I think Im an atheist.

[Jim H]

You said people are arrogant because they have the audacity to claim to know the Universe, then two sentences later made such claims yourself as you say extreme atheists and extreme religious people see things that are contrary to their beliefs yet deny they exist.

What, exactly, would a hardline atheist deny exists that is contrary to their beliefs except something that requires rather audacious claims about the nature of the universe?

[Flick James]

You said people are arrogant because they have the audacity to claim to know the Universe, then two sentences later made such claims yourself as you say extreme atheists and extreme religious people see things that are contrary to their beliefs yet deny they exist.

What, exactly, would a hardline atheist deny exists that is contrary to their beliefs except something that requires rather audacious claims about the nature of the universe?

Okay, fair enough, but assuming I am lumping all atheists and all people of faith under a single presumptious banner (which I am not) then I would be guilty of contradiction or a lack of integrity, not hypocrisy.

You may want to acknowledge that I was qualifying my statement a bit by referring to people on the far extremes of either side, not all atheists and not all people of faith. Surely you can recongize a difference between a hardline atheist who rejects all forms of spritual belief or higher order as not possible (such atheists exist) and one who simply rejects religion and the notion of a "God." Yes? Just as I'm sure you can distinquish between a person of moderate and fairly open-minded faith in God and a hardline fundamentalist who advocates killing in the name of God. In that respect, I do not find much difference between those two extremes. The extreme atheist I refer to is certain there is no higher order, no force that guided existence or the Universe, and is more akin to a nihilist than a reasonable person. Such a person will have a similar knee-jerk reaction to any mention of anything contrary to that claim as a fundamentalist Christian would have to any evidence suggesting that the Bible is anything short of the literal and perfect Word of God.

Did that clarify things a bit more? If you've got a problem with my position, then fine, I can respect that. But let's refrain from name-calling, shall we? Or at least find a word that is appropriate. A hypocrite I am not.

[RCMerchant]

I dunno. I shouldnt have started this thread. Politics and religion-you know the saying. The reason I started it because I lost faith in an ancient belief that seems to do more harm then good. I just dont mean Christianity. I dont just mean Muslim. I mean ALL religions. I feel its better to just treat people like human beings and f**k the big book of rules and rituals. Use common sense. Use your heart-or soul-or whatever. I dont claim-CANT-claim to know the mysteries of life-and any relgion that claims to be the "only" one are arrogant and only feed into the polariztion of the world.

Sorry to jump into this...but I felt I started this thread-I should say someting. WHO CARES???? Lets just love each other-no matter what your religion is-isnt that the bottom line?  

(Unless your a Satanist,of course.... )

EDIT: What I said does not mean to imply that your religion is wrong. If it works for you-GREAT-just dont push it on others. You like Christian-I like Nothing. You like Adam Sandler-I like Lugosi. WE CAN LIVE TOGETHER.

It's predjudice-like racism.

[Allhallowsday]

I dunno. I shouldnt have started this thread. Politics and religion-you know the saying. The reason I started it because I lost faith in an ancient belief that seems to do more harm then good. I just dont mean Christianity. I dont just mean Muslim. I mean ALL religions. I feel its better to just treat people like human beings and f**k the big book of rules and rituals. Use common sense. Use your heart-or soul-or whatever. I dont claim-CANT-claim to know the mysteries of life-and any relgion that claims to be the "only" one are arrogant and only feed into the polariztion of the world.
Sorry to jump into this...but I felt I started this thread-I should say someting. WHO CARES???? Lets just love each other-no matter what your religion is-isnt that the bottom line?  
(Unless your a Satanist,of course.... )
EDIT: What I said does not mean to imply that your religion is wrong. If it works for you-GREAT-just dont push it on others. You like Christian-I like Nothing. You like Adam Sandler-I like Lugosi. WE CAN LIVE TOGETHER.

Okay.  Don't worry 'bout it.  Yet no one will answer my question.  Here 'tis:

...Of COURSE Jesus was human.  He had a human body, and he ate, drank, and excreted the way any other human does... 

What I wonder is... if Jesus excreted,  could these holy turds still be found in the earth, like, arrowheads or fossilized bone??    Where are these holy excretions?   

[RCMerchant]

To answer your last question-bout turds-
Turds dont fossilize.They act as fertilizer-or dogs eat it.
I get yer point. God s**ts? Naw. Gods dont eat.Gods dont s**t. Gods.....dont. There are no gods.


