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Author Topic: Japanese Aim to Ressurect a Mammoth  (Read 2163 times)
Raffine
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« on: January 18, 2011, 08:53:23 AM »

What could possibly go wrong . . ?

Even the image they use to illustrate the article shows the mammoth is annoyed and ready for vengence.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2011, 08:55:37 AM by Raffine » Logged

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dean
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« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2011, 10:20:48 AM »

My friend had a funny quote relating to this:

"How many times can a civilisation hunt the same species to extinction without looking like complete dicks?"


Mammoths vs humans 2: This time revenge is best served ice cold.
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« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2011, 12:53:24 PM »

What could possibly go wrong . . ?

Even the image they use to illustrate the article shows the mammoth is annoyed and ready for vengence.


Japan, it figures. Well if things go wrong, there's a potential enemy for Godzilla in his next movie  TongueOut
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« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2011, 11:22:27 PM »

I so want to see this happen!!!
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« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2011, 12:47:24 AM »

I so want to see this happen!!!

Technically, it could happen, and I want to see it too, that's for sure.

Similar experiments are under way to clone dinosaurs by turning on the dormant or "dumb" genes in birds, (their closest living relatives) and using them as the catalyst to clone the big old lizards back in existence.

I always thought of something though: aside from the "wow" and "cool" factors of seeing an extinct species walk the earth again, what lifespan would a cloned creature have, versus a naturally concieved\birthed creature?

Would there be some measure of degradation of the creature as time went on, due to it's unnatural conception, or could science conquer this possibility and allow for the creature to live a considerable lifetime?

Nutritional requirements: given it's herbivorous nature, would the standard vegetation of today have the same nutrients to sustain such a wooly mamoth as it did all those millenia ago?  There's a lot to consider here.
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Dawn's Beauty is our shining home.

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Malatu na nou karan.
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Heca, Pellani! Agabaiyane Ehlnadaya!
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Couchtr26
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« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2011, 04:46:06 AM »

I so want to see this happen!!!

Technically, it could happen, and I want to see it too, that's for sure.

Similar experiments are under way to clone dinosaurs by turning on the dormant or "dumb" genes in birds, (their closest living relatives) and using them as the catalyst to clone the big old lizards back in existence.

I always thought of something though: aside from the "wow" and "cool" factors of seeing an extinct species walk the earth again, what lifespan would a cloned creature have, versus a naturally concieved\birthed creature?

Would there be some measure of degradation of the creature as time went on, due to it's unnatural conception, or could science conquer this possibility and allow for the creature to live a considerable lifetime?

Nutritional requirements: given it's herbivorous nature, would the standard vegetation of today have the same nutrients to sustain such a wooly mamoth as it did all those millenia ago?  There's a lot to consider here.


Well, the lifespan is significantly less.  The cloned cells make the fetus essentially the age of the cloned creature.  A cloned mammoth baby is the equivalent of whatever age the mammoth was at the time cells were taken.  This may seem odd but it in essence means whatever age related complications were being experienced would be experienced by the baby as well. 

Diet is interesting as well, though I'm sure through the mammoth stomach contents one can find a nutritional guideline of the foods they were eating. 

I find the concept interesting but the practice a little odd.  It would be a one time thing would it not?  I mean who would want to go around cloning mammoths all the time to make a self sustaining group. 

Also, climate change is one thing that aided its extinction would it be able to handle the modern world?  Seems an awful lot to go through for gain.  I mean it would be interesting to see the animal alive but it would never be an accurate cross section of it as we would not have it wild and even if it was the same world it existed in would not be here. 

I think it is not worth the trouble.  However, I would want to see it happen and see what can be learned.  Maybe there is more to the idea then meets the eye.  Although, I wouldn't be surprised if you see a Japanese Mammoth Restaurant.   TongueOut
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« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2011, 08:44:01 AM »

I would like one as a pet.
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« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2011, 06:58:56 PM »

I so want to see this happen!!!

Technically, it could happen, and I want to see it too, that's for sure.

Similar experiments are under way to clone dinosaurs by turning on the dormant or "dumb" genes in birds, (their closest living relatives) and using them as the catalyst to clone the big old lizards back in existence.

