The Debt Crisis . . . Whose fault? And how do we fix it? (PT, PF)

[indianasmith]

Interesting commentary, Dean, thanks!

I got to visit Australia for a few weeks back in 1983 and long to return someday - it is a truly beautiful place and the only locality outside the U.S. I've ever been to that I would enjoy actually living in.

[Doggett]

You are right that America had to be dragged into the war - because there were a great many isolationists (people who think a lot like our own Lester) who were dead set against our getting into it. 

Okay, bit of a difference between what Lester means and what I mean. The scales don't really compare. We're not talking about some small country that most people probably couldn't even find on a map and the fate of a whole continent what could effect global politics to come.
I doubt what happens in some small arab states will affect the world in any other way than changing oil prices.

And, being the hippy I am, I believe we need to find alternative sources to oil anyway.

Now, countries like Saudi Arabia and the Sudan (where SLAVERY is still practiced, for crying out loud!) get seats on the Human Rights Commission.

Well, obviously thats not right.

The UN General Assembly is a forum for bashing America and Israel by nations who have no concept of human freedom or democracy, and nothing but contempt for those who honor such projects.

There's a saying over here: if everyone you bump into takes a dislike to you, maybe they're not the one with the problem...

You can't sulk just because a few countires don't like you.
That would be like me not going to school becuase everyone hated me. Who cares abiout these countires anyway ? What does their opinions even matter ? It doesn't bother me in the slightest when I get bashed by people I don't like. Its only the people whos opinions I care about that I take notice of. Be they postive thoughts or otherwise.
If you truly believe in democracy then everyone should get a say. Even people who you find abhorrant. Thats how it works.

But I do believe that those who are both strong and in the right sometimes have an obligation to lead when the world community would rather bury its head in the sand.

There's the thing.
Who says you're in the right ? The world very rarely gives an easy black and white choice.
And you're not leading anything if no one wants to follow.

When truly bad things happen in the world, it inspires people to do good. There's really no need for grandstanding.
Look at Libya.
A country that turned against its citizens now has a bunch of countries against it to protect the lives of innocent civilians.

If America is as terrible as all our critics say, why are people from all over the world willing to risk death and imprisonment to get here?

Again, Indy.
I hate to burst your bubble. But thats not just an American thing. We have that too and with far more countries.
Geography, it's pretty much just Mexico and Cuban people that flee to America.

I think I'm in danger of seeming anti-American. I'm not.
I love you guys.

Things that you hold so dearly apply to most other countries around the world. Simply because you're the biggest, you assume you're the best.
America being big has nothing to do with American freedom or values.
Its simply a large land mass.
America has many noble traits and fine, fine people, but they are ideas shared amoungst the globe. They are not yours and yours alone.

As for the "last best hope" comment, Lincoln said it and I believe it.

Hope is something that lies within a person, not a country.
It doesn't matter where that person is or where that person is from. I'm sure people have hope all across this planet.
At least, I hope they do.
See what I did there ? 


Have I ever written this much in all the years I've been here ????

[lester1/2jr]

And Lester - the world doesn't NEED a policeman?  Really?  REALLY?  So, if dictators want to slaughter their own citizens, and bullies want to invade their weaker neighbors and impose genocide on them, then no one from outside has a right to stand up to them?  

okay first of all: what about the topic??  all it takes is the mention of war and you are totally off the subject!  as if wars don't cost money or as if that money is somehow different money.

the issue is not these high falutin disagreements on foreign policy questions, it's our very survival. we could eventually be cut off. the dollar is slowly falling out of favor as the reserve currency.  we are slipping a little more each day.


and dictators ARE slaughtering their own citizens all over the world. robert mugabe, hosni mubarak until recently with our consent and billions, Kim jong il in north korea.  It's out of our hands. We don't live in the garden of eden, we don't have unlimited resources.

[Umaril The Unfeathered]

Lester - I don't believe in isolationism.  Period.  Either America acts as the global cop, or the globe doesn't have one.  We don't have to intervene everywhere, every time, but I do believe there are cases where intervention is called for and necessary.

Makes me wonder how the airstrikes in Libya will be viewed.  The anti-war crowd now has more to b*tch about, and most likely most analysts will say we just went into our third war.  This however, will not play out as Clinton's airstrikes in Yugoslavia did years back, where the war was won with just a series of airstrikes.  Libya is a larger country,  has better Soviet-made weapons, and they know how to use them.  Ground war, anyone?