Except for Lugosi.....but Im leaning to the Flying Spagetti Monster. Eh. Im gonna make my own little "god" universe. Have prophets and...and...stuff.

[Allhallowsday]

To answer your last question-bout turds-
Turds dont fossilize.They act as fertilizer-or dogs eat it.
I get yer point. God s**ts? Naw. Gods dont eat.Gods dont s**t. Gods.....dont. There are no gods.


Except for Lugosi.....but Im leaning to the Flying Spagetti Monster. Eh. Im gonna make my own little "god" universe. Have prophets and...and...stuff.

Ah you take all the fun outta me bein' silly.    

Oh!  And by the way, under the right conditions, turds will fossilize.  
http://www.neatorama.com/2007/06/25/gluing-oldest-fossilized-human-turd-back-together/  
 

[RCMerchant]

OK-here it is-
Christ was human. His religion -and the fanatics who killed for it-was no different then the fanatics that kill for Charles Manson. If you try to tell me that the Christian-or Muslim is not a religion of intolerence-history says different. Manson killed for his beliefs-you kill for yours. DEAD IS DEAD. People can excuse murder any way they want. BUT DEAD IS DEAD. I aint saying I wouldnt kill some one. I could. I would. But I wont cloak it behind a religious or political ideoligy. I'll kill them cuz I want them dead. No regrets. No apoligizes to phony leaders or gods. Ill do it because some one f**ks with me.

To answer your last question-bout turds-
Turds dont fossilize.They act as fertilizer-or dogs eat it.
I get yer point. God s**ts? Naw. Gods dont eat.Gods dont s**t. Gods.....dont. There are no gods.


Except for Lugosi.....but Im leaning to the Flying Spagetti Monster. Eh. Im gonna make my own little "god" universe. Have prophets and...and...stuff.

Ah you take all the fun outta me bein' silly.     

Oh!  And by the way, under the right conditions, turds will fossilize. 
http://www.neatorama.com/2007/06/25/gluing-oldest-fossilized-human-turd-back-together/ 

Dam. I gotta rethink my whole outlook on life!

[Allhallowsday]

OK-here it is-
Christ was human. His religion -and the fanatics who killed for it-was no different then the fanatics that kill for Charles Manson. If you try to tell me that the Christian-or Muslim is not a religion of intolerence-history says different. Manson killed for his beliefs-you kill for yours. DEAD IS DEAD. People can excuse murder any way they want. BUT DEAD IS DEAD. I aint saying I wouldnt kill some one. I could. I would. But I wont cloak it behind a religious or political ideoligy. I'll kill them cuz I want them dead. No regrets. No apoligizes to phony leaders or gods. Ill do it because some one f**ks with me.

This is why I love talkin' wit choo on the phone.  Not.   

[RCMerchant]

That image just floored me. I'm back to a quivering Puritan.

[Jim H]

Okay, fair enough, but assuming I am lumping all atheists and all people of faith under a single presumptious banner (which I am not) then I would be guilty of contradiction or a lack of integrity, not hypocrisy.

That's not what I was getting at.  You said, basically, that you thought it was bad/impossible to make such extreme claim(s) about the universe ("they are arrogant because they have the audacity to claim to know the Universe") , and did just that a scant while later ("they are ignorant because only people of such extreme can see things in the world around them that are contrary to their stolid "belief," yet refuse to believe they exist").  You're basically stating flat out you know there are things that exist that are contrary to hardline atheistic beliefs, which to me is an extreme claim about your own knowledge of the nature of the universe.  

I agree I shouldn't be throwing around a term like hypocrisy; for that I apologize.  Especially since in this case it may be just my own interpretation of your words, or it could have been accidental for that matter.  For what it's worth though, if I say something hypocritical, feel free to call me on it.  We all do it now and again.  

[Rev. Powell]

You like Adam Sandler-I like Lugosi. WE CAN LIVE TOGETHER.

I'm sorry, but we can't live together in peace as long as you go around irresponsibly claiming that I like Adam Sandler! 

[RCMerchant]

It's good to see diveresty in beliefs get a forum.....but sometimes it seems to do more harm than good. Discusion is good....but fanatics should...I dunno-quit being fanatics to the point that you have to make the other guy KNOWS YOUR RIGHT AND THEY ARE WRONG. If their religion entails that they get in my face-well-sure-Ill fight em. Dont force your s**t. Wanna fanatic? Im a fanatic agnostic.  Dont physically push yer s**t on me. I aint pushing

You like Adam Sandler-I like Lugosi. WE CAN LIVE TOGETHER.

