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Author Topic: So what do you think? Double Standard or just more conservative whining? (PT)  (Read 33649 times)
indianasmith
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« Reply #45 on: March 15, 2012, 01:46:33 PM »

Considering that fewer than 5% of all pregnancies are due to rape or incest, if the only way to get rid of abortion would be to allow those procedures, I'd do it.  But you are right - it is punishing the most innocent victim in the whole tragic situation.
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ulthar
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« Reply #46 on: March 15, 2012, 02:38:50 PM »


That's right. 


Wow.  You've convinced me with your intricately woven threads of logic, the depth of your grasp on the larger socioeconomic framework and the keen ability to see beyond your own perspective.

My whole worldview has been shaken....    Lookingup
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« Reply #47 on: March 15, 2012, 02:46:48 PM »

frank- at least you got called something. As a Ron Paul supporter, nothing would make me happier than to be insulted, it would mean I exist at least. The media stinks and is on it's way down. What's amazing to me is as they've gotten less relevent they've actually gotten lamer.

At the same time, I'd much rather watch Diane Sawyer or some other generic newscast than one of the 12 trillion talk shows on MSNBC and FOX. I liked "Freedom Watch" but that's gone and I liked Buchanan on MSNBC and he's gone. 
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Allhallowsday
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« Reply #48 on: March 15, 2012, 02:55:44 PM »


That's right. 


Wow.  You've convinced me with your intricately woven threads of logic, the depth of your grasp on the larger socioeconomic framework and the keen ability to see beyond your own perspective.

My whole worldview has been shaken....    Lookingup
Glad to hear it; I'm also glad you're cured of your longwindedness.   Thumbup Smile
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« Reply #49 on: March 15, 2012, 03:11:49 PM »


Glad to hear it; I'm also glad you're cured of your longwindedness.   Thumbup Smile


I wanted to make it bite-size so it would be easy to follow.... Cheers
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indianasmith
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« Reply #50 on: March 15, 2012, 03:42:30 PM »

frank- at least you got called something. As a Ron Paul supporter, nothing would make me happier than to be insulted, it would mean I exist at least. The media stinks and is on it's way down. What's amazing to me is as they've gotten less relevent they've actually gotten lamer.

At the same time, I'd much rather watch Diane Sawyer or some other generic newscast than one of the 12 trillion talk shows on MSNBC and FOX. I liked "Freedom Watch" but that's gone and I liked Buchanan on MSNBC and he's gone. 

Sean Hannity is the only one who has made a reasonable effort to give Ron Paul equal airtime; but Paul got upset with him over a question he asked and has refused to go back on his radio show.  However, he has had Rand Paul on the radio multiple times as a spokesman for his father's campaign.

Ron Paul is an interesting and courageous politician.  While I cannot support the degree of isolationism that he seems to want, I admire him for having the courage of his convictions.
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« Reply #51 on: March 15, 2012, 04:43:28 PM »

I was talking to the man at the pharmacy about this acctually. We were talking about how here in Australia, Centerlink (a government orgasination, to pay for the un-employed, students, and dissabled) has a health card for anyone on centerlink so they can pay for medication they need at a lower price, (as the centerlink fortnightly payment is $200 - $500 for those on job seeker allowence, not enought for medication and other things) All Priscription medication is a lot cheaper than normal. I was on centerlink for a bit and noticed that all my Prescription medication was cheaper, exsept for birth control.

The point I said to the pharmacist was, if someone who obviously is not in a stabble financial situation to have children and is doing the responsible thing by taking birth control, why does the government not see helping pay for birth control will be a lot less money, compared to helping with food staps and what not for an unplanned child. It seems like the smart thing to do, for the parent(s) child and the government, is avoid this situations. Because a child does not just go away. Or is easy to deal with.

I sorta find it odd that birth control costs that much, but I don't know if she was put on a special type due to other issues she has.

Either way this guy who said she should make sex tapes to pay for birth control, is an idiot. People do not just have sex to make a life, and to him if it is that or the polar opposite off staring in porn, he needs his head checked.
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The Gravekeeper
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« Reply #52 on: March 15, 2012, 06:16:25 PM »

Okay, it looks like I might need to point out some of the reasons why women use birth control, having had first-hand experience with it myself.

