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Author Topic: POLITICAL THREAD (PF) ENTER AT YOUR RISK  (Read 2508 times)
Mofo Rising
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« Reply #15 on: April 08, 2011, 03:00:58 AM »

As for laissez-faire capitalism, it's virtually non-existent. I think if you do a conceptual comparison of the fundamental differences between laissez-faire capitalism and corporatism, or crony capitalism, you will find our economic system leans far more to the latter, but I look forward to you providing some instances where I am mistaken.

Well, I don't think you'll get the good argument from me, as it seems we are probably in fair agreement on this point.

There's this point of faith running around that there exists a "free market" that would self-correct were it not for government interference. I do not believe that this mythological entity has ever existed in the real world, but there is much inflammatory rhetoric performed on it's behalf everyday. Adam Smith must be rolling around in his grave.

It really made me laugh (and also made me sad), that during the 2008 elections Sarah Palin was so freely tossing about the epithet "socialist" at Obama.

Here's a thing, my home state Alaska has something known as the Permanent Fund Dividend. What that involves is that part of the money made by the oil companies in Alaska is set into a separate interest earning fund. The profits from that fund are then distributed to the people living in Alaska as yearly check, usually about $1000.

Here's a direct quote from Sarah Palin:

"And Alaska ó we're set up, unlike other states in the union, where it's collectively Alaskans own the resources. So we share in the wealth when the development of these resources occurs."

You may remember Sarah Palin, she was the governor of Alaska before she quit.

I'm not even going to set that up as an example of ignorant hypocrisy, just more of an example of how little respect politicians have for the non-wealthy.

I'm glad and sad Palin torpedoed the Republican hope for re-election. (Sad because it forced McCain to become such a parody of himself. Do you remember when McCain was somebody you could actually care about?)

I liked Obama when he first became a political figure, because he seemed to insert actual intelligence into political debate. A few years into this administration, well hope is fading fast.
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« Reply #16 on: April 08, 2011, 06:11:30 AM »

Erg.  OK, I flat out quoted the remark incorrectly, and I apologize.  It's the snide, sneering "blame America first" attitude of the article that set my teeth on edge.

Tell you what.  It's 6 AM here and my brain is still a bit fuzzy around the edges.  Tonight I will read both articles a bit more carefully and give you a more reasoned response.

But don't expect me to agree with much they say.
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« Reply #17 on: April 08, 2011, 09:16:45 AM »

Erg.  OK, I flat out quoted the remark incorrectly, and I apologize.  It's the snide, sneering "blame America first" attitude of the article that set my teeth on edge.

Tell you what.  It's 6 AM here and my brain is still a bit fuzzy around the edges.  Tonight I will read both articles a bit more carefully and give you a more reasoned response.

But don't expect me to agree with much they say.

I don't. Ultimately, Indy, it comes down to this: you support interventionist foreign policy an I don't. It stands to reason you will endeavor to discredit anything that takes the latter position. I know I gave you a hard time about it. You seem to be taking it in stride.
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« Reply #18 on: April 08, 2011, 10:24:24 AM »

Also just fyi PCR is a very hard core right winger just of a different style than you generally see.

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From 1975 to 1978, Roberts served on the congressional staff. As economic counsel to Congressman Jack Kemp[4] he drafted the Kemp-Roth bill (which became the Economic Recovery Tax Act of 1981) and played a leading role in developing bipartisan support for a supply-side economic policy.[3] His influential 1978 article for Harper's,[5] while economic counsel to Senator Orrin Hatch,[6] had Wall Street Journal editor Robert L. Bartley give him an editorial slot, which he had until 1980.[7] He was a senior fellow in political economy at the Center for Strategic and International Studies, then part of Georgetown University.[4]

From early 1981 to January 1982 he served as Assistant Secretary of the Treasury for Economic Policy. President Ronald Reagan and Treasury Secretary Donald Regan credited him with a major role in the Economic Recovery Tax Act of 1981, and he was awarded the Treasury Department's Meritorious Service Award for "outstanding contributions to the formulation of United States economic policy."[3] Roberts resigned in January 1982 to become the first occupant of the William E. Simon Chair for Economic Policy at the Center for Strategic and International Studies, then part of Georgetown University.[8] He held this position until 1993. He went on to write The Supply-Side Revolution (1984), in which he explained the reformulation of macroeconomic theory and policy that he had helped to create.

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« Reply #19 on: April 08, 2011, 10:38:11 AM »

Also just fyi PCR is a very hard core right winger just of a different style than you generally see.

