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Author Topic: Is the US Constitution Outdated?  (Read 3316 times)
indianasmith
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« Reply #30 on: February 11, 2012, 06:16:37 PM »

All Israel wants is to be left alone in their ancestral homeland.  That's it.
Iran has repeatedly said it wants Israel "wiped from the map," and is developing nuclear capability for the sole purpose of achieving that end.  The Israelis would have to be suicidally insane to allow that to happen, and frankly,
a nuclear armed Iran is bad news for the whole world,  Even the Saudis realize that, according to last year's Wikileaks diplomatic document dump.  The best thing that could happen for the peace of the whole world would be for the political leadership of Iran to suffer simultaneous cranial detonation.
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Flick James
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« Reply #31 on: February 11, 2012, 06:58:28 PM »

All Israel wants is to be left alone in their ancestral homeland.  That's it.
Iran has repeatedly said it wants Israel "wiped from the map," and is developing nuclear capability for the sole purpose of achieving that end.  The Israelis would have to be suicidally insane to allow that to happen, and frankly,
a nuclear armed Iran is bad news for the whole world,  Even the Saudis realize that, according to last year's Wikileaks diplomatic document dump.  The best thing that could happen for the peace of the whole world would be for the political leadership of Iran to suffer simultaneous cranial detonation.

And Israel isn't already suicidal? I've never understood why the world doesn't realize how suicidal Israel is just for insisting on establishing a state surrounded by the very people that have been their enemies for thousands of years. Is that not at the very least obliquely suicidal? And of course, we all know the reason why. The Isralis have a religious connection to Israel. The Israelis and the Muslims appear to be the only two groups in the world in recent history able to find this level of stubborn, religious, territorial, dogmatic justification for their actions. And we all know why the U.S. is involved. The fundamentalist Christian right componentst of the federal government have convinced us that we must back Israel or suffer the wrath of God.

I'm sorry, but the U.S. was not like this before. We did not get involved in religious confrontations, no matter how much people want to insist that the founders wanted it that way. I'm not going to get into yet another debate with you about tolerating evil in the world, as you seem to see these things in such black and white terms. You and I were in the Navy. We were not on the front lines of battle. There is no black and white in war, Indy. I had the pleasure of seeing Marcus Luttrell of Seal Team 10 and author of Lone Survivor speak once, and he said the same thing. There is no black and white in war. Everything turns gray very quickly.

The U.S. is not engaging in foreign policies that are healthy in any way. We have a serious case of s**t or get off the pot. There are only two options availble to us. One is sinister and one is not. We either need to take that land over altogether and make it ours, or we need to stop intervening altogether. Anything between those two options and we do little more than ask for trouble. And yes, we've been asking for trouble for a long time, starting with all of our shady activities in the middle east during the cold war.

Now, lester may be terse and absolute in his considerations, but I understand what he means when he says that these problems are in a large part because of religious fundamentalism, not to exclude that of the U.S. I don't always agree with lester, and his views are sometimes too libertarian even for me, but I understand what he means. The religious zealots of the world bring us little but dogmatic brutality and hatemongering. And yes, I'm sorry, but all of your rhetoric doesn't distinguish itself in any meaningful way from the garden variety fearmongering we leveled against the Germans and Japanese as people during WWII.
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lester1/2jr
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« Reply #32 on: February 11, 2012, 08:15:33 PM »

like I said...
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indianasmith
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« Reply #33 on: February 12, 2012, 01:25:02 AM »

Flick, you know that I have tremendous personal respect for you, and that I don't take your hostility towards religion personally.  We will always be square on that account.

NOW - as to what you said - call it Judea, call it Palestine, call it Israel.  What it IS is the historic, religious, and cultural center of the Jewish faith and of the Jewish people.  It has been such for over 3000 years.  Through all the long years of their exile, the Jews of the Diaspora celebrated their Passover with the words "Next year, in Jerusalem."  On the other hand, Judea/Palestine/Israel is NOT the Holy Land of Islam.  It is not their birthplace, it is not the center of their faith, of their culture, nor is it the homeland of any particular Arabic nation.  The Dome of the Rock the "Third Holiest Shrine of Islam"?   It wasn't until the Jews took possession of it in 1948.  It was a minor Islamic shrine dedicated to the site of a minor incident in one of the Hadith that wasn't even composed until a century or more after Muhammad's death.  It commemorates a ride on a winged horse that took place in a DREAM Muhammad had. 

But it is built on top of the very epicenter of Judaism.  The site of their temple.

