Clash of Cultures Looms in Europe, Experts Say

[indianasmith]

Perhaps if they quit living up to the stereotype people would quit holding it.

Of course I realize that not all Arabs, and not all Muslims, are terrorists or have terrorist sympathies.  But enough of them do that many otherwise rational Westerners - myself included - distrust and fear the lot of them.  It doesn't help when their mullahs forbid them from forming close friendships with "infidels", and teach them that lying to trick the infidel into a sense of false security is no sin.

Many of them simply ignore those teachings, of course - but enough of them don't ignore them that the veil of suspicion and hostility settles over the whole group.

[lester1/2jr]

It seems like the world of Lester would be a place where the USA would stand aside and let Hitler finish the Holocaust - until there was not a single Jewish person left in Europe, or any gypsies or Slavs or Poles - because "he wasn't doing anything to us."

 We are not in the 1930's. radical islam is not Hitler. They don't have massive war machine rampaging through Europe. They want us out of their countries. They are more like the south in the civil war, except we don't even have the fig leaf of a written agreement with them saying they have to remain in a union. (The south, as I'm sure you know, didn't want to take over the north.)

Virtually all arabs and persians, wether they are shia, sunni or christians or whatever, hate the united states foreign policy. They are not united by really anthing but that.




Let me turn this around on you Indiana: are ALL wars justified??  Were all of Clintons interventions in the 90's a good idea?

If we hadn't gone to war in Iraq all the people who died in that war would be alive and with their families. doesn't that count for something?  

I'm fine with people being "hawks" what worries me is

1. when there seems to be absolutely no clear criteria for when you go to war over not and

2. lets face it, how important can these wars be to people like you when you aren't willing to enlist yourself?

people in ww2 put their money where there mouth was and joined. people aren't doing that now.  for one reason or another they don't actually care as much when push comes to shove.

Islamic fundamentalism is evil, pure and simple.  Glutted with oil money, its reach grows stronger day by day.

but we're broke!  we're borrowing money from the Chinese to fight these wars. What about our own survival?

But when you allow evil to camp on your doorstep before you try and do something about it, it's only one step away from being inside your house

it's not at our doorstep. the middle east is on the other side of the world!! and all they want is for us to leave them alone!!

They'e been radical fundamentalist weirdos since before our country existed.

We lead another way of life and it is obviously superior in most measurable ways.

If good refuses to oppose that which is plainly evil, how can it claim to be good?

all wars claim to be good. Hitler thought that wiping out jews and gypsies and having everyone be atheist and live in the countryside was for the betterment of mankind.

war is the original evil. World war 1 gave us communism. The onerous sanctions of the treaty of versailles gave us Hitler.  I'm not about letting holocausts go on, I'm about stopping them from happening in the first place.  That's a lot better than stopping one that's in progress isn't it?

[indianasmith]

For your information, Les, I am a proud veteran of the U.S. Navy, 1982-86.  And, when we went into Iraq in 2003, I DID try to re-enlist.  I was told that I was too old and too overweight.
It hurt!  So don't go branding me with your "chicken hawk" label.

Once more you fall into that convenient argument, "All they want is us to be out of their countries." 

It's a crock.  What the Islamists want, and what the Quran demands, is that the entire world submit to Islam.  That is their program, that is their goal.

Comparing them to the South in the Civil War?  Once more your sympathy lies with those who participated in one of history's great evils.  My only regret is that the Union did not hang or imprison the entire planter class and hand their plantations over to their slaves!   At the very least, they should have ""hanged Jeff Davis from that Sour Apple Tree!"  (and, for the record, I'm a sixth generation Texan and a tenth generation southerner, and a descendant of slaveholders.  My family was on the wrong side of history on that call.)

Are all wars justifiable?  No.  Was the war in Iraq justified?  I still believe it was.

Would putting a round through the head of the likes of Usama bin Laden or Mullah Omar be justified?  Hand me the fricken rifle.

[Umaril The Unfeathered]

For your information, Les, I am a proud veteran of the U.S. Navy, 1982-86.  And, when we went into Iraq in 2003, I DID try to re-enlist.  I was told that I was too old and too overweight.
It hurt!  So don't go branding me with your "chicken hawk" label.

Well we all knew that was coming, since I was called a blowhard and a wuss when I cornered Les and forced his hand on his BS.  Maybe there's a place for Les in Berkeley..