Quote
From 1975 to 1978, Roberts served on the congressional staff. As economic counsel to Congressman Jack Kemp[4] he drafted the Kemp-Roth bill (which became the Economic Recovery Tax Act of 1981) and played a leading role in developing bipartisan support for a supply-side economic policy.[3] His influential 1978 article for Harper's,[5] while economic counsel to Senator Orrin Hatch,[6] had Wall Street Journal editor Robert L. Bartley give him an editorial slot, which he had until 1980.[7] He was a senior fellow in political economy at the Center for Strategic and International Studies, then part of Georgetown University.[4]

From early 1981 to January 1982 he served as Assistant Secretary of the Treasury for Economic Policy. President Ronald Reagan and Treasury Secretary Donald Regan credited him with a major role in the Economic Recovery Tax Act of 1981, and he was awarded the Treasury Department's Meritorious Service Award for "outstanding contributions to the formulation of United States economic policy."[3] Roberts resigned in January 1982 to become the first occupant of the William E. Simon Chair for Economic Policy at the Center for Strategic and International Studies, then part of Georgetown University.[8] He held this position until 1993. He went on to write The Supply-Side Revolution (1984), in which he explained the reformulation of macroeconomic theory and policy that he had helped to create.


I just thought it was interesting commentary. I don't know anything about him. I'm not plagued with partisan or liberal/conservative loyalties, so I don't apply that kind of bias when I read. It gets in the way.
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« Reply #20 on: April 08, 2011, 08:56:18 PM »

OK, I am much more awake now, and I went back and read both articles.  I'll be honest - this man twists and distorts history in a way that is frightening.

In the second article, he begins by arguing that the West set the stage for World War II by cutting off steel and fuel exports to Japan.  He never even mentions that our doing so was in direct response to Japan's invasion of China, the rape of Nanking, and the brutal murder of some 300,000 Chinese civilians.
Oh no!  It was the wicked old West cutting off Japan's access to resources just to be mean!

Seriously, now.

Then his demonization of America's motives and accomplishments in the war on terror.  First of all, this whole "subvering American civil liberties" notion that gets thrown in the face of the Bush administration by lefties the world over . . . did a single critic of the Bush administration get thrown in jail?  or even hauled in for some intimidation?  This President was a punching bag for every comedian, filmmaker, and liberal blogger on the continent for 8 years.  They got rich and he got 30% approval ratings.  Sounds like civil liberties were alive and well.  The folks who DID get arrested and locked up were those who participated in, planned, or colluded with attempts to murder American civilians.

And, regardless of the precise wording he used, his complete belittling of the very real danger posed by Al Qaeda and similar Islamic fundamentalists is disturbing to say the least.  The ultimate goal of these folks is the military defeat and forcible conversion and/or murder of all Western nations and peoples, and the establishment of a global Islamic caliphate.  It's not a joke, it's not a hoax, and it's certainly not something to be dismissed.  Look at the demographics of it!  There are about 1.2 billion Muslims in the world.  Most political scientists estimate that as many as 10%  of them are "radical Islamists" - in other words, they actively support murder  in order to spread their faith.  10% of a billion is a HUNDRED MILLION.  That is a larger force than Hitler commanded in World War II!! While they do not have the entire resources of an industrialized nation-state behind them, the fact remains that all they have to do is get lucky ONE TIME, with an old suitcase nuke from the Soviet Union, or a bucket full of anthrax from one of Saddam's now-defunct labs - and an entire American city dies.  That is their goal - Usama bin Laden has publicly stated he seeks to create "an American Hiroshima."  And our withdrawing from the Middle East will not change that goal one whit.  We are, and will remain, to the Islamists, the "Great Satan."

Last of all, his painting the brutal dictators Qadaffi and Assad as helpless victims of American imperialism ignores these men's thuglike behavior and ONGOING sponsorship of terrorism all over the world.

Bottom line is simply this - we aren't the bad guys, and I am sick of us being portrayed as such. No nation is perfect, and I do recognize that sometimes even in great causes bad things are done.  But the bad guys are these evil b@stards that cut the heads off reporters, murder their teenage daughers in "honor killings," and fly planes into buildings full of innocent civilians.

THAT'S my point!!
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« Reply #21 on: April 11, 2011, 09:57:37 AM »

And this from a man who has openly admitted his own historical bias. It would seem to me that's exactly what's going on. The writer of the article applies a certain bias to history that comes from being anti-interventionist, and yours comes from a ready acceptance and agreement with it. If the article supported U.S. intervention or justified it in any way would you question it's history? Forgive me if I doubt it.

