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Author Topic: POLITICAL THREAD (PF) ENTER AT YOUR RISK  (Read 2531 times)
Flick James
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« Reply #30 on: April 12, 2011, 02:16:28 PM »

Quote
Everyone should, its the only thing that can save our country, we are heading over the same cliff Rome did.


The correlations are more than noteworthy, they're downright staggering. Yet, sadly, few choose to acknowledge it. I hate to use the tired cliche quote of "those who forget history are doomed to repeat it," but it's more than a little appropo. I would apply it to my previous post about this damn religious war we're embroiled in.

Politicians actually go so far on occasion as to openly admit that the support of Israel is religious at it's very root, although such a statement goes in direct violation of the Establishment Clause. Senator James Inhofe (R) of Oklahoma made a statement on the Senate floor in 2002 that can be found here:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/660883/posts

Item 2 is just laughable. It opens with:

2. The second proof of Israel’s right to the land is the historic right.

History supports it totally and completely. We know there had been an Israel up until the time of the Roman Empire. The Romans conquered the land, although Jews were allowed to live there. They were driven from the land in two dispersions: One was in 70 A.D. and the other was in 135 A.D. But there was always a Jewish presence in the land.


Wouldn't that rationale justify the immediate turnover of the government of the U.S. back to the native Americans?

Item 7 is the clincher, the one that everything really rests on:

7. The seventh, and most important, reason why we ought to support Israel is because G-d said so.

Look it up in the book of Genesis. In Genesis 13:14-17, the Bible says: The L-rd said to Abram, “Lift up now your eyes, and look from the place where you are northward, and southward, and eastward and westward: for all the land which you see, to you will I give it, and to your seed forever....Arise, walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it; for I will give it to thee.”

That is G-d talking.

The Bible says that Abram removed his tent and came and dwelt in the plain of Mamre, which is in Hebron, and built there an altar before the L-rd. Hebron is in the West Bank. It is at this place where G-d appeared to Abram and said, “I am giving you this land” — the West Bank. This is not a political battle at all. It is a contest over whether or not the Word of G-d is true.


Wow. Not a political battle at all ay? Foreign policy based on quotes from the Bible. I defy anybody to explain in a rational way how this is NOT a brazen disregard for the Establishment Clause.
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Umaril The Unfeathered
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« Reply #31 on: April 12, 2011, 03:02:05 PM »

Quote
I could go on about the Treaty, but the state of desperation France imposed upon Germany was largely responsible for WW2 (among other things.) 

I'm sure the Author would agree. I think he was referring more to the Asian theatre. Being into revisionism it's hard for me to tell but don't most people accept the treaty of Versailles as being at least one major thing that led to ww2?

I'm sure there are some who do accept the Treaty's role in WW2, but when people omit facts just to play blame based on popular opinion, (which seems to be the big thing these days) facts have a tendency to get overlooked.

I agree that the author was trying to say that America was largely responsible for WW2 in one theatre (the Pacific theatre) to be sure.

However, we have to be real, and recognize that, in the Blame Game, a lot of additional blame upon America (or any scapegoat)  is created thru the coupling of media propaganda and the popular opinion it creates.

Add to that, the piggybacking and conflation of one or more issues or events where one side sees themselves as the victim, and there you have it..one person, country, or race seen as the root of all evil.  Nothing new, really.


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Flick James
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« Reply #32 on: April 12, 2011, 03:13:23 PM »

Quote
I'm sure there are some who do accept the Treaty's role in WW2, but when people omit facts just to play blame based on popular opinion, (which seems to be the big thing these days) facts have a tendency to get overlooked.

Nope. There is a pretty solid consensus amongst most historians, not mere public opinion as you would claim, that the conditions caused by the Treaty of Versailles played a significant role in bringing about WWII. Not the only factor, certainly, but I'm not sure why one would deny that it was anything less than significant.
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Umaril The Unfeathered
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« Reply #33 on: April 12, 2011, 03:47:02 PM »

Quote
I'm sure there are some who do accept the Treaty's role in WW2, but when people omit facts just to play blame based on popular opinion, (which seems to be the big thing these days) facts have a tendency to get overlooked.

Nope. There is a pretty solid consensus amongst most historians, not mere public opinion as you would claim, that the conditions caused by the Treaty of Versailles played a significant role in bringing about WWII. Not the only factor, certainly, but I'm not sure why one would deny that it was anything less than significant.

True, very true. 

I wasn't speaking in terms of a general denial of the Treaty. The Treaty is fact.

