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Author Topic: I think Im an atheist.  (Read 62594 times)
indianasmith
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« Reply #45 on: January 27, 2011, 06:47:00 PM »

Hey, Flick - I respect your disbelief in Christianity, but I also know that if I repeated a falsehood you would want me to call you on it.  The whole notion of parallels between the narrative of Christ's life - especially the whole dying and rising again phenomena - was pretty much made up out of the whole cloth by late 19th and early 20th century scholars who were anxious to discredit Christianity as much as possible. THE GOLDEN BOUGH is a classic example, which contains several obvious distortions.   Both Osiris and Horus have been cited as parallels to Jesus, but when you go back to the original myths the parallels simply aren't there.  Modern commentators either severely distorted the details of the original stories or else fabricated them.  Now some myths - like the cult of Mithras, which in its fully developed form emerged about the middle of the second century - DID include a dying and rising savior figure, but every one of those myth cycles POST dates Christianity by a century or so.  Since Christianity was the fastest growing religion in the Roman Empire by that point, it makes sense that cults trying to gain followers would copy some of its elements.

There is a whole chapter on this in Lee Strobel's most recent book, THE CASE FOR THE REAL JESUS, and he provides both interviews with several scholars as well as an extensive bibliography.  One of them flatly stated that prior to Jesus, there ARE no dying and rising Messiah figures in any Middle Eastern myth cycle.  My copy of this book is at school, but I'll be happy to pull quotes and references from it if you so desire.

As far as the idea of divine justice goes, that of course is subjective.  I believe that God is, in fact, a God of both mercy and justice, and that there are rewards and punishments after this life.  I don't care to embrace any belief system that does not consign the likes of Hitler and Stalin to the lowest pits of hell.
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« Reply #46 on: January 27, 2011, 08:39:14 PM »

Hey, Flick - I respect your disbelief in Christianity, but I also know that if I repeated a falsehood you would want me to call you on it.  The whole notion of parallels between the narrative of Christ's life - especially the whole dying and rising again phenomena - was pretty much made up out of the whole cloth by late 19th and early 20th century scholars who were anxious to discredit Christianity as much as possible. THE GOLDEN BOUGH is a classic example, which contains several obvious distortions.   Both Osiris and Horus have been cited as parallels to Jesus, but when you go back to the original myths the parallels simply aren't there.  Modern commentators either severely distorted the details of the original stories or else fabricated them.  Now some myths - like the cult of Mithras, which in its fully developed form emerged about the middle of the second century - DID include a dying and rising savior figure, but every one of those myth cycles POST dates Christianity by a century or so.  Since Christianity was the fastest growing religion in the Roman Empire by that point, it makes sense that cults trying to gain followers would copy some of its elements.

There is a whole chapter on this in Lee Strobel's most recent book, THE CASE FOR THE REAL JESUS, and he provides both interviews with several scholars as well as an extensive bibliography.  One of them flatly stated that prior to Jesus, there ARE no dying and rising Messiah figures in any Middle Eastern myth cycle.  My copy of this book is at school, but I'll be happy to pull quotes and references from it if you so desire.


I know I am going to regret getting into this: but I cannot let this sit.  This sort of thing offends me: Christianity is not so weak or feeble that it needs to be propped up by fabrications and distortions.

I would never stoop to challenge your belief in Christianity, Indy, but I will challenge your belief in this book.  It is faulty and unworthy.  Strobel has been "called" on a series of falsehoods. There are considerable problems with Strobel's book; among the primary ones being a persistent deficit of logic (not to mention the considerable biases of his sources!)  If his critics - and " late 19th and early 20th century scholars who were anxious to discredit Christianity" - are biased, so is he!  Strobel wrote what he did, as he did, to suit his purpose; as did his sources.

http://www.caseagainstfaith.com/articles/therealjesus.htm#conclusion  (note particularly point #5)

And an exerpt from http://webspace.webring.com/people/np/paul_tobin/paganrising.html :

"A typical fundamentalist apologetic sleight of hand is to claim that it was the pagan mysteries who copied the Christian story. In The Case for Christ, Lee Strobel quoted a fundamentalist apologist stating that "given the timing involved" it should be the pagans who plagiarized Christianity. Neither Strobel nor his chosen scholar, gave any further evidence for their claim.

Yet this claim is demonstrably false- for a couple of reasons:

It is well known that these mystery religion preceded Christianity by at least a few centuries. The myth of Adonis was known to the Greeks as early as the fifth century BCE. The Egyptian myth of Osiris dates back to at least 4,000 BCE and was recorded in detail by the Greek biographer Plutarch (c46-120 CE). The Persian Sun-God Mithras was mentioned in the writings of the Greek historian Herodotus (c480-c245 BCE). The cult of Mithraism reached Rome in the first century BCE.