I always thought of something though: aside from the "wow" and "cool" factors of seeing an extinct species walk the earth again, what lifespan would a cloned creature have, versus a naturally concieved\birthed creature?

Would there be some measure of degradation of the creature as time went on, due to it's unnatural conception, or could science conquer this possibility and allow for the creature to live a considerable lifetime?

Nutritional requirements: given it's herbivorous nature, would the standard vegetation of today have the same nutrients to sustain such a wooly mamoth as it did all those millenia ago?  There's a lot to consider here.


Well, the lifespan is significantly less.  The cloned cells make the fetus essentially the age of the cloned creature.  A cloned mammoth baby is the equivalent of whatever age the mammoth was at the time cells were taken.  This may seem odd but it in essence means whatever age related complications were being experienced would be experienced by the baby as well.

That's why I asked..I was aware of something regarding the age of a cloned creature. I thought it was a case of growing older, quicker, and not a case of pre-disposed age w\regard to the age of the creature being duplicated.  Indeed quite interesting. 

Diet is interesting as well, though I'm sure through the mammoth stomach contents one can find a nutritional guideline of the foods they were eating.

True, however with regard to plant life as it has evolved, there may be some unexpected side effects to the digestive system with regard to the changes in plant life over time.

Additionally, it's digestive system may experience some additional nutritional benefits\detriments as it adapts to newer herbivorous material it's never ingested before.

I find the concept interesting but the practice a little odd.  It would be a one time thing would it not?  I mean who would want to go around cloning mammoths all the time to make a self sustaining group.

Another possibility is, perhaps if a way to mate with elephants was found (their closest living relative) then it may be possible to actually turn on the dormant genes, and breed them down from hybrids to the point of an actual, pure-bred wooly mammoth capable of reproduction.  This is the same way the Canadian geese came back from extinction if I remember right; cross breeding with another close relative of their species.



Also, climate change is one thing that aided its extinction would it be able to handle the modern world?  Seems an awful lot to go through for gain.  I mean it would be interesting to see the animal alive but it would never be an accurate cross section of it as we would not have it wild and even if it was the same world it existed in would not be here. 

I think it is not worth the trouble.  However, I would want to see it happen and see what can be learned.  Maybe there is more to the idea then meets the eye.  Although, I wouldn't be surprised if you see a Japanese Mammoth Restaurant.   TongueOut

Well said on climate change and all that. And yes, I can see Wolly Mammoth on the menu in Tokyo.  I mean, hey...look what Chinese food did for cats and dogs  BounceGiggle TongueOut
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Tam-Riel na nou Sancremath.
Dawn's Beauty is our shining home.

An varlais, nou bala, an kynd, nou latta.
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Malatu na nou karan.
Truth is our armor.

Malatu na bala
Truth is power.

Heca, Pellani! Agabaiyane Ehlnadaya!
Be gone, outsiders! I do not fear your mortal gods!

Auri-El na nou ata, ye A, Umaril, an Aran!
Aure-El is our father, and I, Umaril, the king!
Couchtr26
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« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2011, 11:33:15 PM »

That's why I asked..I was aware of something regarding the age of a cloned creature. I thought it was a case of growing older, quicker, and not a case of pre-disposed age w\regard to the age of the creature being duplicated.  Indeed quite interesting. 

True, however with regard to plant life as it has evolved, there may be some unexpected side effects to the digestive system with regard to the changes in plant life over time.

Additionally, it's digestive system may experience some additional nutritional benefits\detriments as it adapts to newer herbivorous material it's never ingested before.

Another possibility is, perhaps if a way to mate with elephants was found (their closest living relative) then it may be possible to actually turn on the dormant genes, and breed them down from hybrids to the point of an actual, pure-bred wooly mammoth capable of reproduction.  This is the same way the Canadian geese came back from extinction if I remember right; cross breeding with another close relative of their species.

Well said on climate change and all that. And yes, I can see Wolly Mammoth on the menu in Tokyo.  I mean, hey...look what Chinese food did for cats and dogs  BounceGiggle TongueOut

Well said on diet.  I hadn't considered.  Plus there is the whole quantity mass and so forth that would be a puzzle.  There also not just the question of plant adaptation but of soil in the modern world.  Would they be able to tolerate soil as we produce it.  Quick example, part of the plants chemical make up is our own fertilizers and other chemicals.  These are not necessarily direct but can be broken down into plant in different ways and produce odd chemicals.  It is another consideration.  We have sadly altered many plants in many ways. 

