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Author Topic: I think Im an atheist.  (Read 12259 times)
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« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2011, 07:46:48 PM »

RC - you are never going to offend me because you are honest, and upfront, about who you are and what you think.  Even though we have never met, I think of you as a friend, and I would love nothing better than someday to sit down over a pizza and discuss - and maybe solve - all the world's problems with you.

AllHallows - You too are a friend, although frankly I find your use of the phrase "fundamentalist tripe" to be a bit offensive.  Then, you and I have never been really big on sparing one another's feelings!  Of COURSE Jesus was human.  He had a human body, and he ate, drank, and excreted the way any other human does.  BUT - and this is, I think, an area that will forever separate us - if He was ONLY human - just a mortal man - then frankly, most of His teachings would not make a great  deal of sense.  Everything he taught, even the lovely passages in the Sermon on the Mount that non-Christians the world over generally profess to admire, was rooted in an understanding of His being MORE than just a man. To discount Jesus' divinity is just as great an affront to Christianity as it is to discount His humanity!    Jesus clearly thought of Himself as being immortal and one with God.  All four Gospels show him acting in a manner that God alone could do - He forgave sins, He accepted worship, He said that He would judge the living and the dead, and that all men's salvation depended on believing and obeying what He said.  For anyone who was ONLY a mortal man to say such things would have been either madness or the height of hubris.  I live my life in daily gratitude for the sacrifice that Christ made on the cross.  But that sacrifice would have little meaning if not for the Resurrection that followed, which proved His Divinity.  And the Resurrection is the cornerstone of my faith and the way I live my life.

One other note - back to you, RC - in your initial response.  You commented that "I don't think the Scriptures are a factual report of what was going on."  If that is true, then my life is built around a fundamental falsehood.  However, it's a falsehood  that's made me a fairly happy, well-balanced person, and everybody needs some kind of belief system to get them through this world.  Mine tells me to love others and hurt no one, so I'm going to hang onto it no matter what.

  However, I will say this - if the four Gospels are NOT an accurate history of the life of Christ, then no such history exists.  Only the four New Testament gospels, and the epistles that follow them,  were written from eyewitness testimony, during such a short timeframe that the witnesses of the life of Jesus would still be alive.  The earliest of the Gnostic gospels that people fuss so much about were written over a century after Christ died, and were rejected by the followers of Christ not only because of their bizarre theology but also because of the fact that all of them were forgeries - they were ascribed to various disciples of Jesus (Peter, Paul, Thomas, Judas, etc.) but were written  long after those disciples were dead. 

If you leave aside all matters of theology and reason and ONLY apply the standard tests of history to the Gospels, they would emerge as the earliest and most accurate commentaries on the life of Christ.

Hope I have offended none, and contributed something useful.  One thing I love about this board is the fact that we can have conversations like this without them degenerating into shouting matches and flame wars.  Peace to all.
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« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2011, 08:45:56 PM »


 Thumbup  A thoughtful response, AndyC.  There is a very good reason that Marx referred to religion as "the opium of the people" - people were supposed simply to acccept and not think.   Of course that can apply to anything that relies upon unquestioning acceptance.



I only mention this because I just the other day came across this page of misquotations while researching something else, but that is a misinterpretation of what Marx wrote.  He was saying religion is a comfort or may be the only good thing in an otherwise bleak existence; religion lifts (or keeps) people "up" in trying times, logical or illogical.


The misquotation is when Marx is quoted as saying "Religion is the opiate of the masses."   I quoted him correctly as having written "Religion...is the opium of the people"

In context: (also from Wiki)

"...Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions. The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo."

My emphasis.  Yes religion lifts people up - but separates them from reality to do so - comforts, numbs and provides an escape - just like a drug. Opiates alleviate pain and provide sedation.  I don't think I am misinterpreting in the way I offered it.
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« Reply #17 on: January 22, 2011, 10:29:59 PM »

It's a tough question to answer and ultimately a very personal matter as to what one chooses to believe. Personally I think I am a believer but also think an awful lot of religion is just mythology too. It is a means of controlling the masses but that doesn't necessarily make it entirely bad. There's a lot of moral value to be found in most of the Earth's most predominant religions and I cannot deny that I think many religious people have done a lot of good in this world (although no doubt some did great evil in the name of religion as well). What do I believe? Sometimes I'm not entirely certain. I personally believe in Jesus and his teachings and what he stands for yet I also see great value in the teachings of Buddha too. I don't really believe in Hell as a burning inferno or Heaven as a golden paradise (as I certainly wouldn't want to live in a golden paradise) although I sort of believe they do exist in some fashion although I personally suspect Heaven is simply becoming one with the universe and the Creator. I don't believe people of other religions are necessarily going to Hell for example nor is it my place to judge them as who's knows if the different names aren't just different takes on the same divine Creator? I think I more or less agree with AndyC that fully understanding God may in fact be beyond our comprehension.
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« Reply #18 on: January 22, 2011, 10:40:15 PM »

Iím with Andy in how I identify myself as a Christian.  I believe in God and Jesus, but I donít make a big to do about it around others.  I see nothing bad about people who are good and try to live a moral life with no belief of a promise of reward or fear of punishment to motivate them, as long as they are respectful of others beliefs. 

