Decline Of The Western Civilization Part 2 (1988)

[Psycho Circus]

Following on from RC's thread about DWC Part I, is there anyone here that's a fan of second documentary?

Surprise, surprise as I am a massive fan, yet the movie splits me right down the middle whilst viewing it. On one hand it's everything I love about hard rock/heavy metal in the 1980s and the overall culture. It speaks out to my inner revlon, gutter-trash, aquanet, hairball headbanger yet at the same time embarrasses me and opens my eyes to why the hollywood scene died out, soulless debauchery and how people view the music I listen to with utter contempt.

It's a good snapshot of the sunset strip scene, which was absolutely huge and will not be repeated again and although most of the bands on display were not the cream of the crop, I've always felt they gave decent performances (barring Faster p***ycat). I think Penelope Spheeris went out of her way to make a lot of people look stupid for the sake of entertainment, as many of the non-rockstars interviewed basically lined up and hung themselves. Some say that this movie killed the glam/hard rock scene but there's more too it than that. Every decade, every scene that comes along sees change. People get sick and tired of having stuff rammed down their throats 24/7 and after a while of a particular type of music or show etc. going mainstream (as nearly everything does) the public turn on it for the next big thing. One thing though is that glam/heavy metal had a longer stay in the limelight than the grunge/alternative movement...

[Nightowl]

Its been years since I caught this on IFC, but I absolutely loved it. I'm not what you would call a metalhead, but I still rather enjoyed it. Favorite scene is when Ozzy is pouring some orange juice in his glass and misses it    I still haven't seen DWC Part I, so I cant tell if it's better or not.

[WilliamWeird1313]

Following on from RC's thread about DWC Part I, is there anyone here that's a fan of second documentary?

Surprise, surprise as I am a massive fan, yet the movie splits me right down the middle whilst viewing it. On one hand it's everything I love about hard rock/heavy metal in the 1980s and the overall culture. It speaks out to my inner revlon, gutter-trash, aquanet, hairball headbanger yet at the same time embarrasses me and opens my eyes to why the hollywood scene died out, soulless debauchery and how people view the music I listen to with utter contempt.

It's a good snapshot of the sunset strip scene, which was absolutely huge and will not be repeated again and although most of the bands on display were not the cream of the crop, I've always felt they gave decent performances (barring Faster p***ycat). I think Penelope Spheeris went out of her way to make a lot of people look stupid for the sake of entertainment, as many of the non-rockstars interviewed basically lined up and hung themselves. Some say that this movie killed the glam/hard rock scene but there's more too it than that. Every decade, every scene that comes along sees change. People get sick and tired of having stuff rammed down their throats 24/7 and after a while of a particular type of music or show etc. going mainstream (as nearly everything does) the public turn on it for the next big thing. One thing though is that glam/heavy metal had a longer stay in the limelight than the grunge/alternative movement...

I'm a fan of both of the first two Decline films, both the punk one and the metal one (I've never seen the third one, which focuses on crust punk). The Josh Holmes scene is obviously stuff of legend, but I oddly quite like the Poison interview excerpts. I'm not a fan, but their attitude is so jovial and friendly, and they seem so gushingly thankful for their success, it kind of goes against what you'd expect (i.e. that they're spoiled hedonist rock stars, which is what comes across from, say, the Kiss and Aerosmith interview segments). I have, however, always gotten the sense (like you) that Spheeris isn't exactly the most honest documentarian. Whenever I've seen interviews with her, I've always gotten the impression of her being dismissive, manipulative, overly conservative, and lacking a true fundamental understanding of the ideas & ideals behind the subjects she's documenting). That said, I'm not going to argue that the glam metal scene of the day was a haven of innocence, as, let's face it, it was one big neon orgy of debauchery, decadence, and ultimate excess. In some ways, that's a lot of fun, but while I feel that some of Spheeris' subjects were somewhat misrepresented (namely Ozzy and Lemmy), I think the Josh Holmes scene is probably 100% authentic in its portrayal of the dark side of the Sunset Strip scene.

