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October 24, 2014, 07:46:09 PM
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Badmovies.org Forum  |  Other Topics  |  Off Topic Discussion  |  Occupy Everything! « previous next »
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Author Topic: Occupy Everything!  (Read 2192 times)
trekgeezer
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« Reply #15 on: November 18, 2011, 12:02:09 PM »

Man, I'm disappointed in you guys , you don't have a clue, this movement ain't going away.  I've been mesmerized with this thing since it started .

First off it's not just a bunch of partying kids.  The mayor of Oakland's legal advisor resigned over the police raids , and yesterday when the protestors almost shut down the

down the New York stock exchange, a bunch of New York city council members joined in with Occupy.

They are saying that yesterday was the beginning.

The 99% are the middle class and poor in this country, if you haven't noticed the Middle class in this country is swirling down the drain.


Do some research before you judge these folks
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« Reply #16 on: November 18, 2011, 01:51:01 PM »

Man, I'm disappointed in you guys , you don't have a clue, this movement ain't going away.  I've been mesmerized with this thing since it started .

First off it's not just a bunch of partying kids.  The mayor of Oakland's legal advisor resigned over the police raids , and yesterday when the protestors almost shut down the

down the New York stock exchange, a bunch of New York city council members joined in with Occupy.

They are saying that yesterday was the beginning.

The 99% are the middle class and poor in this country, if you haven't noticed the Middle class in this country is swirling down the drain.


Do some research before you judge these folks

I never said that it was going away. My point is it is a misdirected movement that is harming economic recovery, not helping it.

What I wonder is, what is the expectation? I have yet to hear a coherent answer. To send a message? If so, what's the message? What is the outcome? Can you tell me what it is? I'm genuinely eager to learn. I haven't researched this movement thoroughly as I don't feel a need. Whenever I read an article it looks like little more than a mob with a lot of anger.

So, anyway, I'm curious to know what the agenda is.

My agenda is I would like to see this country recover. It can be done. It is NOT going to be done by the Occupy Wall Street movement. Ask any econimist, this is fundamental stuff. At times when this country has seen really hard times, the recovery happened when people got back to work. And please don't tell me "well don't you think they would be working if they could?" Because I'll tell you that I firmly believe that at least a decent portion of protestors have NOT done all they can. You can't tell me there isn't a significant component of them that have spent more time and energy protesting than they have seeking employment or volunteering or doing something positive.

Fine. Protest. Shut down businesses. Just don't kid yourself that this is about recovery. This is about collapse, and bringing the whole thing down. What exactly do you think the aftermath will be like? Do you think all the wrongs of a corporatist state will be righted? Occupy Wall Street is not going to change the fact that there is an enormous population of people in the Eastern hemisphere, much larger than our own, who ARE ready to work, and are more than happy to pick up the pieces.


Just what research am I supposed to do?
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JaseSF
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« Reply #17 on: November 18, 2011, 09:22:15 PM »

I honestly believe a lot of people feel they are fighting as much for their rights as a lot of protestors overseas are also continuing to do as well. The police actions remind me of a dictatorship, not a free country.
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« Reply #18 on: November 18, 2011, 10:41:13 PM »

   I think the problem is that whatever genuine complaints and gripes these folks may have with runaway corporatism have been completely drowned out by the lawless, burn-it-all-down thugs and miscreants that have hijacked the movement.  The widespread filth, obscenity, drug use, poor sanitation, and tolerance for lawbreaking in the camps left civic authorities little choice but to shut them down.  In the end, their protest have hurt the very people they claim to represent and generally irritated more than inspired the American public!

  The Constitution guarantees "the right of the people to peacably assemble;" it does NOT guarantee immunity from consequences when you break the law.  These folks could learn a lesson from the respect for authority and general cleanliness and order of the Tea Party movement.  You might despise the values of the Tea Party, but the fact is when several hundred thousand of them marched on Washington, they left the National Mall cleaner than they found it, and did not tolerate obscenity or slogans that were racist or promoted violence.
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« Reply #19 on: November 19, 2011, 11:00:11 AM »

  I think the problem is that whatever genuine complaints and gripes these folks may have with runaway corporatism have been completely drowned out by the lawless, burn-it-all-down thugs and miscreants that have hijacked the movement.  The widespread filth, obscenity, drug use, poor sanitation, and tolerance for lawbreaking in the camps left civic authorities little choice but to shut them down.  In the end, their protest have hurt the very people they claim to represent and generally irritated more than inspired the American public!