Once more you fall into that convenient argument, "All they want is us to be out of their countries."  It's a crock.  What the Islamists want, and what the Quran demands, is that the entire world submit to Islam.  That is their program, that is their goal.

Why hasn't anyone seen this? There again, with most liberals content to let the world go to hell in a handbasket as long as they satisfy themselves for the day, it's no wonder.

Comparing them to the South in the Civil War?  Once more your sympathy lies with those who participated in one of history's great evils.  My only regret is that the Union did not hang or imprison the entire planter class and hand their plantations over to their slaves!   At the very least, they should have ""hanged Jeff Davis from that Sour Apple Tree!"  (and, for the record, I'm a sixth generation Texan and a tenth generation southerner, and a descendant of slaveholders.  My family was on the wrong side of history on that call.)

Well, while we're on the subject of The Civil War and great evils,  burning Atlanta, Georgia to the ground and killing all those civilians and destroying their farms was one the North still has to answer for. 

Ironic that the North was there to free enslaved men, yet took it on themselves to destroy those who had nothing to do with the war Or slavery. But no we don't get taught that, only that the South was wrong in it's dealings. God bless the Media and PC history..

And personally, I get tired of people slapping the South all the time. There's a lot of hard working people that pound their daily salt just like the rest of us.

Are all wars justifiable?  No.  Was the war in Iraq justified?  I still believe it was.

Time will tell. Not all truths are immediately apparent. Things may yet be discovered.

[dean]

Perhaps if they quit living up to the stereotype people would quit holding it.

Of course I realize that not all Arabs, and not all Muslims, are terrorists or have terrorist sympathies.  But enough of them do that many otherwise rational Westerners - myself included - distrust and fear the lot of them.  It doesn't help when their mullahs forbid them from forming close friendships with "infidels", and teach them that lying to trick the infidel into a sense of false security is no sin.

Many of them simply ignore those teachings, of course - but enough of them don't ignore them that the veil of suspicion and hostility settles over the whole group.

Well the figures in the original post on European Islamists seem to indicate that the majority of Muslims in Europe are fairly moderate: out of 53 million there are approx 55,000 sympathising with the Islamist cause.  That is certainly not a majority so by that logic they aren't living the stereotype yet we still are perpetuating it in our media. 

We are much more likely to see people on the news protesting and shouting against something or someone, just like we're more likely to go out of our way to complain about bad service than reward good service at the store; negativity is generally more vocal.

I was talking to some friends about this topic the other day, and some part of the general consensus we came to, vague as it was, is that in many of the more infamous "Terrorist" countries that we usually bring up when talking about violent Jihadists, violence is a more readily accepted in everyday life, so therefore they are more apparently violent.  As such it does lend me towards the opinion that in many cases extremist behaviour tends to be more societal and environmental rather than specifically and solely religious.

In the modern, western first world countries we have a more options of resolving conflict, where it seems they have less, which is why you see less violence of a religious nature perpetrated in first world western christian countries.


On a somewhat related side note the worst violence of recent ages in Europe stem mainly from regional disputes rather than religious ones, and some of the worst violence was perpetrated against Muslims rather than by them, [8,000 Muslims wiped out in one particular infamous moment of history, the Srebrenica Massacre.]

By my count, and its not thorough at all, if we stack up the numbers: Over the last 100 or so years, 'terrorist' violence by political separatists/Nationalist crazies [or on a broader stroke, Non-Islamic/Jihadist based reasons] in Europe far outweigh Fundamental Islamist violence.

Sure both are horrible, but again I am at pains to try and change peoples prejudices based on the actions of a minor percentage of the population.  If we play the 'Innocent until proven guilty' game, then the Christian westerns have far more to answer for than the Islamic population in Europe, yet many make them out to be some horrid creatures that are out to get us.      Please...

Watch the documentary I mentioned earlier, or snippets of it which are readily available online.  Say what you will about Islamists, who are generally terrible fundamentalist thugs, but please don't paint such a broad stroke over the whole religion for that reason.

I'm sorry Indy, it seems like we've been battling it out particularly lately in these two threads: it's just both are interesting topics of discussion and I clearly like talking about and debating them, and figure that its a fruitful endeavour, regardless of the outcome.   Or maybe I'm just a glutton for punishment, I don't know... 