I don't think that Decline 2 killed the scene. I think, like any cultural phenomenon, it's time simply came and went. I don't think the movie gets to take credit for assassinating glam. If anything, I think it gets more credit for being a minor time capsule that has actually kept several aspects of the scene (its imagery, the general vibe of the time, etc.) alive for future generations. At the time it came out, it strikes me as having been, much like the first Decline film, less a serious objective chronicle of a subculture or counterculture movement that was, at the time, on the cusp of actually becoming the mainstream culture, and more of a down-the-nose exploitation "exhibit" of a supposed "low culture" by a supposed "higher class" society of "artistes." That's just my take, though.

As for which one I like better, I think Decline 1 is the better film (and the more honest one, although I have issues with that one as well), but I find Decline 2 more enjoyable, and I'm much more likely to watch that one over the first one.

One thing I would've liked to see was a little more of a look at the "war" between thrash metal and glam at the time, which you really only get a small taste of courtesy of Dave Mustaine.

[Psycho Circus]

I'm a fan of both of the first two Decline films, both the punk one and the metal one (I've never seen the third one, which focuses on crust punk). The Josh Holmes scene is obviously stuff of legend, but I oddly quite like the Poison interview excerpts. I'm not a fan, but their attitude is so jovial and friendly, and they seem so gushingly thankful for their success, it kind of goes against what you'd expect (i.e. that they're spoiled hedonist rock stars, which is what comes across from, say, the Kiss and Aerosmith interview segments). I have, however, always gotten the sense (like you) that Spheeris isn't exactly the most honest documentarian. Whenever I've seen interviews with her, I've always gotten the impression of her being dismissive, manipulative, overly conservative, and lacking a true fundamental understanding of the ideas & ideals behind the subjects she's documenting). That said, I'm not going to argue that the glam metal scene of the day was a haven of innocence, as, let's face it, it was one big neon orgy of debauchery, decadence, and ultimate excess. In some ways, that's a lot of fun, but while I feel that some of Spheeris' subjects were somewhat misrepresented (namely Ozzy and Lemmy), I think the Josh Holmes scene is probably 100% authentic in its portrayal of the dark side of the Sunset Strip scene.

You mean the pool scene with "Chris" Holmes (W.A.S.P.). A lot of people think that scene was faked, what with his mother being there and all, but at the time the guy was a monster alcoholic. That scene is 100% genuine. The scene that most people are led to believe is real is the one with Ozzy making breakfast and spilling his juice. It's fake. The close-up shots were added in later on. I'm pretty sure Ozzy was capable of pouring a glass of orange in 1988, but it's safe to say he wouldn't manage it now!

As for Poison, they were like kids in a candy store. Very much a band who at the time were probably counting their blessings as they had been living in a laundromat and gigging nearly every night at every bar on the strip. They worked hard, even though they have never been a musically gifted band. It's all about luck and timing as well as hard work and talent. I must say my favourite moment is when they're interviewing the band Seduce (very underrated 3-piece) and the question of "who's biggest band in Detroit" is put to the lead guitar player, to which he confidently responds "us". That moment has to be one the most rock n' roll things I've seen and heard. It was pure, straight from the heart and balls, totally cool...

It's at 4:00 mins in this video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_T6rUJG_OY
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[WilliamWeird1313]

Whoops! Yeah, I meant "Chris" Holmes. Lol. I was thinking of a different musician with the same last name. Anyway, yeah, I've seen a lot of interviews with him since then and you can tell the guy had a lot of problems and that his Decline footage was for real.

[Allhallowsday]

Though I'd expect to like Part 1, I can't remember much of it.  I have seen Part 2 a couple of times on IFC and really enjoy it.  It all seems rather innocent now.