Now, you may say that this all proves what you said to be true.  But do the Jewish people, after all they have endured, not have a right to that one tiny postage stamp of territory where their faith, culture, and national identity are centered?  What would you have them do?  Return to Germany, the land of Dachau, or to Poland, the land of Auschwitz?  That's what Helen Thomas callously suggested.  These people have been shat upon by every land they have resided in since their long exile began (with the exception of the U.S.A.).  After being the target of the most brutal act of genocide in human history, all they wanted was to go HOME.  The place where their identity as a people began.

And that land was offered to be split with the Palestinians.  They refused the deal.  They've been refusing every reasonable compromise ever since.  Every Israeli concession has been met with rocket attacks, truck bombs, and suicide bombings.  The Arabic world is kept whipped into a constant frenzy over the fate of the poor, innocent Palestinians to this day by corrupt leaders who find it easier to direct that rage at Israel than to take the chance that it might be aimed at their own privileged rule.  Yet the Arab world could have absorbed the Palestinians long ago and ended the problem if it wished to.

Who are these people anyway?  The Palestinians never existed as a separate nation before 1948.  There was never a separate, Arabic speaking Palestinian state in the history of the world.  It was just one small corner of the great Ottoman Empire.  There is no "Palestinian" literature, culture, or history that is distinguishable from the broader Arabic world.

And who are the Jews?  I would challenge you to find any group, anywhere, anytime that has contributed more to the civilization of the world than the Jewish people.  Look how many Jews have been honored with the Nobel prize, how many amazing inventions have been due to Jewish ingenuity.  Regardless of your feelings for people of faith, James, I know that you do have a tremendous respect and affection for Western Civilization.  The oldest roots of that civilization lie in Jerusalem, and began with Judaism.

So are you willing to throw the most progressive, gifted, Democratic government in the entire Middle East under the bus in order to appease the most violent, regressive, and evil force that is active in the world right now?  And do you think, for a minute, that if we did cut Israel off, renounce them, vote against them in the UN, and side with the Arabic world in international disputes, that they would hate us any less?  Their hatred is eternally reserved for the entire non-Islamic world, and if they destroy Israel due to our abandoning them, that would simply be taken by the jihadists as a sign of our weakness.  Their efforts against us would redouble.  They are already taking over Europe demographically.  Most of Europe will by majority Islamic by the end of this century, and the light of Western civilization there will be snuffed out.  The jihadists seek nothing less than a new dark age.  Abandoning Israel would hasten rather than delay it.

You may see nothing but shades of grey, but I see good and evil at stake.  Not perfect examples of either - there are some evil and bellicose Israelis, and there are some decent and peaceful Arabs.  But in terms of government, culture, civil society, and religious practice, I think the lines are much more clear than you seem to believe.

You know that I cannot stand Bill Maher at all.  But he nailed it last year on his show when he said: "There is only one religion in the world right now that routinely kills people in the name of its faith - and that is Islam."
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lester1/2jr
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« Reply #34 on: February 12, 2012, 09:29:05 AM »

Quote
It has been such for over 3000 years.


It was majority arab for the 18 centuries preceding zionism though.

Quote
It is not their birthplace


it's not jews birthplace either. They travelled there when Jerusalem was called Salem and king Melchidezek was reigning.  the land of Canaan, the Canaanites etc

Quote
Return to Germany, the land of Dachau, or to Poland, the land of Auschwitz? 


The holocaust is over. there are tons of jews in Germany and Poland.

Quote
The Palestinians never existed as a separate nation before 1948.


 most of the countries in Africa didn't "exist" till they were arbitrarily drawn up by colonialists. 

Quote
I would challenge you to find any group, anywhere, anytime that has contributed more to the civilization of the world than the Jewish people.


and? My old neighbor used to teach at MIT. Does that mean he can have my house if he wants it? You're making a very unconservative argument for emminent domain here.

Quote
Most of Europe will by majority Islamic by the end of this century


Yeah I'm sure RUSSIA will be mostly muslim in 90 years! 

http://www.amazon.com/Jerusalem-1913-Origins-Arab-Israeli-Conflict/dp/0670038369


this is a good book.  It 's about a critical year when jewish migration picked up to the point where tensions between they and the arabs became unavoidable. At it's root, that's all this conflict is. One peoples were there and then another came in great numbers and eventually displaced them. It's pretty easy i think to see how that would create a conflict.

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indianasmith
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« Reply #35 on: February 12, 2012, 10:12:12 AM »

They came there 4,000 years ago during the reign of Melchizedek, true.  But they were not yet a nation.  Israel was the place where Abraham's family began and the NATION of Israel was started by the 12 sons of Jacob.  And, as I said, the so-called Palestinians were nomadic Arabs who lived there after the Jews were forced out - but it wasn't the birthplace of their language, their culture, or their faith.  All those originated on the Arabian peninsula. 