[Flick James]

lester -

You and I are kindred spirits in many ways. Your basic values and my own are very similar. You strike me as a fellow libertarian. My only criticism, and I mean this in a friendly and constructive way, is that you seem to have a very sympathetic view of the Muslim world which you do not apply to the mainly Judeo-Christian western world. If you know me at all you will know that this is not a defense of Judeo-Christianity. Far from it. Rather, just an observation that your sympathies seem to paint you as almost pro-Muslim. I'm not judging that, per se, I'm simply saying that this is going to affect how members of this board, who are by and large of the western world, respond. It also makes you appear to not have a rational view of the Muslim world. Perhaps you are simply defending a people who are not hear to defend themselves, and that I can respect, but it paints you as pro-Muslim. Just an observation and one I hope you will take as nothing more than that.

[lester1/2jr]

Well we all knew that was coming, since I was called a blowhard and a wuss when I cornered Les and forced his hand on his BS.  Maybe there's a place for Les in Berkeley..

when did you corner me on my BS, umaril?


show me specifically then I'll respond, Otherwise you are just bragging with nothing to back it up. I have no idea what you're talking about.



indiana- So you don't think, for example,  that the mujhadeen were driving the USSR out of afghanistan in the 80's? You think they were trying to TAKE OVER RUSSIA???

what abuot the insurgency in iraq? You don't think they were trying to drive the US out of Iraq? I don't understand. i would think that was pretty clear.


 yes, there is a tiny minority of muslim who want the WHOLE world to submit to radical islam. MOSt muslims, christians and other types in the middle east just want us out of out countries and al queda capitalizes on that.



and why don't you want to address the fact that our our military presence and massive security apparatus costs tons of money?

What about the deficit and debt?  I can only assume you don't understand or care about the money at interest we are borrowing daily and continue to owe to Russia, China and others. trillions.,

Very worrisome that you don't factor that in to your thinking. not very conservative.

bottom line:  I don't think I was put on this earth to fight the muslims in the middle east. muslims have been in the middle east since islam was invented and will be there long after I'm dead. I have bigger fish to fry.


here's the difference between me and you: My beliefs don't involve taking money from you. Yours involve taking money from me. and sending young men and women to their deaths in a  pretty close appproxamation of Hell.



also umaril:

Well, while we're on the subject of The Civil War and great evils,  burning Atlanta, Georgia to the ground and killing all those civilians and destroying their farms was one the North still has to answer for.  

and yet,  you said WE need to "take the gloves off"??


at any rate: I agree with you 100%. Indianasmith doesn't.  ask him why. I think the South was justified in leaving the union and Lincoln shold have respected that. Slavery was ended peacefully all over the wrld except here. 600,000 people, most of whom had nothing to do with the slave trade, dying for "humanity" does not add up. There had to have been a better way.


flick james- what would be wrong with being pro muslim? I don't understand. I'm not btw. I have nothing in common with a bunch of religious fanatics in a part of the world I will probably never go to.  I respect their desire from independence from our government which I also want. that's it.

[Flick James]

flick james- what would be wrong with being pro muslim? I don't understand. I'm not btw. I have nothing in common with a bunch of religious fanatics in a part of the world I will probably never go to.  I respect their desire from independence from our government which I also want. that's it.

I didn't say there was anything wrong with it. You did understand that it was an observation, yes? I'm simply referring to a way you come across, which does not assume anything about you personally, and how it affects responses to your posts. I thought I stated that clearly enough.

[lester1/2jr]

okay. I didn't get what you meant. My position is that the western way of life wherever it is practiced is vastly superior to like communism or islamism or whatever others are trying to do. I don't think we need to  import elements of dictatorial systems in order to fight those systems.

[Flick James]

okay. I didn't get what you meant. My position is that the western way of life wherever it is practiced is vastly superior to like communism or islamism or whatever others are trying to do. I don't think we need to  import elements of dictatorial systems in order to fight those systems.

 

[indianasmith]

Sorry I kind of abandoned the debate the last day or so . . . I'm pretty sick right now with Bronchitis, and don't have a lot of energy.  Fascinating thread, though.

One little history teacher's note, however - Slavery did not "end peacefully everywhere in the world but here."  Remember the Haitian revolt?