  The Constitution guarantees "the right of the people to peacably assemble;" it does NOT guarantee immunity from consequences when you break the law.  These folks could learn a lesson from the respect for authority and general cleanliness and order of the Tea Party movement.  You might despise the values of the Tea Party, but the fact is when several hundred thousand of them marched on Washington, they left the National Mall cleaner than they found it, and did not tolerate obscenity or slogans that were racist or promoted violence.


Not to mention that they are directing their anger at the government, the entity that has allowed the conditions in which a corporatist environment has risen and thrived. I never thought I would defend the Tea Party movement, because I always thought they were a bit nutty, and still do, but in comparison they almost look the model of rationality and purpose. The poster for Occupy Wall Street would be amusing if the movement weren't so destructive:



Yeah, what IS your one demand? Indeed.
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Flick James
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« Reply #20 on: November 19, 2011, 11:48:59 AM »

Oh, and let's not kid ourselves by trying to paint a picture of them as a bunch of frustrated unemployed people protesting injustice. In a poll of 200 protestors by the polling firm Penn Schoen and Berland, 98% percent would support civil disobedience to achieve their goals, 31% would support violence to advance their agenda, and most are employed.

What's more, according to the Liberty Square Blueprint, which is supposed to be a very loose kind of manifesto of Occupy Wall Street, the agenda is essentially communism. In tone and methodology it resembles the Russian Revolution, except the Russians were more organized and were more honest about their agenda.
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indianasmith
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« Reply #21 on: November 19, 2011, 12:36:40 PM »

Do people forget that the monstrosity called the Soviet Union slaughtered about 60 million of its own citizens in the 70 odd years of its blighted existence?  That it denied all freedoms and civil rights to its citizens?


If these people hate capitalism so much, let them throw away their IPods and Cell Phones and cars and computers and all the other thousand and one conveniences invented in the last 100 years because capitalism finally harnessed and empowered mankind's creative impulses!
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tracy
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« Reply #22 on: November 19, 2011, 12:44:38 PM »

I think that whatever this was intended to be has been left behind. I'm afraid that some are using this as a way to simply act out. I do believe in free speech,don't get me wrong...I firmly believe in it. But Some of these characters are pushing it.
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JaseSF
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« Reply #23 on: November 21, 2011, 02:54:20 PM »

I really don't believe America is a democracy anymore....at least I'm not fully convinced it is.
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« Reply #24 on: November 21, 2011, 03:22:56 PM »

I really don't believe America is a democracy anymore....at least I'm not fully convinced it is.

It never was. It has always been a constitutional republic.
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JaseSF
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« Reply #25 on: November 21, 2011, 07:31:20 PM »

I really don't understand why socialism gets such a bad rap in the U.S. - we've had socialist principles for years and years at work here and some political parties where clearly built on those ideals at work there. The Soviet Union under Stalin clearly wasn't really a socialist system but a dictactorship.

Capitalism works as long as money does come down through the system and is used to create more jobs and boost the economy but when the mafia and corporate greed controls the purse strings, it seems not much does...
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« Reply #26 on: November 21, 2011, 08:07:07 PM »

I really don't understand why socialism gets such a bad rap in the U.S. - we've had socialist principles for years and years at work here and some political parties where clearly built on those ideals at work there. The Soviet Union under Stalin clearly wasn't really a socialist system but a dictactorship.

Capitalism works as long as money does come down through the system and is used to create more jobs and boost the economy but when the mafia and corporate greed controls the purse strings, it seems not much does...

Well, you were lamenting a loss of democracy, yet you appear to favor socialism. I'm confused.

The reason for U.S. attitudes toward socialism is a complex one.