1. Preventing unwanted pregnancies, obviously. This does include married women and women who already have children.

2. Decreasing or eliminating PMS symptoms. Not all women experience it, and the ones who do tend to experience it differently. Depending on your symptoms and how severe they are, going on the pill could mean the difference between being able to go on with your normal routine or having to pretty much isolate yourself.

3. Keeping your hormones more or less level throughout the month. This can help with depression and mood swings.

4. Preventing and lessening menstrual cramps. Not all women get them, but they can range from "mildly uncomfortable" to "excruciating pain that makes going out for any reason impossible without taking powerful pain killers first"

5. It can help clear your skin. This can be a godsend for teenage girls in particular since acne at that age can be humiliating.

6. Making periods lighter. Homemade solutions don't work if your flow is heavy, and "feminine care products" can be very expensive and they are not negotiable.

7. It can help you regulate your menstrual cycle. Having it start when you're not quite expecting it to is its own special kind of suck.

8. Depending on what brand/type you're taking, you can have fewer periods. The reasons why this might be attractive to some women should be obvious.

9. Relief from Polycystic Ovarian Syndrome (PCOS). More info on that here: http://www.womenshealth.gov/publications/our-publications/fact-sheet/polycystic-ovary-syndrome.cfm

Actually, I didn't even think about this side of the story at first. I don't know why, either; normally I'm fairly aware of this sort of thing.

http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/factsheet/Risk/oral-contraceptives

Also, http://healthland.time.com/2011/12/08/should-nuns-take-the-pill-to-prevent-cancer/


Why, do  Nuns  have a  higher  incidence of cancer and why  Nuns, used  in that article and not say, oh, Muslim or women of other  faiths. Sounds  like another  thinly  vieled  attack on Christians and  Catholics.


Actually...yeah, there is reason to believe that they may be at higher risk of ovarian and cervical cancer because they're required to be celibate for life. A cursory search of the net suggests that Catholicism is one of (if not the only) religion that requires all members of its clergy to be celibate. I didn't get any sort of anti-Christianity vibes from that article; if the findings are true, nuns' lifestyle puts them at a higher risk and this could be a way to lower the risk.
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indianasmith
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« Reply #53 on: March 15, 2012, 08:59:08 PM »

Don't get me wrong, BTW - while I am and remain adamantly opposed to abortion, I have no problem with contraception at all - my wife and I practiced it for years.  And, if insurance companies want to pay for it, that's their business.  My only problem is when the government tries to force religious institutions to pay for services that violate their fundamental doctrines.

As far as priestly celibacy goes, it is one of many Catholic traditions that has no support in Scripture whatsoever.  Simon Peter was, in fact, married, and Paul wrote to both Timothy and Titus that the pastor of a church should be "the husband of one wife and a good manager of his family."  Kind of far off from the original purpose of this post, but since it came up . . .
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Frank81
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« Reply #54 on: March 15, 2012, 09:30:04 PM »

I was talking to the man at the pharmacy about this acctually. We were talking about how here in Australia, Centerlink (a government orgasination, to pay for the un-employed, students, and dissabled) has a health card for anyone on centerlink so they can pay for medication they need at a lower price, (as the centerlink fortnightly payment is $200 - $500 for those on job seeker allowence, not enought for medication and other things) All Priscription medication is a lot cheaper than normal. I was on centerlink for a bit and noticed that all my Prescription medication was cheaper, exsept for birth control.

The point I said to the pharmacist was, if someone who obviously is not in a stabble financial situation to have children and is doing the responsible thing by taking birth control, why does the government not see helping pay for birth control will be a lot less money, compared to helping with food staps and what not for an unplanned child. It seems like the smart thing to do, for the parent(s) child and the government, is avoid this situations. Because a child does not just go away. Or is easy to deal with.

I sorta find it odd that birth control costs that much, but I don't know if she was put on a special type due to other issues she has.

Either way this guy who said she should make sex tapes to pay for birth control, is an idiot. People do not just have sex to make a life, and to him if it is that or the polar opposite off staring in porn, he needs his head checked.