I basically meant that there are some people who will (and have)  conveniently denied historical fact for their own purposes, instead of examining both sides of the issue, and the possible role their side (or the side of those they support) may have played in whatever incident is in question.   

Hope that helps clear it up a bit.  Smile
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« Reply #34 on: April 12, 2011, 04:00:59 PM »

I was debating a lefty guy on twitter who was adament that the great depression caused the nazis. I was like well hyperinflation was before the great depression. I think his narrative was a little too convenient, not to mention ahistorical.
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Umaril The Unfeathered
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« Reply #35 on: April 12, 2011, 04:27:24 PM »

I was debating a lefty guy on twitter who was adament that the great depression caused the nazis. I was like well hyperinflation was before the great depression. I think his narrative was a little too convenient, not to mention ahistorical.

Hmm...interesting point.  It's said that the hyperinflation of the German dollar was a chain of dominoes that caused the Great Depression, being that it happened before the GD (if I'm right.)  I believe that this was because Germany was a great player on the commercial\industrial economic stage prior to WW1. It's destruction greatly affected the world stage.

Certainly, the re-militarization of Germany put many people back to work and created jobs, but who knew it would have led to where it got to?

WW1 happened for many racial and imperial reasons as well, chief among them, the old and continuing rivalries from the Franco-Prussian war of 1871,  and the will of the Eastern Europeans to wrest free of Austro-Hungarian control, thus the murder of Archduke Ferdinand and Princess Sophie of Hohnberg, which was the main catalyst.

WW2? I guess we're still finding out why even after almost 70 years after it's end.

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Tam-Riel na nou Sancremath.
Dawn's Beauty is our shining home.

An varlais, nou bala, an kynd, nou latta.
The stars are our power, the sky is our light.

Malatu na nou karan.
Truth is our armor.

Malatu na bala
Truth is power.

Heca, Pellani! Agabaiyane Ehlnadaya!
Be gone, outsiders! I do not fear your mortal gods!

Auri-El na nou ata, ye A, Umaril, an Aran!
Aure-El is our father, and I, Umaril, the king!
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« Reply #36 on: April 12, 2011, 04:34:04 PM »

one book I have thats fascinating though heavy on the business/ economics side and not all that accesible to others is "The Vampire Economy". It was written iduring the 3rd reich and goes in to detail about what fascist economic policies actually amounted to, which was a demented hodgepadge of socialism, racism, and just whatever random people at the top felt like doing.


an illustration

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Flick James
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« Reply #37 on: April 12, 2011, 04:43:50 PM »

Quote
Certainly, the re-militarization of Germany put many people back to work and created jobs, but who knew it would have led to where it got to?

The plain truth is that militarization during an economic depression is widely accepted by the public for that very reason.
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Umaril The Unfeathered
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« Reply #38 on: April 12, 2011, 04:57:27 PM »

Quote
Certainly, the re-militarization of Germany put many people back to work and created jobs, but who knew it would have led to where it got to?

The plain truth is that militarization during an economic depression is widely accepted by the public for that very reason.


True. War is good for the economy, but bad for people. I don't think that's gonna change any time soon..
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Tam-Riel na nou Sancremath.
Dawn's Beauty is our shining home.

An varlais, nou bala, an kynd, nou latta.
The stars are our power, the sky is our light.

Malatu na nou karan.
Truth is our armor.

Malatu na bala
Truth is power.

Heca, Pellani! Agabaiyane Ehlnadaya!
Be gone, outsiders! I do not fear your mortal gods!

Auri-El na nou ata, ye A, Umaril, an Aran!
Aure-El is our father, and I, Umaril, the king!
Flick James
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« Reply #39 on: April 12, 2011, 05:18:06 PM »

Quote
Certainly, the re-militarization of Germany put many people back to work and created jobs, but who knew it would have led to where it got to?

The plain truth is that militarization during an economic depression is widely accepted by the public for that very reason.


True. War is good for the economy, but bad for people. I don't think that's gonna change any time soon..

It's not good for the economy, as it does not produce any wealth. It's only good for people who want jobs. Wars are costly and they create debt. I served six years in the military out of a sense of duty and not out of economic necessity as you are seeing more and more today. Peolpe are now being turned away who are turning to the military in increasing numbers out of economic desperation, because Congress can't come together to solve the budget and because the U.S. debt ceiling has reached it's limit. This is not due strictly to our wars of course, as our debt comes from many factors, entitlement-spending and inefficient government bureaucracy being the rest of the pie. The fact remains that war escalates debt, which can hardly be good for the economy when it's debt ceiling has reached it's limit. And now you have Congress fighting over which to cut: military or entitlement. Both need to be scaled back, of course, but Ron Paul seems to be the only member of Congress that understands that.
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indianasmith
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« Reply #40 on: April 12, 2011, 11:05:13 PM »

Man, this thread has really gone a ways since my last post . . . and I am pretty dead on my feet.  So tell you what: I'll try and frame a coherent reply tomorrow.