So, you actually support Obama's arrogant authorization of military action in Libya? I'm beginning to think you would support any U.S. military action no matter who authorizes it or for what reason.

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« Reply #22 on: April 11, 2011, 11:20:19 AM »

Quote
the fact remains that all they have to do is get lucky ONE TIME, with an old suitcase nuke from the Soviet Union, or a bucket full of anthrax from one of Saddam's now-defunct labs - and an entire American city dies

exactly. excellent point. THat's why we should get the hell out of their countries! 

or do you consider the above scenerio acceptable collateral damage in the war on terror? Well I live here on the east coast in the relative line of fire and I DON'T. I came very close to losing members of my family on 9/11 and all this rheotric is meaningless to me. It's not acceptable. We are not going to have buildings falling down again and we all know full well they are over here because we're over there.

Al queda formed to drive the soviets out of afghanistan. not to take over russia. They want to drive us out of the middle east in similar fashion. They, like virtually all muslims, want to drive the israelis out too. That stinks for israel but they aren't a part of the United States and sorry, I'm not going through another 9/11 for them or anyone. I wish them the best but my family comes first.

Quote
10% of a billion is a HUNDRED MILLION.  That is a larger force than Hitler commanded in World War II

?? When muslims form an army like Hitler and storm across Europe you can get back to us on that one.  Otherwise that's a meaningless number.




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« Reply #23 on: April 11, 2011, 11:26:19 AM »

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the fact remains that all they have to do is get lucky ONE TIME, with an old suitcase nuke from the Soviet Union, or a bucket full of anthrax from one of Saddam's now-defunct labs - and an entire American city dies

exactly. excellent point. THat's why we should get the hell out of their countries! 

or do you consider the above scenerio acceptable collateral damage in the war on terror? Well I live here on the east coast in the relative line of fire and I DON'T. I came very close to losing members of my family on 9/11 and all this rheotric is meaningless to me. It's not acceptable. We are not going to have buildings falling down again and we all know full well they are over here because we're over there.

Al queda formed to drive the soviets out of afghanistan. not to take over russia. They want to drive us out of the middle east in similar fashion. They, like virtually all muslims, want to drive the israelis out too. That stinks for israel but they aren't a part of the United States and sorry, I'm not going through another 9/11 for them or anyone. I wish them the best but my family comes first.

Quote
10% of a billion is a HUNDRED MILLION.  That is a larger force than Hitler commanded in World War II

?? When muslims form an army like Hitler and storm across Europe you can get back to us on that one.  Otherwise that's a meaningless number.






Well, Godwin's Law had to surface sooner or later.

 BounceGiggle
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« Reply #24 on: April 11, 2011, 12:33:43 PM »

Quote
And our withdrawing from the Middle East will not change that goal one whit.  We are, and will remain, to the Islamists, the "Great Satan."

Exactly. You've just illustrated with sparkling clarity exactly how pointless our meddling is.
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« Reply #25 on: April 11, 2011, 06:09:48 PM »

Not exactly.  There is a reformist movement within Islam that denounces jihad.  Those are the people we have to encourage.

Flick - As far as your comments on intervention go, I generally support my country's policies based on two criteria:
1.  Is this the morally right thing to do?  Will it bring about greater good or harm if it succeeds?
2.  Is it in the interests of the United States to become involved?  Can we win? Can we make a difference that will accrue to the positive both for us and for those on whose behalf we intervene?

As far as bias, I am open and up front about mine.  I like to think I am intellectually honest enough to not present false data, or deliberately misrepresent things, to prove my point.  I found both articles disingenuous in the extreme in how they completely passed over the barbaric nature of the so-called "victims" in their haste to paint the U.S. as a villain.  As far as Libya goes - it embarasses me that the U.S. was shamed into action because FRANCE intervened in the cause of freedom!  And that intervention came far too late.  Gadaffi (or however you spell the guy's name) was teetering on the brink of flight, but then his forces got their legs under them, and intervention came when the rebellion was all but crushed.  Frankly, the world would be a better place if Reagan had succeeded in putting a Sidewinder missile up his a$$ 25 years ago!