I only know what I know, and I see that you are a good person and have faith in love and that certainly hasnít gone unnoticed by me.  I just hope that you find peace in whatever you decide to call yourselfÖatheist, agnostic, lugoseist.   


Lugosiest. I like that.  Thumbup Im a Lugosiest.  Smile

The responses to this have been very thoughtful and amazing. Religion is supposed to be a "taboo" subject....but NOT to discuss it seems...I dunno....you HAVE to discuss religion ...blind faith in anything seems dangerous.
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« Reply #19 on: January 22, 2011, 11:38:21 PM »

...Of COURSE Jesus was human.  He had a human body, and he ate, drank, and excreted the way any other human does...  
...To discount Jesus' divinity is just as great an affront to Christianity as it is to discount His humanity...!
So... you admit it?   Smile Bluesad  And just to show you there are no hard feelings, I think you "excreted" more than Jesus ever did!  Wink
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« Reply #20 on: January 23, 2011, 12:36:59 AM »

Admit Jesus' humanity?  I never denied it!

However, I am guilty as charged on the count of excessive excrescence.  Now, if you excuse me, I have to go take the Browns to the Super Bowl . . .
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« Reply #21 on: January 23, 2011, 03:12:14 AM »

Hey RC, don't sweat it, you don't have to believe if you don't want to.  It's all optional.

I believe in something greater than ourselves - call it God if you want.  I don't think "he's" a person or anything.  I don't know what to call it.  But I take great comfort in knowing that I'm not the epitome of intelligence or design in this vast Universe of ours.  It would be a sad day for inteliigent beings if we are the top of the design tree.

I look at it this way:  a cockroach shares his existence with us but try explaining humans to him and he wouldn't have a clue.  He just doesn't have the software to cope with the complexity of who and what we are.

I think God and humans are that way too.
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« Reply #22 on: January 23, 2011, 09:47:53 AM »

Hey RC, don't sweat it, you don't have to believe if you don't want to.  It's all optional.

I believe in something greater than ourselves - call it God if you want.  I don't think "he's" a person or anything.  I don't know what to call it.  But I take great comfort in knowing that I'm not the epitome of intelligence or design in this vast Universe of ours.  It would be a sad day for inteliigent beings if we are the top of the design tree.

I look at it this way:  a cockroach shares his existence with us but try explaining humans to him and he wouldn't have a clue.  He just doesn't have the software to cope with the complexity of who and what we are.

I think God and humans are that way too.

I do think there is a higher power of some type-but-as you say-it's waaay beyond my comprehension of what that would possibly be. I PRAY we are not the top of the food chain-now THATS scary!  Buggedout
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« Reply #23 on: January 23, 2011, 03:27:24 PM »

I do think there is a higher power of some type-but-as you say-it's waaay beyond my comprehension of what that would possibly be. I PRAY we are not the top of the food chain-now THATS scary!  Buggedout

Well, I do hope we're at the top of the food chain, even if I'd like to think there's an intelligence greater than ours.

But what you describe is the definition of agnosticism. The word "agnostic" literally means "without knowledge." The agnostic believes that the nature of a deity, or even it's existence is either unknown or unknowable. People tend to lump agnostics in with atheists when the truth is an agnostic can lean just as far toward the theistic end of the spectrum. I would go as far as to say that most agnostics lean toward some type of faith, but have trouble accepting some of the specific beliefs as literal truth. They believe there must be something, but we don't know what it is. I've met people in ministry who believe that, but are also able to reconcile it with their Christian faith. Being agnostic simply means you don't believe anybody has all the answers. I see that as a healthy attitude that allows us to appreciate and relate to those who don't believe exactly what we believe.