I have GOT to get to bed at some point.

But everyone did get some decent licks in, I will say that!
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« Reply #41 on: April 12, 2011, 11:16:22 PM »

\

7. The seventh, and most important, reason why we ought to support Israel is because G-d said so.

Look it up in the book of Genesis. In Genesis 13:14-17, the Bible says: The L-rd said to Abram, “Lift up now your eyes, and look from the place where you are northward, and southward, and eastward and westward: for all the land which you see, to you will I give it, and to your seed forever....Arise, walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it; for I will give it to thee.”

That is G-d talking.

The Bible says that Abram removed his tent and came and dwelt in the plain of Mamre, which is in Hebron, and built there an altar before the L-rd. Hebron is in the West Bank. It is at this place where G-d appeared to Abram and said, “I am giving you this land” — the West Bank. This is not a political battle at all. It is a contest over whether or not the Word of G-d is true.


Wow. Not a political battle at all ay? Foreign policy based on quotes from the Bible. I defy anybody to explain in a rational way how this is NOT a brazen disregard for the Establishment Clause.

It doesn't establish a religion.  Seriously, I don't the guy's position either, but it's perfectly legitimate under our system of government to elect representatives who pursue religious aims in foreign (that's democracy in action), so long as they don't establish an official religion. 
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Flick James
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« Reply #42 on: April 13, 2011, 09:34:17 AM »

\

7. The seventh, and most important, reason why we ought to support Israel is because G-d said so.

Look it up in the book of Genesis. In Genesis 13:14-17, the Bible says: The L-rd said to Abram, “Lift up now your eyes, and look from the place where you are northward, and southward, and eastward and westward: for all the land which you see, to you will I give it, and to your seed forever....Arise, walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it; for I will give it to thee.”

That is G-d talking.

The Bible says that Abram removed his tent and came and dwelt in the plain of Mamre, which is in Hebron, and built there an altar before the L-rd. Hebron is in the West Bank. It is at this place where G-d appeared to Abram and said, “I am giving you this land” — the West Bank. This is not a political battle at all. It is a contest over whether or not the Word of G-d is true.


Wow. Not a political battle at all ay? Foreign policy based on quotes from the Bible. I defy anybody to explain in a rational way how this is NOT a brazen disregard for the Establishment Clause.

It doesn't establish a religion.  Seriously, I don't the guy's position either, but it's perfectly legitimate under our system of government to elect representatives who pursue religious aims in foreign (that's democracy in action), so long as they don't establish an official religion. 

We're not talking about opposing the Church of England in the 1700's here. It's generally interpreted as prohibiting the establishment of an official religion and the preference by the U.S. government of one religion over another. Last time I checked, Christianity was a religion.

I couldn't care less what religion members of Congress practice, but when they start making laws or policy decisions that observe a specific religious doctrine, and this would include the protection of Israel based on Biblical scripture, this is most undoubtedly favoring one religion over another.

 
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« Reply #43 on: April 13, 2011, 02:14:08 PM »

\

7. The seventh, and most important, reason why we ought to support Israel is because G-d said so.

Look it up in the book of Genesis. In Genesis 13:14-17, the Bible says: The L-rd said to Abram, “Lift up now your eyes, and look from the place where you are northward, and southward, and eastward and westward: for all the land which you see, to you will I give it, and to your seed forever....Arise, walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it; for I will give it to thee.”

That is G-d talking.

The Bible says that Abram removed his tent and came and dwelt in the plain of Mamre, which is in Hebron, and built there an altar before the L-rd. Hebron is in the West Bank. It is at this place where G-d appeared to Abram and said, “I am giving you this land” — the West Bank. This is not a political battle at all. It is a contest over whether or not the Word of G-d is true.


Wow. Not a political battle at all ay? Foreign policy based on quotes from the Bible. I defy anybody to explain in a rational way how this is NOT a brazen disregard for the Establishment Clause.

It doesn't establish a religion.  Seriously, I don't the guy's position either, but it's perfectly legitimate under our system of government to elect representatives who pursue religious aims in foreign (that's democracy in action), so long as they don't establish an official religion. 