On one hand, these attitudes are based on attitudes that were applied to European socialism of the early part of last century. Socialism has evolved softer forms since that time, but initially, it was very much hand-in-hand with Soviet socialism (and yes, it was a form of socialism) and the German national socialist movement, also known as the Nazi Party. Americans have largely been reluctant to acknowledge the softer forms that have developed since the fall of the Soviet Union.

Another factor in American attitudes comes from the U.S. economic position. The U.S. has been the economic superpower for a good stretch, although sadly that is changing. This economic superpower status did not develop via socialism, but rather through rugged individualist capitalist models. And don't underestimate the sheer weight of the U.S. economic system. It may under the threat of crumbling at the moment. But nobody can really deny that the global financial crisis is almost inextricably linked to the U.S. crisis. What happens to the U.S. financial markets affects EVERYBODY.

Then there's profitability and all of that. Socialism can be very touchy feely with things like free healthcare and free this and free that. And the U.S. simply can't support socialism right now. We don't have the infrastructure to support it. Socialism would absolutely destroy us right now. Lack of infrastructure is a much bigger factor than anybody cares to admit. The reason China has emerged as it has is because of investment in infrastructure. They have it. We don't. We also can't afford to spend on it unless taxes are raised to a level that will absolutely cripple economic growth. The U.S. is in a serious catch-22 right now and we're kinda stuck.

Now, you made an absolutely solid point about capitalism. Capitalism works when it is capitalism. What you're talking about, with corporations controlling the purse strings, that is not capitalism. But you can't blame the corporations. Corporations function, and will only function well, when pursuing profits. They can only do this by exploiting opportunities. If there is a complete separation of business and state, then no such purse strings can be controlled, and businessed operate on a level playing field, and the laws of supply and demand regulate themselves. It drives me a little nuts when people blame capitalism for what corporatism is doing. And if you don't know the difference between the two, I suggest you look it up. Not you personally, Jase, but anybody.
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JaseSF
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« Reply #27 on: November 21, 2011, 10:48:14 PM »

I also wonder why we, my own country included, trade with China in essence helping to keep in power a Communist government regime...sending jobs overseas and reducing levels of pay here in doing so both with raw material and in production.

I'll admit I'm no political expert but I know some parties here embrace socialist "ideals" and we have had social programs for many, many years here I couldn't imagine living without. The U.S. admittedly is a whole 'nother place with a far greater population to deal with but those numbers are out there, a large number of dissatisfied folks and if they do organize and get together, serious change may well be looming around the corner...
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« Reply #28 on: November 22, 2011, 05:46:01 AM »

The "Occupy" movement is unfortunately not a monolithic entity. There are quite a few people of differing ideas out there, I don't think there's any sort of central consensus.

However, the central idea is not to shut down businesses. I really don't think that's ever been one of the protestor's aims. It's protest as theater, to call attention to a runaway system of financial interests that led to the recent financial meltdown.

The sub-prime mortgage meltdown was not caused by any system of government, it was caused by a***oles who decided to game the system to make themselves a s**tload of money, and the devil chase the rest. Once that clusterf**k came home to roost, what was the governments best solution? Give them all of our money, because they're "too big to fail."

I'm all for the vagaries of economic recovery, but what's the solution? To give more money to the irresponsible a***oles who set everybody else to fail in the first place?

Like I said, the "Occupiers" are not one monolithic entity, but I believe the central idea is that we should not continue with that.

That's economics and politics, and we can argue about that until we're blue in the face.

The one thing I will not give in for is the police response to the protestors. No matter what your politics are, the violence and jack-booted thuggery is unacceptable for a society that prides itself on "freedom." Pepper-spraying innocent protestors, tossing flash grenades into a crowd of people trying to help a person injured by police violence? There has been an incredibly violent response against the protestors perpetrated by those who should be our protection.

Small | Large


This happened. I can not believe that this is acceptable for anybody, and it's just one example.
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« Reply #29 on: November 22, 2011, 07:09:28 AM »

The pepper spraying of the students at UC Davis makes me sick.
Whats next?
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