Now, I do draw a line between real agnostic theism and people who say "I believe in God, but I don't believe in organized religion" because they had a bad experience as kids that put them off going to church (being scolded by b***hy old maids in huge hats and a gallon of cheap perfume, for example), or they're just too lazy or self-absorbed to belong to anything, whether it be a church or a service club or some other community activity requiring a commitment of time and energy. That's not agnosticism. It's an excuse to sleep in on Sunday.
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« Reply #24 on: January 23, 2011, 11:06:57 PM »


Now, I do draw a line between real agnostic theism and people who say "I believe in God, but I don't believe in organized religion" because they had a bad experience as kids that put them off going to church
Depends on if they're Catholic or not though.  Frankly, I grew up Catholic and while my faith has never wavered over the years, the Catholic Church in and of itself has so many flaws within it's system that many people out there tend to disassociate, myself included.  But, I will be going to Church this Sunday, first time in nearly 13 years.
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« Reply #25 on: January 24, 2011, 11:14:08 AM »

RC -

I have had extremely fascinating discussions with Indy about this, both in threads and through PM. I love discussions with Indy because he is an intelligent man whom I can disagree with and it never gets ugly. This is well-covered territory between the two of us. I am a deist. I won't go into a detailed description of what that is, if you're interested you can go to deism.com and that will provide a pretty decent overview of my basic beliefs, although I have my own personal differences with what's there just as everyone does about the Bible or the Quran or any other religious text.

I am not an atheist. In fact, I am passionately not and atheist. Deism for me is the only belief system that makes any sense at all to me, and I am also a former Christian. One thing Indy and I are in total agreement on is that this notion of the universe being an accident is inconceivable. Everything observes an order. I've gotten into arguments with people over the existence of order and existence of chaos and so on. Order is self-evident, everything follows laws, and to fail to acknowledge them or refer to it as an accident is extremely disrespectful of this massive mechanism that is the universe. Even chaos is subject to the ordered laws of the universe. Chaos is simply something that appears random but only because it is part of such a bigger order that we cannot see it, and so it appears random. It can be reasonably argued that chaos may not even exist. Sorry, nihilists, but you can't escape it, try as you might.

I don't get how people can see the universe as a big accident. I can't see how, at this point, with all that our probing science and technology has seen of the universe, that there are still those that are atheists, or at least haven't yet ruled out this ridiculous "accident" notion.
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« Reply #26 on: January 25, 2011, 04:06:15 AM »

RC -

I have had extremely fascinating discussions with Indy about this, both in threads and through PM. I love discussions with Indy because he is an intelligent man whom I can disagree with and it never gets ugly. This is well-covered territory between the two of us. I am a deist. I won't go into a detailed description of what that is, if you're interested you can go to deism.com and that will provide a pretty decent overview of my basic beliefs, although I have my own personal differences with what's there just as everyone does about the Bible or the Quran or any other religious text.

I am not an atheist. In fact, I am passionately not and atheist. Deism for me is the only belief system that makes any sense at all to me, and I am also a former Christian. One thing Indy and I are in total agreement on is that this notion of the universe being an accident is inconceivable. Everything observes an order. I've gotten into arguments with people over the existence of order and existence of chaos and so on. Order is self-evident, everything follows laws, and to fail to acknowledge them or refer to it as an accident is extremely disrespectful of this massive mechanism that is the universe. Even chaos is subject to the ordered laws of the universe. Chaos is simply something that appears random but only because it is part of such a bigger order that we cannot see it, and so it appears random. It can be reasonably argued that chaos may not even exist. Sorry, nihilists, but you can't escape it, try as you might.

I don't get how people can see the universe as a big accident. I can't see how, at this point, with all that our probing science and technology has seen of the universe, that there are still those that are atheists, or at least haven't yet ruled out this ridiculous "accident" notion.

Well, the "accident" portrayal is a bit facile. Speaking from my own point of view, I do not discount the universe as it is. In fact, when thinking about the whys and wherefores of why this universe exists at all, I will admit to complete befuddlement. Why is there something instead of nothing? And why does this something follow rules we can endlessly fumble at trying to figure out? That's what science is at its base, performing experiments to figure out why the universe works the way it does. Reality does follow rules, and we humans are in a fool's game to endlessly try and figure out those rules.

At this point it becomes pretty abstract, but I do not buy the idea that there necessarily has to be a central intelligence to the universe who can be termed "God." Yes, the world we live in follows rules. There is implicate order out of chaos. Does that de facto argue for the existence of a higher intelligence? I would argue that that is not necessarily the case.

I would, and will, argue that the universe simply IS. The idea of a "God" creator is very parsimonious, but it is not the only possible explanation.

I am continually inspired by the mysteriousness of the world we live in. It's one of the driving forces of my life. I don't think the idea that it may be possible that there is not a driving intelligence at the center of it all is ridiculous.
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« Reply #27 on: January 25, 2011, 09:39:59 AM »

RC -

I have had extremely fascinating discussions with Indy about this, both in threads and through PM. I love discussions with Indy because he is an intelligent man whom I can disagree with and it never gets ugly. This is well-covered territory between the two of us. I am a deist. I won't go into a detailed description of what that is, if you're interested you can go to deism.com and that will provide a pretty decent overview of my basic beliefs, although I have my own personal differences with what's there just as everyone does about the Bible or the Quran or any other religious text.