The way the early church fathers defended against the mystery religions showed that they knew these pagan myths antedated the Christian ones. Justin Martyr (c160-165) claimed that the devil plagiarized Christianity by anticipation with the pagan religions in order to lead people from the true faith. He claimed the myth of the virgin birth of Perseus, an ancient Greek legend that preceded Christianity, was pre-copied by the "deceiving serpent" (Dialogue with Trypho: 70). Similarly he asserted that the cultic rites of Mithraism had a diabolical origin (Apology 1:66). Tertulian (c160-c225) made the same claim: that it was the devil that provided this "mimicry". That the church fathers would resort to the absurd theory of pre-mimicry (i.e. the copy coming before the original) means that they could not make the claim that the pagan mystery religions copied from Christianity! Why couldn't they? Because it must have been well known to them and to their audience which came first! "

 
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indianasmith
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« Reply #47 on: January 28, 2011, 12:00:20 AM »

Hmmm . . .  a challenge.


OK:  The elements of Osiris that resemble Christianity are far exceeded by those that do not.  You have to do a heck of a lot of editing to make the two compatible.

Second: While the legend of Mithras is ancient,  the bull-cult of Mithras with its blood baptism that some cite as similar to Christianity is virtually unknown in the first century.  The earliest detailed accounts of its belief system come from much later, and the earliest references to it still postdate Christianity.

And above all, there is this:  NONE of the so called "vegetation cults" or "resurrection myths" that Chrisianity supposedly plagiarized are based on a real, datable, historical person!  Adonis is treated as a legendary figure from long ago.  The EARLIEST accounts of Osiris and Horus claim that they were legendary figures from the dawn of time (also, I don't think Osiris was claimed to be born of a virgin in the original legends). Same with Persephone, Mithras, and all the others.  Not a one of them is ever placed in a context that anyone still living would have been able to bear witness to their supposed Resurrection.

On the contrary, Christianity ABSOLUTELY rises and falls on a real, historical figure.  He was born in the reign of Augustus and crucified in the reign of Tiberius.  The four Gospels that recount his life were all composed in the first century, when multiple eyewitness testimonies were available, and two of them have been attributed to eyewitnesses from the time of their writing (John and Matthew).  The earliest Christians staked their very lives on the belief that a real, flesh and blood person whom they knew had risen from the dead, thus proving His Divinity.  All the pagan myths are never portrayed as anything other than myths and ancient stories.  Not a one was recorded by their contemporaries.

  Last of all, the book I cited was NOT "The Case for Christ."  It is a much older work, and it was Strobel's first.  Of course he is biased - that's why the book is called The Case FOR Christ. The book I cited was much more recent, published in 2008, and is entitled THE CASE FOR THE REAL JESUS.  It is much more extensively researched than its predecessor.  And one note - if believing in the topic that you research and write about disqualifies you from being objective, does that mean I can ignore all works on evolution by scientists that ascribe to that theory?  Or all works on the Civil War by authors who believe the South was morally wrong?  Having a strong conviction on something doesn't disqualify you from writing about it.
  Fabrications?  I don't really think so.  Distortions? Frankly, I find that many people will throw that word down when someone reaches a conclusion they don't like.  Anyway, I thank you for the links, Newt, and will take the time to peruse them in great detail.  I enjoy a challenge and am not in the least offended by your post.  Thanks for your contribution!
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« Reply #48 on: January 28, 2011, 12:17:54 AM »

It's all bulls**t. Religion is bulls**t. "My Gods better than your God". Any belief that states they are the only,true one. That aint Religion.Thats Facism.
Hitler was a Pope for his ideolgy.
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« Reply #49 on: January 28, 2011, 12:28:07 AM »

...Of COURSE Jesus was human.  He had a human body, and he ate, drank, and excreted the way any other human does...  
...To discount Jesus' divinity is just as great an affront to Christianity as it is to discount His humanity...!
So... you admit it?   Smile Bluesad  And just to show you there are no hard feelings, I think you "excreted" more than Jesus ever did!  Wink
I'm gonna pull an "unfingered" thingy... and quote myself...  Lookingup

Indiana thinks Jesus excreted!!!   BounceGiggle BounceGiggle BounceGiggle TeddyR Lookingup Bluesad BounceGiggle  
He must've!!  TeddyR  Poor Jesus.  Did he ever have hard stomach??  Question
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indianasmith
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« Reply #50 on: January 28, 2011, 12:42:00 AM »

Sorry it we hijacked your thread, Ronnie!  But this topic is important to many of us.