Anti-Semitism is a growing tide in Europe, not just among the Arabic immigrants, who breed hate like rabbits in their mosques, but among the ethnic populations of Europe as well.  Why do you think so many Jews still want to leave Poland, France, and Russia?  Those countries were hotbeds of anti-Semitism at one time, and the old ways are re-asserting themselves.

As for Russia, yes, it probably will become Islamic.  After all, they have the lowest birthrate of any nation in Europe (1.17 children per couple) and are the only nation in the industrialized world where life expectancy has actually declined since the 1990's.  And Islamic immigrants are pouring in there, just  like they are in every other European country. It may take a little longer, since Russia is so huge and has an enormous population, but the trend is in place.  And, since Christianity is effectively dead in much of Europe, there is no opposing ideology to stand up against the rising tide of radical Islam.  Multicultural socialism has created a generation of young Europeans who are detached from their  historical roots and have been offered nothing to believe in.  They are desperate for something to add meaning to their lives, and Islam is making great inroads into the younger population of many European countries.  What was once the realm of Christendom is falling under the crescent more and more every year.

Yes, the conflict began when the Jews returned to their homeland.  But where would you have had them go in 1945?  Would you have forced them to remain  in the lands that either actively tried to exterminate them from the earth, or else stood by and let it happen?  It was time for them to go HOME - and that home, religiously, culturally, and ethnically, was Israel.  The Palestinians have been offered a fair deal again and again, and they have met every Israeli compromise with additional violence and terrorism.  By so doing, they have squandered whatever sympathy I might have had for them at one time.  They need to renounce terrorism permanently and acknowledge Israel's simple right to exist before they receive another dime of U.S. aid, or dare to ask for one more concession from the longsuffering Israeli people.
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"Carpe diem!" - Seize the day!  "Carpe per diem!" - Seize the daily living allowance! "Carpe carp!" - Seize the fish!
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lester1/2jr
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« Reply #36 on: February 12, 2012, 11:06:33 AM »

Quote
And, as I said, the so-called Palestinians were nomadic Arabs who lived there after the Jews were forced

The jews never completely drove the canaanites out and again, the area was mostly arab for nearly 2 millenia before zionism. that's a bit of a precedent.

Quote
And Islamic immigrants are pouring in there, just  like they are in every other European country. It may take a little longer, since Russia is so huge and has an enormous population, but the trend is in place.

  The soution to your issue is for Russians to have more kids, not fort us to occupy the middle east indefinitely. That exacerbates immigration from muslim countries.  . Europe could also adjust their immigration and/ or welfare policies at any time if they so choose. trends don't last forever. The US didn't gradually become buddhist because we allowed chinese people in greater and greater numbers to come here

Quote
And, since Christianity is effectively dead in much of Europe, there is no opposing ideology to stand up against the rising tide of radical Islam.

??? That might have been true in the 11th century but there are plenty of things that can oppose the rising tide of radical islam. China isn't Christian and they aren't going muslim. It's MORE secular than europe.

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What was once the realm of Christendom is falling under the crescent more and more every year

That's jut a crazy statement. Christendom? the cresecent? listen to yourself

Quote
But where would you have had them go in 1945?

I'm not in charge of the world. I can't "have" anyone go anywhere. there's no one world government that hands out land to people and everyone accepts what they dictate.

Quote
Would you have forced them to remain  in the lands that either actively tried to exterminate them from the earth, or else stood by and let it happen?

We should have let them come here.  other nations would have no doubt followed suit.  our moral failing for doing so shouldn't be shouldered by palestinians. Western nations are the ones who perpetuated the holocaust.

Quote
They need to renounce terrorism permanently and acknowledge Israel's simple right to exist

no one has a right to exist. you exist as long as you can defend yourself. it's the law of the jungle.

Did americans have the right to exist when we were taking this country from the indians? of course not. and no one begrudges the Indians for trying to hold on to what had been theirs but they were outnumbered and out armed. if the Indians decide they want to try and take the land back we'll have to fight them again.

The situation is Israel is the reverse . They are 6 million pilgrims surrounded by a billion indians. That's the long and short of it. As you noted, demographics are on the arabs side. You can stop muslims immigrants from coming in to Europe if you want, you can't stop muslims in muslim countries from being populace.

and none of this has anything to do with the Constitution which to my knowledge doesn't include anything about palestinians or israelis.
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