I am not an atheist. In fact, I am passionately not and atheist. Deism for me is the only belief system that makes any sense at all to me, and I am also a former Christian. One thing Indy and I are in total agreement on is that this notion of the universe being an accident is inconceivable. Everything observes an order. I've gotten into arguments with people over the existence of order and existence of chaos and so on. Order is self-evident, everything follows laws, and to fail to acknowledge them or refer to it as an accident is extremely disrespectful of this massive mechanism that is the universe. Even chaos is subject to the ordered laws of the universe. Chaos is simply something that appears random but only because it is part of such a bigger order that we cannot see it, and so it appears random. It can be reasonably argued that chaos may not even exist. Sorry, nihilists, but you can't escape it, try as you might.

I don't get how people can see the universe as a big accident. I can't see how, at this point, with all that our probing science and technology has seen of the universe, that there are still those that are atheists, or at least haven't yet ruled out this ridiculous "accident" notion.

Well, the "accident" portrayal is a bit facile. Speaking from my own point of view, I do not discount the universe as it is. In fact, when thinking about the whys and wherefores of why this universe exists at all, I will admit to complete befuddlement. Why is there something instead of nothing? And why does this something follow rules we can endlessly fumble at trying to figure out? That's what science is at its base, performing experiments to figure out why the universe works the way it does. Reality does follow rules, and we humans are in a fool's game to endlessly try and figure out those rules.

At this point it becomes pretty abstract, but I do not buy the idea that there necessarily has to be a central intelligence to the universe who can be termed "God." Yes, the world we live in follows rules. There is implicate order out of chaos. Does that de facto argue for the existence of a higher intelligence? I would argue that that is not necessarily the case.

I would, and will, argue that the universe simply IS. The idea of a "God" creator is very parsimonious, but it is not the only possible explanation.

I am continually inspired by the mysterious of the world we live in. It's one of the driving forces of my life. I don't think the idea that it may be possible that there is not a driving intelligence at the center of it all is ridiculous.

I disagree with you on only one count, science, and our trying to figure out the laws of the universe is not a fool's game, despite our fumbling about. However, your being inspired by the mysteries of the world and the universe makes you ripe for deism.
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« Reply #28 on: January 25, 2011, 02:26:39 PM »

.

Now, I do draw a line between real agnostic theism and people who say "I believe in God, but I don't believe in organized religion" because they had a bad experience as kids that put them off going to church (being scolded by b***hy old maids in huge hats and a gallon of cheap perfume, for example), or they're just too lazy or self-absorbed to belong to anything, whether it be a church or a service club or some other community activity requiring a commitment of time and energy. That's not agnosticism. It's an excuse to sleep in on Sunday.


Usually and so far I am spot on with you Andy, but this bit gives me umbrage... I just don't find religion relevant to my life. 
God, yes, doing good yes, making the world better by works yes, but the gathering together for the celebration thereof, nah. 

Planting a tree, volunteering, or just loving and teaching your children right, all serve god's will better than a thousand hymns. 

-Ed
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« Reply #29 on: January 26, 2011, 10:01:47 AM »

Sorry, nihilists, but you can't escape it, try as you might.

I don't get how people can see the universe as a big accident. I can't see how, at this point, with all that our probing science and technology has seen of the universe, that there are still those that are atheists, or at least haven't yet ruled out this ridiculous "accident" notion.

A Nihilist may say, "It's my nothingness that only matters to me".

Now, I do draw a line between real agnostic theism and people who say "I believe in God, but I don't believe in organized religion" because they had a bad experience as kids that put them off going to church (being scolded by b***hy old maids in huge hats and a gallon of cheap perfume, for example), or they're just too lazy or self-absorbed to belong to anything, whether it be a church or a service club or some other community activity requiring a commitment of time and energy. That's not agnosticism. It's an excuse to sleep in on Sunday.

Why would an agnostic go to church regularly? Since when are all churches always institutions of community service? They can sometimes be holy college fraternities, that perpetuate the good ol' boy system of knowing the right people. Whatever, most charities just want your money anyhow, so when I'm able to I give them money-- feed an Ethiopian baby rice for a week or two. I also open doors for people who aren't middle to upper-class white males-- I consider myself working-class, I'm not going to open doors for people who may be my boss: f@$k them. I may actually call the Shriner's hospital today so I can volunteer, so I can do something better with my time as I'm unemployed and I haven't seen too many openings recently, I figure I might as well do something useful with my time instead of pondering the existence of god-- How can I know? Why should I care? (Please don't bother trying to find her, she's not there). But truthfully, I really don't know, I think there could be something out there-- but then why does it allow Ethiopian babies to have it so bad?
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