You are willing to let evil win - if you'd lived in World War II, I imagine that you would have said that the Holocaust was Germany's internal problem and we had no business stepping in.  The Blitzkrieg would have merited a yawn, and a statement to the effect that it was Europe's problem.  Japan's rape of China?   Not our business.

Maybe some people should see the unedited footage of the Imperial Japanese and their rape, mutilation and torture of innocent women, babies, and the elderly. And then ask if something shouldn't have been done.  If they had occupied the U.S. West Coast after Pearl Harbor, the same would have been the case. To say nothing of the Bataan Death March and the Tenko womens' camp in Sumatra.  It could have easily been America.

War is hell.  I recognize that, as does any person with intelligence.  But a peace that lets evil rule the field unopposed is even worse.  You say China doesn't face the problems we do - that's true.  That's because China is an evil dictatorship that doesn't allow its own people any freedom, so why promote it for others?

The day American college kids in Berkeley get run over by U.S. army tanks in the infamous "Berkely Square" incident, or a sentence of 25 years hard labor for owning a gun is imposed, then maybe people in America will have something to complain about. Until then, America is still the free-est country on the face of the Earth, and we bow to noone.   

In every age, it falls on some nation to carry the torch for liberty and freedom.  Yeah, that sounds corny as all get out, I know.  But I believe that America stands for something.  For all its flaws, it remains what Lincoln called it - "the last best hope of man on earth."  If all our leaders followed your philosophy, America would stand for nothing and mean nothing.

Couldn't agree more with this last one, Indy.  As usual you post is well recieved. 

[indianasmith]

Thanks to all for the returns!

Doggett, I think you and I probably agree more than we disagree.  I wish we could sit down sometime over a nice dinner and solve all the world's problems.  As long as you didn't try to make any moves on me like you did on Newt and Jack.  That would be frightful!!  Seriously, though, if Reagan or Bush would have been in office, they would have led the charge to get the UN to intervene, and Ghadaffi's air force would have been so much twisted burning wreckage weeks ago, back when the rebellion was still going strong.  As it is, we've waited so long that we are more likely going to be protecting huddled survivors instead of empowering a popular rebellion to topple a truly evil man.  All because a President whose foreign policy is dithering, if not downright cowardly, refused to lead when the world looked to him for leadership.

Lester - we do spend a lot on our military, but if you look at it as a percent of our GDP, it's about a fourth of what we spend on entitlements.  I do diverge when it comes to the topic of our military, simply because you and I differ so much there that your posts always set me off. With regards to Mubarak, one reason that he did receive U.S. support for as long as he did is because he was NOT that heavy handed towards his own people - certainly not in a class with Kim Jong Il or Saddam Hussein - and because he was a major stabilizing influence.  But yes, it does come back to debt and profligate spending.  But I still believe that we should do the most good we can with what we have, within our means, rather than retreating into isolationism and allowing the world to go to Hades in a handbasket.

[Doggett]

Doggett, I think you and I probably agree more than we disagree.  I wish we could sit down sometime over a nice dinner and solve all the world's problems.  As long as you didn't try to make any moves on me like you did on Newt and Jack. 

No promises.

You are a big hunk of man. I wouldn't mind a nibble. 

[lester1/2jr]

With regards to Mubarak, one reason that he did receive U.S. support for as long as he did is because he was NOT that heavy handed towards his own people

 

yeah he's only #20 http://www.parade.com/dictators/


20. Hosni Mubarak
Egypt
Age:  80
In power since: 1981
Last year's rank:  17  

The use of torture in Egypt has been widely documented. In response to international pressure, Mubarak allowed local elections in 2008, but in 80% of the contests, his party’s candidates ran unopposed. He made it so difficult to register or campaign that turnout was estimated at only 3%.


His people hated him and we did everythign we could to support him and solidify his reign. That's nothing like stopping Hitler in WW2. It's alot more like supporting Hitler.

But I still believe that we should do the most good we can with what we have, within our means,

and we are back to the ostensible topic: we are way BEYOND our means.

rather than retreating into isolationism and allowing the world to go to Hades in a handbasket.