I had thought about crossbreeding, the only thing that bothered me through it is you would have to create at least a few to begin producing quantity in crossbreeding that would take some time.  In the meantime, would they be able to live through all this as we have never seen a mammoth in captivity.

Also, speaking of mammoth on the menu.  There was supposed to have been an English Lord in the 1800's who thawed out mammoth from Siberia and served it to some guests.  I wish I could find reference, however,  I can't remember where I first saw it. 

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« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2011, 09:12:14 AM »


That's why I asked..I was aware of something regarding the age of a cloned creature. I thought it was a case of growing older, quicker, and not a case of pre-disposed age w\regard to the age of the creature being duplicated.  Indeed quite interesting. 

True, however with regard to plant life as it has evolved, there may be some unexpected side effects to the digestive system with regard to the changes in plant life over time.

Additionally, it's digestive system may experience some additional nutritional benefits\detriments as it adapts to newer herbivorous material it's never ingested before.

Another possibility is, perhaps if a way to mate with elephants was found (their closest living relative) then it may be possible to actually turn on the dormant genes, and breed them down from hybrids to the point of an actual, pure-bred wooly mammoth capable of reproduction.  This is the same way the Canadian geese came back from extinction if I remember right; cross breeding with another close relative of their species.

Well said on climate change and all that. And yes, I can see Wolly Mammoth on the menu in Tokyo.  I mean, hey...look what Chinese food did for cats and dogs  BounceGiggle TongueOut

Well said on diet.  I hadn't considered.  Plus there is the whole quantity mass and so forth that would be a puzzle.  There also not just the question of plant adaptation but of soil in the modern world.  Would they be able to tolerate soil as we produce it.  Quick example, part of the plants chemical make up is our own fertilizers and other chemicals.  These are not necessarily direct but can be broken down into plant in different ways and produce odd chemicals.  It is another consideration.  We have sadly altered many plants in many ways.

Good point. There were no chemicals in the days of the dinosaurs and mammals respectively. How they would affect the digestive systems of the creature would be a potential issue.

I had thought about crossbreeding, the only thing that bothered me through it is you would have to create at least a few to begin producing quantity in crossbreeding that would take some time.  In the meantime, would they be able to live through all this as we have never seen a mammoth in captivity.

Yeah they would have to survive first, and the cloned creature would have to be capable of reproduction. And, assuming they lived, one wonders if an elephant would wonder about dating one of his fore-runners  BounceGiggle

Also, speaking of mammoth on the menu.  There was supposed to have been an English Lord in the 1800's who thawed out mammoth from Siberia and served it to some guests.  I wish I could find reference, however,  I can't remember where I first saw it. 

When they had the TLC or History Channel episode where they removed a wooly mammoth from the ice in the Antarctic,  I believe they mentioned that bit about the English lord.  Wonder what that tasted like, chicken, maybe?  Wink
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Tam-Riel na nou Sancremath.
Dawn's Beauty is our shining home.

An varlais, nou bala, an kynd, nou latta.
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Malatu na nou karan.
Truth is our armor.

Malatu na bala
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Heca, Pellani! Agabaiyane Ehlnadaya!
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Auri-El na nou ata, ye A, Umaril, an Aran!
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« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2011, 09:48:39 AM »

I had thought about crossbreeding, the only thing that bothered me through it is you would have to create at least a few to begin producing quantity in crossbreeding that would take some time.

I had been thinking that might be the only way to overcome any genetic damage in a pure mammoth. Clone enough males and females to start a breeding program and weed out the problems.

Then, they need to give the mammoths cyborg implants and mount weapons on them.

Or use them in some kind of dangerous and humiliating game show.

Or make something even more expensive than Kobe beef. Mammoth sashimi. Yum.
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« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2011, 09:55:21 AM »


Then, they need to give the mammoths cyborg implants and mount weapons on them.

Or use them in some kind of dangerous and humiliating game show.

Or make something even more expensive than Kobe beef. Mammoth sashimi. Yum.