I'm sorry, but we can't live together in peace as long as you go around irresponsibly claiming that I like Adam Sandler!  

I would-NEVER say that ,Oh REVERAND! Forgive for sins I Know not Of!

Or Not or I know not If!
Or If i no knot!
And thats the most ridiculous thing I ever hoid!

[Mofo Rising]

Absolute belief is some scary stuff. It's easy to characterize in fundamentalism, but it pops up everywhere. It doesn't matter what map you're using (religion, politics, science), once you believe you have every unassailable answer you can start justifying some truly heinous actions. Fanatical belief is something I find truly troubling, and it seems as if it's built in to the human condition. Once somebody gets in their head that they are truly right, that's not the sort of person who will ever leave you alone.

I'm in sympathy with AndyC's view of religion and its role in forming communities. I don't believe in any of the major religions, but I can't deny their importance in forming communities. What other activity can replace a church as a central hub in large groups of people? The church, in America at least, is central to so many activities that people really care about and actually matter. Marriage, funerals, the church is a central lynch-pin to so many of the things that truly affect our lives. For better or worse, the church provides a guide point, and it gets large groups of people together and functioning as a block.

Without religion, which activity replaces this central function? I don't see any. It can't be business, which is almost completely immoral in its pursuit of profit. Politics? I don't think anybody could see that as a viable alternative (a callback to the unpleasantness of the Communist Party).

The church is the sole institution that speaks to all of these things. But they do so by calling upon rituals and beliefs that I have no faith in whatsoever. But there's nothing to replace it. Unless somebody creates something new, or points to something I haven't noticed, there's nothing out there.

Also, turds do fossilize, and there are many people out there who have made their career's by studying coprolites. Fascinating stuff, really.

[indianasmith]

VucX, I think you've made your positions clear.
AHD - I am so very sorry I ever made the "excretion" comment.  You're never going to let me live it down, are you?
RC - don't be sorry you started this thread - it's one of the best, most wide-ranging, and fascinating discussions we've ever had on here, and most of us have behaved pretty well.  If I may gently correct one comment you made above - whether he was God or not, there is one way in which Christ was NOTHING like Manson or Muhammad - Christ never told his followers to kill in the name of their faith.  NEVER.  Christians that later took up the sword in His name did so in violation of everything He ever taught.
To everyone else - kudos for a great discussion!

[Flick James]

Okay, fair enough, but assuming I am lumping all atheists and all people of faith under a single presumptious banner (which I am not) then I would be guilty of contradiction or a lack of integrity, not hypocrisy.

That's not what I was getting at.  You said, basically, that you thought it was bad/impossible to make such extreme claim(s) about the universe ("they are arrogant because they have the audacity to claim to know the Universe") , and did just that a scant while later ("they are ignorant because only people of such extreme can see things in the world around them that are contrary to their stolid "belief," yet refuse to believe they exist").  You're basically stating flat out you know there are things that exist that are contrary to hardline atheistic beliefs, which to me is an extreme claim about your own knowledge of the nature of the universe.  

I agree I shouldn't be throwing around a term like hypocrisy; for that I apologize.  Especially since in this case it may be just my own interpretation of your words, or it could have been accidental for that matter.  For what it's worth though, if I say something hypocritical, feel free to call me on it.  We all do it now and again.  

When did I ever claim to know the Universe? I've never done so. I've stated my beliefs throughout this thread on a number of occasions, I am humbled by the Universe, and I allow myself to be open to whatever the Universe shows me. At no point have I ever claimed to know God or know the Universe. Nobody can make that claim. That's my whole point. Hardline atheists claim they "know" there is no God or governing force in the Universe. Hardline fundamentalists claim they "know" there is a God and even go so far as to dictate his behaviors and plans for us. These are both extremist claims, and in my opinion both equally arrogant. I get into debates with people all the time from both extremes, and in my experience both have an almost rabid confrontational posture. My beliefs put me at odds with both. It's something I've lived with for a long time.

I certainly can't call you a hypocrite, Jim H, because you're not claiming a religious or moral stance that you don't possess. That's hyposcrisy. If I think there is a flaw in your reasoning, then I'll point it out. I expect the same out of anybody who chooses to engage. It's part of the stimulation of it for me. I just got a little upset with being called a hypocrite when I didn't demonstrate any hyposcrisy.