The world isn't going to hell in handbasket. Places like India , China and Brazil, which were largely destitute only a few decades or so ago, have massive thriving economies now. My friend a few years ago in the gambling industry was on some island near Hong Kong that was like Gilligans island 20 years ago and now is a massive metropolis. I haven't talked to him in a whil but I htink he is in thailand or somewhere therabouts. There is crazy growth going on in the world.  

None of this is the result of our making military contractors billionaires, supporting dictators like mubarak, the saudis, and others or any of that. It's the result of trade.



We're a republic , not an empire.  I don't find anything morally abhorrent about that.

[Rev. Powell]

America is still the free-est country on the face of the Earth, and we bow to noone.   

Sorry, I couldn't resist.  Carry on.   

[Allhallowsday]

way way way Wait, wasn't it decided that Doggett was to blame? 

[Umaril The Unfeathered]

America is still the free-est country on the face of the Earth, and we bow to noone.   

Sorry, I couldn't resist.  Carry on.   

Hey man, I'm honored. I'm young, good lookin' and some nice teeth.  Nice pic   

[Flick James]

Just now weighing in on the topic as I don't normally log in on the weekends.

The reason is no mystery: we spend too much.

The reason it cannot be solved by the two-party systems is also no mystery, but few choose to acknowledge it: too much political power. The Democrats beat the Republicans to the punch creating this massive unwieldy central government we have. The Republicans had to compete some way just to retain the amount of political swagger they have enjoyed for decades, and so now they are no less guilty of helping to turn this nation into a nation of dependence and debt. We are far more dependent than most people realize. They only thing we have truly going for us on the international power scale is military might. Both the Democrats and the Republicans know this, which is why we've evolved into now fighting on four freaking fronts now. Didn't Obama promise to pull the nation out of war? Yeah, right.

Back to political power. Neither the Democrats nor the Republicans want to give up power. Reduce debt and you reduce the size of the government, it's not rocket science. Reduce government and you reduce the power base of whatever part of the government you are reducing. Neither side of the corrupt two-party system wants to do that. So instead we get what we've got, finger pointing over who's to blame and what to cut. Neither party is concerned about fixing the country, they're concerned about how to hold on to their power.

If there's any hope, it's in an emerging third party, and if that third party can manage to retain it's values and not just get into office and become the new Democrat or the new Republican. I doubt this will happen. You're more likely to see a political coup and martial law imposed before you're likely to see something like that.

The more I see, the better anarcho-capitalism looks to me.

[venomx]

About the future...



Everyone has their own flying car, entire meals come in pill form, and Earth is run by DAMN DIRTY APES!

[Doggett]

About the future...



Everyone has their own flying car, entire meals come in pill form, and Earth is run by DAMN DIRTY APES!

Only four more years till we get these:




And they better be in retro 80's colours! 

[barack clinton]

Most of the Op was a lot of foxnews, which is the new term for BS.

The real truth about america's economic crisis is that it's mostly been caused by republican administrations helping corporate america and the richest of the rich loot and plunder america for their own gain.

Under president raygun, we had the damn of downsizing appear, and the term downsizing entered the american lexicon. The result of raygun's policies and the political climate they ushered in was that middle america's wages have flatlined or even dropped over the last 30 years while the wealth of the rich and corporations has skyrocketed. Since the rich and corporations pay little taxes and have good accountants and overseas tax shelters to avoid  most taxes, this has meant a huge shift in money from the middle class who spend it on things and pay taxes, to the rich who hoard their money and don't pay taxes.

Also raygun started this big drive to dismantle the safety regs that FDR, one of america's great presidents, put in place to prevent another depression and to porotect the public from the obscene greed and indifference of the rich.

So we had the S&L bailout thanks to raygunh, remember that? And we've had one financial crisis after another thanks to republican administrations dereguilating the rich and big business, essentially telling them the economy was theirs to rape and pillage as they pleased, and they did.

The vast majority of this countries financial crisis are laid at the feet of corporate america and their republican puppets.

 Also, the fools who are not rich and yet vote for the party of the rich,l the republicans, are to blame as well.

[Rev. Powell]

Please don't bother responding to barack clinton.  He's been banned.  Not for his views, but for abusing this forum's hospitality.