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Badmovies.org Forum  |  Other Topics  |  Off Topic Discussion  |  The Debt Crisis . . . Whose fault? And how do we fix it? (PT, PF) « previous next »
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Author Topic: The Debt Crisis . . . Whose fault? And how do we fix it? (PT, PF)  (Read 4622 times)
indianasmith
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« Reply #15 on: March 19, 2011, 01:32:18 PM »

BTW, I wasn't saying that Saddam was behind the Anthrax attacks.  But it did make us aware of the dreadful danger that even a relatively small quantity of Anthrax posed - and Hussein did manufacture the stuff.  He was a potential supplier to every single enemy America had.
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« Reply #16 on: March 19, 2011, 02:40:52 PM »

Quote
I don't believe in isolationism.  Period.  Either America acts as the global cop, or the globe doesn't have one.

good. It doesn't need or want one.

Quote
You are willing to let evil win - if you'd lived in World War II, I imagine that you would have said that the Holocaust was Germany's internal problem and we had no business stepping in.

I'm not sidestepping a debate on ww2 but the issue here is our debt. The trillions we spend on supporting guys like sadam hussein and Hosni Mubarak and having bases in countries like south korea, japan ,and Germany and so many others isn't stopping a meglomaniacal guy with a massive military from stomping across western civilization. It isn't serving the purpose our expenditures did in ww2. I really don't know what it's purpose is actually. It's mainly doing a good job of fomenting terrorism, draining our treasury and making us look like a***oles.


Quote
If all our leaders followed your philosophy, America would stand for nothing and mean nothing.

If they followed your philosophy we'd be broke. and we are!
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« Reply #17 on: March 19, 2011, 04:43:03 PM »

 I like pie!

Small | Large

Fact is-we can p**s and moan all day long. Unless your a millionaire-nobody gives a f**k what you think.
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indianasmith
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« Reply #18 on: March 19, 2011, 05:20:15 PM »

But . . .  but . . . I care what you guys think! TeddyR
Except maybe Lester.  His thoughts get on my nerves. Bluesad
But then there is you.  You're OK! Cheers
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« Reply #19 on: March 19, 2011, 07:34:47 PM »


Except maybe Lester.  His thoughts get on my nerves. Bluesad


I often don't agree with Lester, but he does have some good points and an intelligent argument for his points. "his thoughts get on my nerves" really doesn't have a place in a civilized debate. If you're not able to completely squash his points, then one has to concede that at least some of his points are valid. I see good points in both of your arguments, and if what Lester says is grounds for getting on someone's nerves, then surely your points would also.
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El Misfit
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« Reply #20 on: March 19, 2011, 07:46:56 PM »

We all screwed up. we all must fix it by not being greedy. plain and simple through words, but hatching the plan- with all of this miasma and exaggeration and drawn lines, these are what killed us from the beginning. How to undo this- there isn't a way because we all strive on money and feed our fear to politicians who then say dirt on the other person so they can be elected once again. if we expose these corrupt guys for what they really are, then we might just be able to fix this.
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yeah no.
indianasmith
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« Reply #21 on: March 19, 2011, 07:57:28 PM »

If we expose all the corrupt people, that would leave you, me, and Trevor!
The problem with fearmongering is that the world is, in all actuality, a very scary place. One man's fearmongering is another man's valid concern.  I don't worry a lot about global warming, but I am scared to death of Islamic radicalism.  You might be totally flip-flopped of how I feel. Which one of us is right?  Or both?  Or neither?  That's what makes real reform rather difficult.

GHouck - Lester and I are old sparring partners who go back and forth a great deal.  I actually gave him positive karma for his last post in this thread.  But his ideaology does make my head hurt sometimes - he is thoughtful, obviously, and makes his points well - but his way of thinking is so alien to mine that I can't get my head around it.  But I do hope I get on some people's nerves.  We may see different solutions, but this is a problem we all need to do some thinking about, even if it's not particularly fun.

And Lester - the world doesn't NEED a policeman?  Really?  REALLY?  So, if dictators want to slaughter their own citizens, and bullies want to invade their weaker neighbors and impose genocide on them, then no one from outside has a right to stand up to them?  Ever?  That is the kind of statement from you that just stymies me.  Again, I have tons of respect for you hanging in the discussion and all, but your way of thinking is utterly alien to me at times.  Peace to you anyway.
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« Reply #22 on: March 19, 2011, 08:00:29 PM »

If we expose all the corrupt people, that would leave you, me, and Trevor!
The problem with fearmongering is that the world is, in all actuality, a very scary place. One man's fearmongering is another man's valid concern.  I don't worry a lot about global warming, but I am scared to death of Islamic radicalism.  You might be totally flip-flopped of how I feel. Which one of us is right?  Or both?  Or neither?  That's what makes real reform rather difficult.