Lester - as usual, you completely miss my point.  The goal of the Jihadist is the forcible conversion of the whole world to Islam.  If we pull out of the Middle East completely, they will first destroy Israel.  that may be a matter of indifference to you, but it is NOT to me. First of all, Israel is the most faithful ally America has ever had.  Secondly, they are far and away the most democratic, progressive, and liberal government (in the classical sense of the term) in that part of the world.  Their destruction would be a blow to the cause of freedom everywhere.  And, once they were gone, the jihadists would benefit from the worldwide glow of anti-Semitic Muslims everywhere - including those thousands that teach at American universities.  Volunteers would flock to their standard.
   And THEY WOULD COME FOR US.  They hate all we stand for.  They hate religious freedom.  They hate women's rights.  They hate free speech. They hate Christianity.  They hate scantily clad women.  They hate everything that doesn't involve bowing to Mecca, screaming "Allah Akbar," and beheading infidels!  you may be content to abandon all our defenses overseas and let them bring the fight to us, but I am NOT.  Better our soldiers battle to bring a little bit of civilization and enlightenment to the Middle East than to have a single American city go up in flames, or down in the choking death of a biological holocaust.  As far as the Muslims forming an army and marching roughshod over Europe, they don't have to.  They are taking over the place by demographics, and the change they have wrought is not a good one. Cartoonists threatened, filmmakers murdered, women in old European neighborhoods afraid to go out without a headscarf for fear of being jeered at, roughed up, and scorned as "infidel whores."  There is a battle for civilization going on, and you seem content for civlization to lose.

And, BTW, I am NOT out of the line of fire.  I am in the shadow of Dallas, where an Islamist was caught just last year in an attempt to blow up one of the tallest buildings in the city.  Fortunately his explosives salesman was an FBI plant, because he had a truck full of what he thought was ammonium nitrate parked by his target, and was arrested AFTER he pushed the button to make it blow . . .
Then another one was arrested just a few weeks ago, in the early stages of plotting attacks on a number of targets here in Texas.  They are not "oever here because we are over there."  They are over here, trying to destroy us, because they hate our way of life.
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« Reply #26 on: April 12, 2011, 10:05:58 AM »

Wow, Indy, that read almost like propaganda.

In one breath you say that we should be encouraging the anti-jihadist muslims, and in the next you're going on about how the entire Muslim world is inexcapably against us. The second point we are largely in agreement on, which would seem to the make the first point absurd. There is no reasoning with the middle east. They are diametrically, culturally, and, most of all, religiiously opposed to us. And now we get down to it.

This is really just a holy war, isn't it? And not just from Islam. What is really behind the Western world's virtual unconditional support of the state of Israel since 1948? You can go on and on about how they are the most democratic and the strongest ally the U.S. has ever had (which is rather insulting to England to name but one) and all of that, but when will you admit that this is all about the Biblical significance Israel holds for the Christian West? Why on Earth would we continue to lavish such support? They have almost no trade significance to us. Why do we do it?

Continuous support of them is at the very heart of the Muslim hatred of the West. This is nothing new. When are we going to admit that this is just the modern extension of the Crusades? The U.S. was supposed to throw off the shackles of the Old World and embrace the new. That was the whole point. And here we are embroiled in millenia old religious rivalries. There is no rational reason for it. I would really like to hear you claim that this is not primarily an alliance based on religious significance. Can your intellectual honesty about your bias allow you to do that? Can you say with an honest heart that were it not for such religious significance we would have lavished such support for so long? No, take away the religious significance, and Israelís importance to the U.S. drops to nearly nothing. I suspect we would have spent the last 60 years trying to set up healthy trade relationships instead of attracting aggression. The Middle East would probably be a healthier people for it as well. Iím speculating, but no more than you are when you talk about the results of discontinuing support of Israel. Iím neither glorifying nor condemning Israel, Iím simply talking about our government's real motivations here.

And if this is indeed an alliance of religious significance, and I believe it is, this evokes the burning question: does our government have the constitutional authority to do this? Clearly they do not. But they sidestep the matter and talk about anything but: they are so democratic, they are such a great ally, the alliance is crucial to maintaining stability (which is the silliest one Iíve heard), etc. Israel and Islam are at the very heart of instability in the middle-east, they always have been, and we are inextricably mired in it. The saddest part of that is that we are so deeply mired in it now that extricating ourselves from it is an extremely difficult task. The damage is done.

But then I guess I'm an unpatriotic American for these views, aren't I?
« Last Edit: April 12, 2011, 10:28:47 AM by Flick James » Logged

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« Reply #27 on: April 12, 2011, 10:49:58 AM »

Quote
The goal of the Jihadist is the forcible conversion of the whole world to Islam.  If we pull out of the Middle East completely, they will first destroy Israel.  that may be a matter of indifference to you, but it is NOT to me


thats fine. You feel israels existence is more important than the existence of my family, basically. I think this demonstrates quite clearly why I cannot support the war on terror. It would possibly mean I died so that Israel, a country invented in 1948, didn't have to go back to their actual borders like every other country in the world and could continue to drive the poeple who had lived there for the previous 18 CENTURIES and were kicked out because of the HOLOCAUST and other forms of EUROPEAN antisemtism out.