Secondly - Sherman ordered for the business district of Atlanta to be burned.  It was crammed full of military resources that the Confederate armies could use against him, and he could not take the stuff along or spare troops to guard it.

After the Union marched out of Atlanta, deserters from both sides, along with some runaway slaves, spread the fire all over the city.  While every war produces some civilian casualties, the evils of Sherman's march to the sea have been exaggerated by Southerners for 145 years now.

[RCMerchant]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrMCqOmsMB4
	Small | Large

[Umaril The Unfeathered]

[

Well we all knew that was coming, since I was called a blowhard and a wuss when I cornered Les and forced his hand on his BS.  Maybe there's a place for Les in Berkeley..

when did you corner me on my BS, umaril?

show me specifically then I'll respond, Otherwise you are just bragging with nothing to back it up. I have no idea what you're talking about.

Well, you DID give me a bunch of BS (your personal opinions, which to be fair, had it coming as per your own invalidation of mine and Indy's as BS as well)  and when I cornered and countered you, you took the hissy fit route and started namecalling.

Well, your bad, not mine or Indy's.


also umaril:

Well, while we're on the subject of The Civil War and great evils,  burning Atlanta, Georgia to the ground and killing all those civilians and destroying their farms was one the North still has to answer for.  

and yet,  you said WE need to "take the gloves off"??

You know damn well what I mean.  You can't fight a street fight above the waist. We're trying to win by a rulebook dictated by Congress and somewhat ineffective R.O.E. We need to adapt and overcome. 

I'm not talking about hurting innocents, either. And I think you knew that.

And I will admit, that I don't have all the answers,  but I know that our leaders should stay out of the military's decisions, let us do the job we were meant to do, or put a uniform on themselves, and do it themselves if they think they can do better.

When have we fought to win a war since WW2?  We haven't. We're not allowed to...

 

at any rate: I agree with you 100%. Indianasmith doesn't.  ask him why. I think the South was justified in leaving the union and Lincoln shold have respected that. Slavery was ended peacefully all over the wrld except here. 600,000 people, most of whom had nothing to do with the slave trade, dying for "humanity" does not add up. There had to have been a better way.

I'll tip my hat to that one.  But the thing is is that history is always written from the point of the victors, not the vanquished.  And there are a LOT of unspoken horrors that befell the Southern people at the hands of the North, that will never have a chance to be told.

And with the one-sided hatred promoted against the South in history classes and college campuses all over the U.S. (based solely on slavery and their defense of Gun Rights and their positions on religion) the real horrors will always take a backseat to the surface issues.

Liberals need to get it thru their heads..The Civil War wasn't solely about slavery. It was  a
fringe issue. It was also about individual rights and the right of people to be free of big government and to choose their own paths.  Be that as is, slavery was wrong, end of story.

And that makes me ask something else: The North "freed" the slaves. right?

If the North was so "accepting" of slaves after the war, how come it took another hundred or so years of race riots and civil disobedience to win that acceptance?  Again, slavery was only a fringe issue.

[Flick James]

Wow. How did this turn into a North/South thread?

[lester1/2jr]

when I cornered and countered you, you took the hissy fit route and started namecalling.

you never countered me nor did I ever throw a hissy fit.

I'm not talking about hurting innocents, either. And I think you knew that.

how can you take off the gloves without hurting innocents? take off one glove?

When have we fought to win a war since WW2?  We haven't. We're not allowed to...

gulf war 1?


Besides, this makes my point more than yours or his. WHy would you throw young men and women out into wars when they aren't going to be allowed to fight with their gloves off and where the press is going to sabotage them?

The difference is between:

1. fighting for our own preservation - issues of tact are not going to come up

2.the preservation of western civiliation/ allies we feel are vital. - people will likely overlook human rights issues.


and 3. simply playing at empire and being the worlds police. - you aren't really wanted so everything you do is suspect.

self preservation goes without saying and there are good arguments (none of which I agree with) for elements of #2.  #3 is basically a jobs program for beaurocrats and other well connected people in and around capitols and is generally deliterious to a nations security in every meaning of that word. Pretending our current military stature in the middle east is 1 or even 2 doesn't make it so. If it was we probably wouldn't be having this discussion we would all be at the recuruitment office and ther wolkd be very little in the press about guantanamo, abu graib etc. The proof is in the pudding, as they say.

and again I agree on all the civil war stuff.