We are flipped-flopped. and we are right. and wrong at the same time. Wink
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yeah no.
ghouck
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« Reply #23 on: March 19, 2011, 08:54:04 PM »

If we expose all the corrupt people, that would leave you, me, and Trevor!
The problem with fearmongering is that the world is, in all actuality, a very scary place. One man's fearmongering is another man's valid concern.  I don't worry a lot about global warming, but I am scared to death of Islamic radicalism.  You might be totally flip-flopped of how I feel. Which one of us is right?  Or both?  Or neither?  That's what makes real reform rather difficult.

GHouck - Lester and I are old sparring partners who go back and forth a great deal.  I actually gave him positive karma for his last post in this thread.  But his ideaology does make my head hurt sometimes - he is thoughtful, obviously, and makes his points well - but his way of thinking is so alien to mine that I can't get my head around it.  But I do hope I get on some people's nerves.  We may see different solutions, but this is a problem we all need to do some thinking about, even if it's not particularly fun.

And Lester - the world doesn't NEED a policeman?  Really?  REALLY?  So, if dictators want to slaughter their own citizens, and bullies want to invade their weaker neighbors and impose genocide on them, then no one from outside has a right to stand up to them?  Ever?  That is the kind of statement from you that just stymies me.  Again, I have tons of respect for you hanging in the discussion and all, but your way of thinking is utterly alien to me at times.  Peace to you anyway.


I hope you realize how arrogant that first line sounds. I also hope you are kidding, and if you're not, I have a few words for you.

But anyways, "Either America acts as the global cop, or the globe doesn't have one." is a way of thinking that many believe, including myself, is the root of many of the problems in the world. It's an example of American arrogance that is the root of much of the hatred others have for us.

"the last best hope of man on earth."? again, that sounds arrogant, especially since if was said before anyone alive today's grandparents were even born. I hope some of the guys on the board that aren't from the USA chime in and tell us what how they perceive those kind of sound bites.
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Doggett
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« Reply #24 on: March 19, 2011, 09:21:02 PM »

Lester - I don't believe in isolationism.  Period.  Either America acts as the global cop, or the globe doesn't have one.  We don't have to intervene . We don't have to intervene everywhere, every time, but I do believe there are cases where intervention is called for and necessary.

Okay.
I can see the point there.
But I think its the UN's job. Not one country. We need rules to live by as a global community, we can't just have one person/country as a police man. Global democracy shouldn't allow this. How would you like if it all Laws were to be decided by one person?
Period.
You never had a say. One country as Judge, Jury and executioner
Justice can be slow, beauracratic and tedious but thats the price you pay for being the good guys. You have to try all avenues before you resort to more forcefull methods which the UN does. Also is it only becuase you're American that you want America to be the worlds Policeman ? Justoce isn't about force, it's requires a lot of thought and intelligence and you can't buy that with a defence budget.
What if it was Canada or Britian as the world police man ? Would you feel so comfortable about it then ?

You are willing to let evil win - if you'd lived in World War II, I imagine that you would have said that the Holocaust was Germany's internal problem and we had no business stepping in.  The Blitzkrieg would have merited a yawn, and a statement to the effect that it was Europe's problem. 

Okay, it's been a while since I did history, but I'm pretty sure the US had to be brought into the war. I think the Brits announced war on the Nazis when they realised that Hitler wasn't going to stop.
It took a while for the message to reach US shores though, the US thought that it was Europes problem...

I believe that America stands for something.  For all its flaws, it remains what Lincoln called it - "the last best hope of man on earth."  If all our leaders followed your philosophy, America would stand for nothing and mean nothing.

*Cough*

I didn't realise that my counrty was about to dissapear off the map.
I better get my passport. And head to Canada.
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« Reply #25 on: March 19, 2011, 09:27:14 PM »

Well, Indy and Lester are both right about one thing...the debt of our nation *IS* killing it.

The House of Representatives just passed a bill to cut $6 billion from the budget, which is purely and utterly ridiculous...a ridiculously SMALL, and totally meaningless, cut.

Quote

If Congress were to cut $6 billion every three weeks for the next 36 weeks, it would manage to save between now and late November as much money as the Treasury added to the nation's net debt during just the business hours of Tuesday, March 15.



http://cnsnews.com/news/article/debt-jumped-72-billion-same-day-house-vo
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« Reply #26 on: March 19, 2011, 10:08:36 PM »

How about this for a partial small solution: immediately with draw U.S. forces from Iraq and Afganistan. I know that a massive chunk of the debt goes towards that.
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ulthar
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« Reply #27 on: March 19, 2011, 10:30:51 PM »

How about this for a partial small solution: immediately with draw U.S. forces from Iraq and Afganistan. I know that a massive chunk of the debt goes towards that.

Huh?


Debt doesn't go to keep the military anywhere...debt is what we owe other countries for past deficit spending.