Living Dead Girl, BTW, You get that  from the Rob Zombie song? Anyway, I agree, birth  control is  cheaper than the costs  of a baby, but, isn't self control and not govt control the cheapest  of all?  I mean if one wants  Govt to stay out of her uterus as  I saw a  T-Shirt once, then , what the hell is the Govt., Senate, let alone a  guy a radio,  commenting on it and why does this independent  person  need all these people if they truly want Govt. off their bodies? I'm no defender of Limbaugh or anyone else, but, the point he was making, albeit a bit crudely, if you want cash for your sexual activities, why not just make tapes of it and sell it? I want Govt. to do the least it can for me, just watch the borders, pay the cops, pave the roads, bomb the enemy, and stay the F#@k out of my life.
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Frank81
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« Reply #55 on: March 15, 2012, 09:43:41 PM »

I think to this woman, birth control pills are something she gets from her doctor so why isn't it covered like anything else? It's a normal medical thing. It's subjective to some people but so are alot of things. My anti-depressants are covered by insurance, i suppose someone could raise a stink about that if they really wanted.

I happen  to be a  Republican who thinks  abortion  and the pill should not only be available, but, encouraged  for some people.  TeddyR 

     As I understand, Frank, you support abortion in cases of rape or incest. The thing is, isn't that levying the heaviest punishment upon the most innocent?

     I'm not bustin' your chops, Cap'n....but think about it.

 But, The  issue  here  is one  about double-standrad in speech  regarding  issues of the day. It's  like when I was passing the Occupy  Wall Street people  every day  at lunch from work, extremely  vile signs and rhetoric  that I saw  and heard at Zuccotti  Park, not to mention that  these  mostly  'white' kids  from wealthy  families  from Long Island and out of state  know  zip  of the reality  of growing up  poor and and immigrant. I grew up  as both and find it highly offensive and of the one standard the majority of media  has in regards  to most issues and it  can be classified as  Left and further  Left. You only saw the positive on Occupy, while the  'Tea Party' folks, a rally  I had attended, were presented as 'white, racists' at best.

I have to admit, Alan, social issues are secondary  to my conservative  side, I'm more of bomb the Commies, Fascists and Islamicists and pay cops more to club the bad guys on the head. TeddyR But, If I have to comment on social issues, I think  Govt. should intervene as little as  possible, including paying for me.  They do have a role in oversight, so, we don't get gouged by insurance and 'Madoff' traders. In any event, my take on the specific issue, and I agree it is 'life', is better to allow an option to end it before it reaches outside the womb, in some cases, cause this is one damn, barbaric planet.  The  human race is inherently evil and  all of it's civilisations, no matter how great, are  based on killing, genocide and death. Indiviuals have shined and kept it chugging along, but, the long and short of it is as abhorent as  Abortion is, remaining legal is preferable than having innocent life, independent of the womb, suffering and creating more misery. 
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Allhallowsday
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« Reply #56 on: March 15, 2012, 09:56:26 PM »

I think to this woman, birth control pills are something she gets from her doctor so why isn't it covered like anything else? It's a normal medical thing. It's subjective to some people but so are alot of things. My anti-depressants are covered by insurance, i suppose someone could raise a stink about that if they really wanted.


I happen  to be a  Republican who thinks  abortion  and the pill should not only be available, but, encouraged  for some people.  TeddyR 

     As I understand, Frank, you support abortion in cases of rape or incest. The thing is, isn't that levying the heaviest punishment upon the most innocent?

     I'm not bustin' your chops, Cap'n....but think about it.

 But, The  issue  here  is one  about double-standrad in speech  regarding  issues of the day. It's  like when I was passing the Occupy  Wall Street people  every day  at lunch from work, extremely  vile signs and rhetoric  that I saw  and heard at Zuccotti  Park, not to mention that  these  mostly  'white' kids  from wealthy  families  from Long Island and out of state  know  zip  of the reality  of growing up  poor and and immigrant. I grew up  as both and find it highly offensive and of the one standard the majority of media  has in regards  to most issues and it  can be classified as  Left and further  Left. You only saw the positive on Occupy, while the  'Tea Party' folks, a rally  I had attended, were presented as 'white, racists' at best.