[lester1/2jr]

I liked this movie but as someone who was into metal at the time I think glam rock had simply been done to death. The first thing that killed it was Guns N Roses, who started more into the black leather sort of biker thing. Then one day "smells like teen spirit" came on the air and that was it. Many bands like Janes Addiction, Soundgarden,  Primus and the Chili Peppers who had been around a long time and built up fan bases started getting mainstream exposure and soon new but genuinely popular bands like Alice in Chains or Pearl Jam benefitted from that.

I think what these groups had that the glam rock ones didn't were singles that weren't ballads. The only songs MTV played from the glam bands most of the time were the ballads and when you were watching headbangers ball for example, it was the LAST thing you wanted to see. You wanted to see Slayer or "Painkiller".

When glam started to get a revival of sorts post grunge I was a little shocked. I had only known ballads from most of those groups and they were pretty interchangeable. I think me and my friends had a modicum of respect for some of the hard rocking stuff just as musicians and could appreciate Dangerous Toys or whatever, but we were much more into punk and stuff anyway.

[Psycho Circus]

I think what these groups had that the glam rock ones didn't were singles that weren't ballads. The only songs MTV played from the glam bands most of the time were the ballads and when you were watching headbangers ball for example, it was the LAST thing you wanted to see. You wanted to see Slayer or "Painkiller".

That was all to do with label pressure. Once Bon Jovi had started pumping ballads out and Poison scored big with "Every Rose Has Its Thorn", every band that got signed to major was either forced to have their first single be a ballad or water down their sound. It still goes on today of course, with a lot of musicians with raw talent and originality who get signed and then the label changes them to try and fit with what's current. They lose some of the initial fan-base and don't realise their potential. At the tail end of the 80s and into the early 90s lots of great bands fell by the wayside, because their particular "ballad" didn't take off. Prime examples of solid hard rocks acts that got that kind of treatment include; Kix, Every Mother's Nightmare, Keel, Steelheart, Cats In Boots, the list goes on.....By 1988 there was a signing frenzy at the labels, but if you didn't shift product in big numbers straight off the bat, then your ass got dropped and you were on the next greyhound bus outta California.

[Allhallowsday]

I think what these groups had that the glam rock ones didn't were singles that weren't ballads. The only songs MTV played from the glam bands most of the time were the ballads and when you were watching headbangers ball for example, it was the LAST thing you wanted to see. You wanted to see Slayer or "Painkiller".

That was all to do with label pressure. Once Bon Jovi had started pumping ballads out and Poison scored big with "Every Rose Has Its Thorn", every band that got signed to major was either forced to have their first single be a ballad or water down their sound. It still goes on today of course, with a lot of musicians with raw talent and originality who get signed and then the label changes them to try and fit with what's current. They lose some of the initial fan-base and don't realise their potential. At the tail end of the 80s and into the early 90s lots of great bands fell by the wayside, because their particular "ballad" didn't take off. Prime examples of solid hard rocks acts that got that kind of treatment include; Kix, Every Mother's Nightmare, Keel, Steelheart, Cats In Boots, the list goes on.....By 1988 there was a signing frenzy at the labels, but if you didn't shift product in big numbers straight off the bat, then your ass got dropped and you were on the next greyhound bus outta California.

I think that was because the perceived greatest successes of that era were Pop charters.  It's always been about volume, eh? 
Excellent remarks.  

[WilliamWeird1313]

I think what these groups had that the glam rock ones didn't were singles that weren't ballads. The only songs MTV played from the glam bands most of the time were the ballads and when you were watching headbangers ball for example, it was the LAST thing you wanted to see. You wanted to see Slayer or "Painkiller".