Sorry that's not a cause I'm willing to die for and If your butt was actually on the line you might think about it a little more critically too. Maybe if you had a family member who was almost killed you might see where the rubber meets the road a little clearer. sorry for the cliche.



Quote
First of all, Israel is the most faithful ally America has ever had.


is that supposed to be a point in their favor?  (we won't even get into the USS Liberty.) (edit: or Jonathan Pollard)

Quote
And, once they were gone, the jihadists would benefit from the worldwide glow of anti-Semitic Muslims everywhere - including those thousands that teach at American universities.  Volunteers would flock to their standard.



lol

Quote
And THEY WOULD COME FOR US.  They hate all we stand for.  They hate religious freedom.  They hate women's rights.  They hate free speech. They hate Christianity.  They hate scantily clad women.  They hate everything that doesn't involve bowing to Mecca, screaming "Allah Akbar," and beheading infidels!


?? That certainly isn't reflected in the day to day lives in any of their countries besides taliban era Afghanistan.

Iran




Lebanon note Hezbollah t shirt. I think I've posted this one before



Here's Amman Jordan. wow what a third world s**thole. look at those donkeys and camels






Quote
They are taking over the place by demographics, and the change they have wrought is not a good one. Cartoonists threatened, filmmakers murdered, women in old European neighborhoods afraid to go out without a headscarf for fear of being jeered at, roughed up, and scorned as "infidel whores."


well europeans should have more kids then. or adjust their immigration policies.

war just creates more refugees who will go and do all this stuff. You are arguing against your whole point there.


Quote
They are not "oever here because we are over there."  They are over here, trying to destroy us, because they hate our way of life


blowback is probably the most basic conept there is. If you can't grasp that I don't know what to tell you.


bottom line: anti islam / pro israel stuff is the path of least resisence for a mainstream republican like yourself. You should really try and show a little more fortitude and go out on a limb and think some of this stuff through a bit. Everyone should, its the only thing that can save our country, we are heading over the same cliff Rome did.

question: Would you completely bankrupt this country and destroy it in order to save israel? If so, does that not make you an enemy of this country, for practical purposes.

Can'tyou religous fundamentalists just leave the rest of us alone??
« Last Edit: April 12, 2011, 11:15:03 AM by lester1/2jr » Logged

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« Reply #28 on: April 12, 2011, 02:04:15 PM »

OK, I am much more awake now, and I went back and read both articles.  I'll be honest - this man twists and distorts history in a way that is frightening.

In the second article, he begins by arguing that the West set the stage for World War II by cutting off steel and fuel exports to Japan.  He never even mentions that our doing so was in direct response to Japan's invasion of China, the rape of Nanking, and the brutal murder of some 300,000 Chinese civilians.
Oh no!  It was the wicked old West cutting off Japan's access to resources just to be mean!

Seriously, now.

Yeah really. I suppose we supplied the steel that made the katanas they beheaded countless hundreds of thousands of other inocent Asians with.  Oh yeah, we also put a drug into their water that made them subject innocent women to multiple rape, only to be vaginally impaled upon a stake afterwards.

Oh yeah, we supplied the shovels that the innocent men used to dig graves at gunpoint, graves they shared with their families after the Japanese soldiers shot them in the head.

What a bunch of bullsh*t, isn't it, Indy?  Lookingup


As for "setting the stage for WW2."  What, no Treaty of Versailles?

No mention of France using the Treaty to legally abuse and attempt to destroy post WW1 Germans as reprisal for their age-old rivalry?

I could go on about the Treaty, but the state of desperation France imposed upon Germany was largely responsible for WW2 (among other things.) 

Sounds like some people should re-visit history before laying blame.

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Malatu na nou karan.
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Heca, Pellani! Agabaiyane Ehlnadaya!
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« Reply #29 on: April 12, 2011, 02:12:21 PM »

Quote
I could go on about the Treaty, but the state of desperation France imposed upon Germany was largely responsible for WW2 (among other things.) 

I'm sure the Author would agree. I think he was referring more to the Asian theatre. Being into revisionism it's hard for me to tell but don't most people accept the treaty of Versailles as being at least one major thing that led to ww2?
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