I have to admit, Alan, social issues are secondary  to my conservative  side, I'm more of bomb the Commies, Fascists and Islamicists and pay cops more to club the bad guys on the head. TeddyR But, If I have to comment on social issues, I think  Govt. should intervene as little as  possible, including paying for me.  They do have a role in oversight, so, we don't get gouged by insurance and 'Madoff' traders. In any event, my take on the specific issue, and I agree it is 'life', is better to allow an option to end it before it reaches outside the womb, in some cases, cause this is one damn, barbaric planet.  The  human race is inherently evil and  all of it's civilisations, no matter how great, are  based on killing, genocide and death. Indiviuals have shined and kept it chugging along, but, the long and short of it is as abhorent as  Abortion is, remaining legal is preferable than having innocent life, independent of the womb, suffering and creating more misery. 
The problem is, who are the "bad guys"?  Perhaps you'd be surprised at the concept of Fascism here in America.  And I couldn't be any whiter.  In fact, I'm so white, I don't tan.  If I have too much sun, I burn, peel, and remain white except maybe a bit more freckled.  Gross.  I've been persecuted my whole life for my white skin.  My "fair" skin. 
Small | Large
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ulthar
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« Reply #57 on: March 15, 2012, 09:57:02 PM »


No problem, my friend, I value your opinion.


And I yours, rest assured.

Quote

However, the reason we are not having the discussion you brought up can be pretty fairly aimed at Rush Limbaugh.


Well, maybe, maybe not.  Rush said what he said, an uproar occurred and he apologized.  Still, the conversation in the media is what Rush said.

Indy's question about media bias...the double standard...is a fair one.  Where was this same outcry - THAT WOULD NOT STOP - against Maher for calling Palin the c-word?

Quote

However, the reason I chimed in on the topic is that I find Limbaugh's method of approaching it awful. I see no reason that misogyny should be acceptable in public discourse, and make no mistake, Limbaugh's words were misogynistic. The reason that people are angry about his words is not they are looking to distract from the issue of birth-control, it's that he resorted to woman-bashing at a particularly vicious level. (He was also not the only commentator to do so, just the most virulent.)


Well, I don't know.  I see your points, and am perfectly comfortable with the position you take on what he said.

But I must say that I don't buy for a New York Minute that that is the reason there is such a media outcry.  From my perspective, it's partisan politics and the conversation is fueled by the media.

The point is that others, left leaners, have said stuff over the years equally misogynistic, equally racist, equally offensive to anything Rush has ever said.  The problem is "the pass" they get.

THIS is the issue - at least the one Indy raised.

Quote

It's this second issue I find fascinating. Limbaugh has always been a loudmouth a***ole, that's his job and the reason he's been popular for so many years.


Well, minor quibble, but I think the reason he's been popular for so many years is because there are many people, many, many people, who are sick and tired of "their side" not being represented in the media or the so-called national discourse.

People who listen to his show do so in part because he's saying a lot of things...not everything...but a lot of things that they are saying but they feel "alone" because the newsies act like no one on the entire planet thinks like that.  People that believe the government should be smaller and spending less money, people that believe that folks should not be promiscuous (for a variety of reasons), people that want to just live their lives without all the nannyism that is occuring found their voice being heard when Rush became popular and nationally syndicated.

Give his show a listen, not to hear HIM, but to hear what his callers have to say.  There's roughly half of this nation that is sick and tired of the leftist media and Washington Politics, and Rush's show was the first one that gave them an outlet on the national airwaves....the "popular media' to this day deny they exist.

Quote

 Now he's stepped into a pile of s**t with his rhetoric, which made a lot of people angry. Now advertisers are abandoning him in droves, which will hit him and his radio show in the only way people really care about, in the pocketbook.


He's stepped in it before and he'll step in it again.

Quote

 but this probably won't be the thing that kills him. That's capitalism for you.



Yes, and you've got to ask WHY he has such a market.  Partly it's because he stirs the pot...no argument there.  But also, to a lot of people...they just want to know that someone else out there agrees with them.  Before Rush, they did not get that - at all.

Now there's Fox, Hannity and a few others, but Rush was the pioneer.  People did not listen to him in the early days because he was a shock-jockey.  Actually, truth-be-told, he's rather tame most of the time.  

Quote

What I would like to see from this debacle is the removal of hateful rhetoric about political matters from the national discourse. I may disagree with your point of view, but at least you approach it at an intelligent level. That's more than I can say for the sewage-level manner Limbaugh approaches things from. Get rid of it, it helps nobody.