We're not talking about opposing the Church of England in the 1700's here. It's generally interpreted as prohibiting the establishment of an official religion and the preference by the U.S. government of one religion over another. Last time I checked, Christianity was a religion.

I couldn't care less what religion members of Congress practice, but when they start making laws or policy decisions that observe a specific religious doctrine, and this would include the protection of Israel based on Biblical scripture, this is most undoubtedly favoring one religion over another.

 

The first amendment contains a prohibition against establishing a religion.  But the legislature is presumed to represent the will of the people and has a Constitutional mandate to express that will.  They can constitutionally pursue policies that some religious basis so long as they don't cross the line into establishing religion.  (No one argues laws against murder are unconstitutional because legislators were motivated by the teachings of the Ten Commandments).  Because there's nothing blatantly unconstitutional on its face about supporting Israel---the guy offers six other non-religious rationales for the policy---it doesn't matter that one Congressman's motivation for that position is a religious one.     

I'm not saying I'm comfortable with that guy's reasoning and I wouldn't vote for someone who holds those sorts of beliefs, but you defied someone to explain in a rational way how this was not a brazen disregard of the Establishment Clause.  Even if his position violated the clause, which I think is a huge stretch, it would require several steps of reasoning to explain how supporting Israel equals the establishment of a state religion---so it's at least not a "brazen disregard" of the clause.   
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Flick James
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« Reply #44 on: April 13, 2011, 02:26:20 PM »

\

7. The seventh, and most important, reason why we ought to support Israel is because G-d said so.

Look it up in the book of Genesis. In Genesis 13:14-17, the Bible says: The L-rd said to Abram, “Lift up now your eyes, and look from the place where you are northward, and southward, and eastward and westward: for all the land which you see, to you will I give it, and to your seed forever....Arise, walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it; for I will give it to thee.”

That is G-d talking.

The Bible says that Abram removed his tent and came and dwelt in the plain of Mamre, which is in Hebron, and built there an altar before the L-rd. Hebron is in the West Bank. It is at this place where G-d appeared to Abram and said, “I am giving you this land” — the West Bank. This is not a political battle at all. It is a contest over whether or not the Word of G-d is true.


Wow. Not a political battle at all ay? Foreign policy based on quotes from the Bible. I defy anybody to explain in a rational way how this is NOT a brazen disregard for the Establishment Clause.

It doesn't establish a religion.  Seriously, I don't the guy's position either, but it's perfectly legitimate under our system of government to elect representatives who pursue religious aims in foreign (that's democracy in action), so long as they don't establish an official religion. 

We're not talking about opposing the Church of England in the 1700's here. It's generally interpreted as prohibiting the establishment of an official religion and the preference by the U.S. government of one religion over another. Last time I checked, Christianity was a religion.

I couldn't care less what religion members of Congress practice, but when they start making laws or policy decisions that observe a specific religious doctrine, and this would include the protection of Israel based on Biblical scripture, this is most undoubtedly favoring one religion over another.

 

The first amendment contains a prohibition against establishing a religion.  But the legislature is presumed to represent the will of the people and has a Constitutional mandate to express that will.  They can constitutionally pursue policies that some religious basis so long as they don't cross the line into establishing religion.  (No one argues laws against murder are unconstitutional because legislators were motivated by the teachings of the Ten Commandments).  Because there's nothing blatantly unconstitutional on its face about supporting Israel---the guy offers six other non-religious rationales for the policy---it doesn't matter that one Congressman's motivation for that position is a religious one.     

I'm not saying I'm comfortable with that guy's reasoning and I wouldn't vote for someone who holds those sorts of beliefs, but you defied someone to explain in a rational way how this was not a brazen disregard of the Establishment Clause.  Even if his position violated the clause, which I think is a huge stretch, it would require several steps of reasoning to explain how supporting Israel equals the establishment of a state religion---so it's at least not a "brazen disregard" of the clause.   

Fair enough. I stand corrected on a rational explanation. I guess one can be made. However, the 1st Amendment, like most amendments, goes beyond the literal text of the Bill of Rights. If you research the 1st Amendment, it is widely interpreted to include laws and policies that favor one religion over another, and so, to amend my original statement, I defy anybody to rationally explain how this is NOT advocating a policy favoring one religion over another.

Also, he made it clear that the "God's Will" reason was the most important. The rest are just questionable motives used to escape having to admit that our support is primarily based on Biblical scripture. Take away the Biblical significance and Israel just becomes another piece of ground.

I understand you're not arguing my position, you're simply keeping it to Constitutional technicalities, in which case you have a point.
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