, what those millionaires are doing is very much in line with the most basic Christian values of giving and putting others before yourself.

And no, I don't think the "moron" statement can be qualified by suggesting that what they choose to support with their giving is less worthy than what someone else chooses to support. Whatever your opinion of how unfairly you're taxed or what kind of value for money your government is giving you, or whether you would do the same thing, what those millionaires are doing is noble and deserving of respect. Dismissing them as morons is certainly not appropriate.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2010, 01:03:41 AM by AndyC » Logged

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indianasmith
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« Reply #27 on: November 23, 2010, 01:09:46 AM »

Let me take a different tack, then:
When the Bush tax cuts were enacted in 2001, many rich liberals complained that government would be starved of revenue if we did not continue to tax the wealthy at the old rates.  So, the IRS created a special fund where ANY American who felt guilty because they were not taxed enough could voluntarily contribute as much to the government as they wanted.  Last I heard, the fund had collected nearly $10,000 over 10 years!  These gentlemen could simply donate their money to the government if they wanted to, but they haven't.  And what they are proposing is that the government increase the amount that it already takes, not just from them, but from every American who earns as much as they do.  They won't voluntarily give to assauge their guilty liberal consciences, but they will throw their entire economic class under the tax bus.

Maybe it's not moronic, but I still don't find it particularly Christian.
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« Reply #28 on: November 23, 2010, 01:22:37 AM »

That's a fair statement.
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« Reply #29 on: November 23, 2010, 12:32:43 PM »

Yeah I don't know if that's the same thing though. The tax cuts for the top 2% are going to take 700 billion or something out of the budget. Obviously I think we should cut spending but if you have a different sense of the budget that number is not going to be equaled by 40 or so millionaires giving a little more. The thing about the voluntary taxation isn't an invalid argument it's not a super great one though.

and I have to say, I went to college in the PC 90's and even there and then I didn't come across any leftist who was as defensive as Umaril the unfeathered. People have different opinons than you. relax. Virtually every post you take some random remark as a slight.

Also, don't know if I mentioned it but so called defense spending, really offense/ empire spending, is bankrupting this country.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2010, 12:36:50 PM by lester1/2jr » Logged

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