Okay, fair enough, but it cuts both ways.

Indy started this thread with specific examples of the exact same kind of hateful discourse coming from the left, and there has been no outcry against that.

THIS is the frustration "we" feel.

Well, it's also why I've pretty much turned it all off...I don't watch news, I don't listen to talk radio much at all (once a month at the very most) and I have no interest in participating in being an audience for it.  The general media is every bit as rabid and offensive as Rush is purported to be.

They are offensive to all of us that happen to disagree with them and how they report the news.

If you deny that, you are not being honest and seeing things from the perspective of others.  (sigh, again, to avoid misunderstandings, that's the rhetorical you).
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Frank81
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« Reply #58 on: March 15, 2012, 10:18:55 PM »

I think to this woman, birth control pills are something she gets from her doctor so why isn't it covered like anything else? It's a normal medical thing. It's subjective to some people but so are alot of things. My anti-depressants are covered by insurance, i suppose someone could raise a stink about that if they really wanted.


I happen  to be a  Republican who thinks  abortion  and the pill should not only be available, but, encouraged  for some people.  TeddyR 

     As I understand, Frank, you support abortion in cases of rape or incest. The thing is, isn't that levying the heaviest punishment upon the most innocent?

     I'm not bustin' your chops, Cap'n....but think about it.

 But, The  issue  here  is one  about double-standrad in speech  regarding  issues of the day. It's  like when I was passing the Occupy  Wall Street people  every day  at lunch from work, extremely  vile signs and rhetoric  that I saw  and heard at Zuccotti  Park, not to mention that  these  mostly  'white' kids  from wealthy  families  from Long Island and out of state  know  zip  of the reality  of growing up  poor and and immigrant. I grew up  as both and find it highly offensive and of the one standard the majority of media  has in regards  to most issues and it  can be classified as  Left and further  Left. You only saw the positive on Occupy, while the  'Tea Party' folks, a rally  I had attended, were presented as 'white, racists' at best.

I have to admit, Alan, social issues are secondary  to my conservative  side, I'm more of bomb the Commies, Fascists and Islamicists and pay cops more to club the bad guys on the head. TeddyR But, If I have to comment on social issues, I think  Govt. should intervene as little as  possible, including paying for me.  They do have a role in oversight, so, we don't get gouged by insurance and 'Madoff' traders. In any event, my take on the specific issue, and I agree it is 'life', is better to allow an option to end it before it reaches outside the womb, in some cases, cause this is one damn, barbaric planet.  The  human race is inherently evil and  all of it's civilisations, no matter how great, are  based on killing, genocide and death. Indiviuals have shined and kept it chugging along, but, the long and short of it is as abhorent as  Abortion is, remaining legal is preferable than having innocent life, independent of the womb, suffering and creating more misery. 
The problem is, who are the "bad guys"?  Perhaps you'd be surprised at the concept of Fascism here in America.  And I couldn't be any whiter.  In fact, I'm so white, I don't tan.  If I have too much sun, I burn, peel, and remain white except maybe a bit more freckled.  Gross.  I've been persecuted my whole life for my white skin.  My "fair" skin. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdAj-dBNCi4&ob=av2n


Fascism is not skin deep and takes  many forms, but, it comes  full circle and meets up with other totalitarianism, like Communism and Religious Fanaticism, like practiced in Iran or  those twelve, inbred creatures  who call themselves 'Christians' from that 'church' 'Westboro that show up at funerals and applaud dead soldiers cause they may be 'Gay.' It's a never ending battle both outward and yes, inside all of us.



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« Reply #59 on: March 15, 2012, 10:40:50 PM »

This site leans decidedly to the right.

If Rush lost a bunch of sponsors that's too bad for him. He can't complain about that. My main problem those of his ilk is that he will tell an outright lie, and if anybody calls him on it he will say that it was parody. But at the time he says it, he seems like he's presenting the truth, and of course his cultists accept it as truth. He's not the only one to do this. There are lobs who do it too, but line are more likely to actually present it as parody in the first place. That's my perception of course, but back when I used to listen to him I would hear him do it. As soon as somebody exposed something he said the day before as inaccurate, he would hide behind parody.
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