AHD - I finally agreed with you about something - the humanity of Jesus - and you keep on and on and on about one of the realities of that humanity I mentioned!  While I apprciate you attempt to lighten the tone, give it a rest, dude! TeddyR

Newt - Just read through the entire site.  Needless to say, there is much that I take exception to, and I find that the author - whose name I could not locate on the article - is frankly just as guilty of assumption and supposition as the scholars he attempts to debunk.
Anyway, it is nearly midnight and I get up at 5:15, so I am taking a powder for the night.  Thanks for a fascinating link, and I apologize for one error - in reading the very end of the article first, I thought he was debunking THE CASE FOR CHRIST, not the later work.  My bad. 

Goodnight to all!
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« Reply #51 on: January 28, 2011, 10:48:33 AM »

Let's say that some of the things I brought up are not entirely correct about comparisons between Jesus and Horus. Fair enough. I apologize for any inaccuracies, and I do appreciate you pointing any out, Indy. They are not intended as direct attacks on Christianity.

However, without going into hours and hours of extensive research that I don't have the time to do, and much as I would like to, couldn't this be a case of believing what one wants to believe? You can't tell me that every one of the correlaries I mentioned are completely false. That's impossible. A little further research has turned up some items that support some of those that are not related to attacks on Christianity. I promise at some point I when I do have some time I will share some of it with you via PM, Indy. Just give me some time.

However, my primary point stands. Religions throughout history borrow and steal concepts from one another. It has been the case throughout recorded history, and before that I'm confident. Why should any of today's widely practiced faiths be any different? The simple answer is, they aren't. I am sure that any Christian or Muslim wants very much to believe that their faith is original, the first to do this or that. It is a part of the human condition for one to want one's embraced beliefs to be unique. It is also part of the human condition to embrace information that supports one's beliefs and reject that which does not as naught but lies and falsehoods. Our brains are like soil seives, a system of filters, rejecting some particles and letting others through. Your filters are going to be biased differently than those of one who wants to discredit Christianity.

The truth usually lies somewhere in the middle when viewed by unbiased eyes. I'm not saying my eyes are unbiased, because I am a deist with some disdain for religion. However, I am indiscriminate in my disdain of religion. Christianity is not in my crosshairs any more than any other faith. It may seem as though it is, but this is only because I am within proximity of mainly Christian people. Were this site filled with Muslims, most would probably see me as vehemently anti-Muslim. You, with all the respect that you know I have for you Indy, are Christian and will defend it vigorously. In that light, I think I am a bit more unbiased when dissecting and comparing religions. I'm not questioning your intellect, Indy, in the slightest. I must, however, question your bias.

The ancient deity Mithras is also sited as an influence on the beliefs in the attributes of the man Jesus, and on the Christian tradition in general. I'm sure there are some falsehoods there from those wishing to attack Christianity, just as I am sure you could point out sources debunking such notions, from sources eager to defend Christianity no doubt. Again, the truth lies somewhere in the middle. The deification of Jesus has borrowed from older religions, because, just as the Bible says (it is not without it's moments of beautiful wisdom) there is nothing new under the sun.
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« Reply #52 on: January 28, 2011, 11:22:14 AM »

Sorry it we hijacked your thread, Ronnie!  But this topic is important to many of us.

AHD - I finally agreed with you about something - the humanity of Jesus - and you keep on and on and on about one of the realities of that humanity I mentioned!  While I apprciate you attempt to lighten the tone, give it a rest, dude! TeddyR
We've agreed about other things, my narrow-minded friend with convenient menory.  And that's one "on" too many.  But since you've stated I "keep on and on and on" that's three times, not twice, so I'm entitled to at least one more shot, but you won't be living down your "excreted" remark anytime soon.  Wink
...so I will simply repeat: Did Jesus ever have hard stomach??  Question
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« Reply #53 on: January 28, 2011, 06:52:10 PM »

Let's see - he was a carpenter who worked with his hands and back for a living in a country where food was scarce.  I imagine his abs were ROCK hard!!

Flick, my friend - I will definitely plead guilty to the charge of bias.  But, as one of my professors remarked long ago, there are NO unbiased historians.  I would stretch that to say that there are NO unbiased human beings.  Period.