You could peel one and carpet your whole den.
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« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2011, 11:32:39 PM »

I had thought about crossbreeding, the only thing that bothered me through it is you would have to create at least a few to begin producing quantity in crossbreeding that would take some time.

I had been thinking that might be the only way to overcome any genetic damage in a pure mammoth. Clone enough males and females to start a breeding program and weed out the problems.

Then, they need to give the mammoths cyborg implants and mount weapons on them.

Or use them in some kind of dangerous and humiliating game show.

Or make something even more expensive than Kobe beef. Mammoth sashimi. Yum.

The mammoth tank is the wave of the future.  Don't ruin my plans for world domination by putting it on the internet for all to see.  The 35th Armored Mammoth Regiment will be marching shortly. 
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« Reply #13 on: January 24, 2011, 10:08:26 AM »

I think it is both simpler and more complicated than some seem to think.

Mammoth are not from all that long ago, in evolutionary terms (IRC, the material the Japanese propose to use is from a 12K year old source; mammoth survived up until 5700 years ago on some Alaskan islands) and if they are not able to get complete 'mammoth' DNA they will have to 'fill in' with elephant.  The genes would have to be 'inserted' just as they are in genetically modified food species today.  In that case, you would end up with a genetically modified elephant - or a genetically modified mammoth, depending on the proportions. Neither one nor the other: potentially an elephant with odd morphology and extra hair or a bald mammoth with some elephant characterisitcs.  They won't know what to expect: the elephant genome has not been 'mapped', let alone deciphered, never mind the mammoths'!

And it seems to me the embryo, regardless of its genetic 'purity', would not be viable if it was not biochemically compatible with the host mother.  If chemicals pervasive in the mother's system were to be inherently toxic to the fetus, it would not survive to be born. Sure, some chemicals do not cross to the fetus in gestation, but surely some that would be 'new' to a mammoth would be present throughout the host mother's system.

Enough mammoth remains have been found that the diet of the mammoth has been quite well established as being primarily grasses.  I'd be very surprised if wild grasses have changed that much in the last 10K years, and they are still abundantly available.  As are the original environmental conditions.  If the baby survives the 'pollution' in the host mother's system, chances are good that the animal can eat whatever the mom can (elephants eat grass hay), when the time comes.

The cloning will be the hard part.
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Couchtr26
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« Reply #14 on: January 28, 2011, 06:39:38 PM »

I think it is both simpler and more complicated than some seem to think.

Mammoth are not from all that long ago, in evolutionary terms (IRC, the material the Japanese propose to use is from a 12K year old source; mammoth survived up until 5700 years ago on some Alaskan islands) and if they are not able to get complete 'mammoth' DNA they will have to 'fill in' with elephant.  The genes would have to be 'inserted' just as they are in genetically modified food species today.  In that case, you would end up with a genetically modified elephant - or a genetically modified mammoth, depending on the proportions. Neither one nor the other: potentially an elephant with odd morphology and extra hair or a bald mammoth with some elephant characterisitcs.  They won't know what to expect: the elephant genome has not been 'mapped', let alone deciphered, never mind the mammoths'!

And it seems to me the embryo, regardless of its genetic 'purity', would not be viable if it was not biochemically compatible with the host mother.  If chemicals pervasive in the mother's system were to be inherently toxic to the fetus, it would not survive to be born. Sure, some chemicals do not cross to the fetus in gestation, but surely some that would be 'new' to a mammoth would be present throughout the host mother's system.

Enough mammoth remains have been found that the diet of the mammoth has been quite well established as being primarily grasses.  I'd be very surprised if wild grasses have changed that much in the last 10K years, and they are still abundantly available.  As are the original environmental conditions.  If the baby survives the 'pollution' in the host mother's system, chances are good that the animal can eat whatever the mom can (elephants eat grass hay), when the time comes.

The cloning will be the hard part.

I understand you Newt.   Thumbup  Instead of using my earlier Pseudo-science, I should have stated more directly I'm against it more ethically then anything else.  It is just leading into some territory that I don't think we can handle at the moment.  Such ideas as resurrecting species and further the idea that such things will inevitably lead to cloning of humans which I don't think is a subject we can deal with now as a society. 
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