That was all to do with label pressure. Once Bon Jovi had started pumping ballads out and Poison scored big with "Every Rose Has Its Thorn", every band that got signed to major was either forced to have their first single be a ballad or water down their sound. It still goes on today of course, with a lot of musicians with raw talent and originality who get signed and then the label changes them to try and fit with what's current. They lose some of the initial fan-base and don't realise their potential. At the tail end of the 80s and into the early 90s lots of great bands fell by the wayside, because their particular "ballad" didn't take off. Prime examples of solid hard rocks acts that got that kind of treatment include; Kix, Every Mother's Nightmare, Keel, Steelheart, Cats In Boots, the list goes on.....By 1988 there was a signing frenzy at the labels, but if you didn't shift product in big numbers straight off the bat, then your ass got dropped and you were on the next greyhound bus outta California.

Reminds me of the story about how Warrant's "Cherry Pie" single came about. Apparently, after the band had completed the recording of their album "Uncle Tom's Cabin" the label came to them and said they "didn't hear a hit single" in it. The band then quickly cobbled together "Cherry Pie" in an attempt to write a fun, raunchy, kind of party anthem. They succeeded to the point that the label changed the name of the album to "Cherry Pie." Incidentally, I think "Uncle Tom's Cabin," the track that the album was originally named after, was and is a much more interesting and evocative piece of songwriting. It's kind of a bummer that they sort of became known almost solely (at least in the mainstream public consciousess) as "the Cherry Pie guys." That's not to say I disllike the song. Or the video, for that matter. 

[Psycho Circus]

Reminds me of the story about how Warrant's "Cherry Pie" single came about. Apparently, after the band had completed the recording of their album "Uncle Tom's Cabin" the label came to them and said they "didn't hear a hit single" in it. The band then quickly cobbled together "Cherry Pie" in an attempt to write a fun, raunchy, kind of party anthem. They succeeded to the point that the label changed the name of the album to "Cherry Pie." Incidentally, I think "Uncle Tom's Cabin," the track that the album was originally named after, was and is a much more interesting and evocative piece of songwriting. It's kind of a bummer that they sort of became known almost solely (at least in the mainstream public consciousess) as "the Cherry Pie guys." That's not to say I disllike the song. Or the video, for that matter. 

Oh for sure. "Cherry Pie" is a definitive song of the party rock genre in both a good and bad way. In defence of it, I'd say that you have to look at it from the view of music not having to be serious all the time and that, being able to have danceable rock tunes isn't so awful. The song itself is not a good one, I love it, but it was written in 5 minutes and it shows. It was the same unfortunate scenario with Winger's "Seventeen (which I also love), quickly written "hit" that ultimately killed the band's credibility. You're exactly right about "Uncle Tom's Cabin", it's a fantastic song which shows Warrant's heavier/darker side and I can't believe they weren't nominated for a Grammy with it. They're actually one of a number of bands from that time who were also much heavier live than on record due again, to label meddling.

[slimrockwell]

I loved both films. I'm a fan of both punk and metal and found these documentaries to be very informative and interesting. A good glimpse of the scenes that spawned the music I love but weren't there to be a part of.

[Psycho Circus]

For anyone who has never seen this clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qKlZELdJh8
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He's been sober for a couple of years now 

But I wish he was still in W.A.S.P. 

[lester1/2jr]

In the 50 most awesomely bad songs ever or something on VH1 the guy from Warrant said his manager told him to write something like "love in an Elevator" .  He goes "I wrote Cherry Pie, and I have to live with that."

[Psycho Circus]

In the 50 most awesomely bad songs ever or something on VH1 the guy from Warrant said his manager told him to write something like "love in an Elevator" .  He goes "I wrote Cherry Pie, and I have to live with that."

Yeah, I think I saw that program when it aired over here. It practically drove Jani Lane to drink and has attributed to most of his problems on and off stage. He became the "cherry pie" guy, got dropped by Columbia and saw his marriage break up. The guy hasn't got the best set of pipes in the world but he is a talented song writer. All the people that slate Warrant should take a listen to their Dog Eat Dog album. It's the band's best work by a mile, really mature (most of it).