Completely disbanding the military might help meet a budget now, but it would do nothing to paying down the debt.
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indianasmith
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« Reply #28 on: March 20, 2011, 12:05:09 AM »

    Doggett - may not know this, but I am a raving Anglophile.  England carried the torch of civilization and democracy for all of the nineteenth and twentieth century, and I am a huge believer in the "special relationship" that Churchill and Roosevelt created.  You are right that America had to be dragged into the war - because there were a great many isolationists (people who think a lot like our own Lester) who were dead set against our getting into it.  England - and more specifically, that great Englishman Winston Churchill - saved the world in the dark days of 1940, when the light of civilization came very close to being snuffed out altogether.   It broke my heart that one of Obama's first acts in office was to disgracefully snub our oldest, best ally by returning the magnificent bust of Churchill that was given to President Bush by Tony Blair.  That was a crude, cheap act.  So was the giving of such tawdry gifts to your PM after the meaningful and historic gifts that your government sent to him as a welcome to the White House. Shameful.

  However , I have to disagree with your comment about letting the UN lead.  The UN was a brilliant idea that has gone utterly bad.  It was envisioned as a format where everyone would have a voice while the Great Powers steered.  Now, countries like Saudi Arabia and the Sudan (where SLAVERY is still practiced, for crying out loud!) get seats on the Human Rights Commission.  The UN General Assembly is a forum for bashing America and Israel by nations who have no concept of human freedom or democracy, and nothing but contempt for those who honor such projects.
   I wasn't proposing America act unilaterally, except in cases of grave danger to our own safety.  But I do believe that those who are both strong and in the right sometimes have an obligation to lead when the world community would rather bury its head in the sand.  My fondest wish is that the U.S. and the U.K. will always stand shoulder to shoulder as guardians of the light in a darkening world.

GHouck - I was being silly in that comment, I should have put an eyerolling smiley or something to indicate that.  I didn't think anyone would take it seriously.

  And Bob - the whole philosophy of "bring'em home now and damn the consequences" is nothing more or less than defeatism.  We are drawing down in Iraq, as the situation there continues to stabilize, but the Iraqi government still needs some help.  As I said earlier, that war is pretty much won.  But, we didn't pull all our troops out of Germany in 1945 - or in 1950 or 1960.  The world is a dangerous place.

   As for the "last best hope" comment, Lincoln said it and I believe it.  America, for now, proudly carries the torch - with a lot of help and support from the Free Peoples of the Earth (and occasional criticisms, which we often deserve).  It is a torch that first shone in Greece and Jerusalem, then from Rome and Constantinople, then for a long time from London.  It is the light of Western Civilization, resting on the twin pillars of reason and faith - woven together, they have created the best and freest societies the world has ever known.  If America is as terrible as all our critics say, why are people from all over the world willing to risk death and imprisonment to get here?  I have said it before and will say it again, I love my country and am not ashamed of that love.  (But hey - England is next on my list! Then Australia, then France and Italy, then Russia, then . . .  you get the idea!)
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« Reply #29 on: March 20, 2011, 07:46:31 AM »

If America is as terrible as all our critics say, why are people from all over the world willing to risk death and imprisonment to get here?  I have said it before and will say it again, I love my country and am not ashamed of that love.  (But hey - England is next on my list! Then Australia, then France and Italy, then Russia, then . . .  you get the idea!)

Yay we're number three!


I have no idea how you'll get out of your debt, but it seems certain that your country will be bitterly split no matter what way you go.  Most of our politics is fairly left/right of center rather than the extremes, so it seems 'calmer' here; the politicians have made huge issues out of stupid events, like illegal immigration [say a few thousand a year] to try and whip up controversy [really? Only a few thousand?  Compare that to others and come back to me, sheesh!] It all pales in comparison to the seemingly crazy politics going on in the US at the moment. 

Our country seemed to avoid the bulk of the global financial crisis fairly well.  A resources boom [we have alot of raw minerals that need digging] plus a reasonably stable economy have helped us through the worst of it.  I'm not sure how or even if it applies to the US but one of the things that is sometimes credited for our success is a series of stimulus packages that was split into two parts.  A small part was a payout to a lot of our citizens so they go out and spend it on things, driving the economy at a time of uncertainty.  This was fairly successful as a short term fix and many countries also put in their own similar measures, but that can't be permanent of course, so now stimulus is being dialled back in many countries, including ours.

The second was a 'nation building' program where the government basically threw a lot of money at building/expanding schools/roads and other infrastructure.  This spike in building also drove things along by the sounds of it, and was a big help in keeping the money in the system.  I don't hear much about the US solutions, so I wonder if something like that is happening atm.

I'm no economist so I couldn't even start to come up with solutions for an incredibly hard situation but I think the clearest thing I can say/see is that no matter what course is taken, there needs to be some serious reforms in the US to make it work, and thats not going to happen with such passionately hateful politics that seem to be tearing your country apart at the moment.

I don't care who's right or wrong, ultimately it won't hugely effect me, but at least SOMETHING has to be done beyond the nothing/stalemate that seems to be coming out of your country.

Fix the politicians and the rest will follow really.
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