Peace to all!
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« Reply #54 on: January 28, 2011, 07:04:09 PM »

Let's see - he was a carpenter who worked with his hands and back for a living in a country where food was scarce.  I imagine his abs were ROCK hard!!
Oh fudge, here we go again...  Lookingup  Apparently you never heard the expression "hard stomach"?  It means constipated.  Just like your rock hard abs remark.   Wink Thumbup
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« Reply #55 on: January 28, 2011, 07:30:01 PM »

I know some of the stuff debunking Jesus is motivated by all sorts of whatever, but right there in the bible the story of Moses being saved as a baby from being killed and the same thing happening to Jesus are pretty similar. PLus, how could a king order all the first born be rounded up and killed? There are no records of these things.

The essence of Jesus is in his teachings.

and I don't understand why people pay attention to Acts or Revelations. Jesus was the son of God. Whatever happened AFTER him is not from him and not important.
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indianasmith
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« Reply #56 on: January 28, 2011, 09:43:08 PM »

If Jesus was the Son of God, then the Acts of his Apostles as they carried out the Great Commission were of supreme importance.  After all, He gave them the authority to "bind and loose", so their creation of the church was in accordance with His instructions.

As far as Herod goes, if you read Josephus, he carried out so many atrocities in his long and cruel life that executing a few children in a tiny town might easily not make the chronicles of his reign at all.  Bethlehem was a town of 200 or so at the time Jesus was born; "every male two years old and under" would have been less than two dozen people - a blip in Herod's total body count.
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« Reply #57 on: January 28, 2011, 11:59:01 PM »

OP, it sounds like you're probably more Agnostic than Atheist.

...Truthfully, I think that more people should try and figure out what they are. Question everything. Don't get caught up in family "tradition". Always be skeptical. Only then can you figure out what you are.

For what it's worth, I'm an Atheist.
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« Reply #58 on: January 29, 2011, 12:39:30 AM »


For what it's worth, I'm an Atheist.



I am not.  However, I used to claim that I was.

I posted this video earlier tonight. 

That man's beauty and talent make me question that it is all random, that there is no divine direction.  True, given infinite time, monkeys probably can type Shakespeare.  But in this case, it happened DURING MY LIFETIME (Brother Iz, not Shakespeare...AHD, I would expect you to catch me on that one...   TongueOut  )

And here's the rub: it's been happening during each and every lifetime since at least the beginning of recorded history.

I happen to believe that science cannot explain art...why we appreciate one thing as art and see another as trash.  The beauty of a singing voice, the passion of lyric, the magic of the optical illusion contained in special effects....art.  Humans create beauty each and every day, and I don't, any more, think that is random.
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« Reply #59 on: January 30, 2011, 03:22:32 AM »


For what it's worth, I'm an Atheist.



I am not.  However, I used to claim that I was.

I posted this video earlier tonight. 

That man's beauty and talent make me question that it is all random, that there is no divine direction.  True, given infinite time, monkeys probably can type Shakespeare.  But in this case, it happened DURING MY LIFETIME (Brother Iz, not Shakespeare...AHD, I would expect you to catch me on that one...   TongueOut  )

And here's the rub: it's been happening during each and every lifetime since at least the beginning of recorded history.

I happen to believe that science cannot explain art...why we appreciate one thing as art and see another as trash.  The beauty of a singing voice, the passion of lyric, the magic of the optical illusion contained in special effects....art.  Humans create beauty each and every day, and I don't, any more, think that is random.


Ulthar brings up what is for me the most interesting point of the whole conversation.

Now, obsessing on rationality usually ends up with an undue importance on "proofs," ultimate or not. It's the stress on "proof" that keeps me on the edge of atheism and agnosticism.

But that ignores many of the most basic experiences of being human: art, love, emotion, ecstatic experiences. If you've lived this far without falling into the full throes of any of those, you haven't experienced anything near the fullness of what is possible in your life. In fact, I believe that these are the foundation of a healthy life. And for the large majority of the population, these experiences coalesce into a part of life people celebrate as "religion."

Love: Marriage. Art: Transcendence. Ecstasy: Stands on its own. Religion has stood at the center of all of these basics for thousands of years, and have provided an explanatory tool and road map.

Myself, I think it's an example of just how much we don't know about consciousness itself. Consciousness is, after all, the prism we have to view ourselves through. It can be said that our brains evolved to recognize patterns, and it is pattern recognition that has helped us survive and thrive on this planet. But that's a bit of begging the question.

Look at it this way. What do you feel when you hear Beethoven's "Ode to Joy?"

Small | Large


I hear a triumph of the human spirit, and just how far away we still are from truly understanding ourselves on a scientific basis. But I don't believe it's an unobtainable goal. (I'll take my tongue out of my cheek later.)
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