Public domain bad movies - avoiding copyright disputes

[midmast]

My brother and I are sick and tired of watching infomercials late at night, and have decided to do something about it.  We have decided to host bad movies late at night on our local public access station.
 Every movie we show has to be in the public domain, the station administrator referred me to archive.org , which has been a valuable resource, and is very meticulous about copyright information.  We have found loads of sci-fi, horror, and westerns that we have been able to confirm the copyright status of.  Unfortunately we are having a much more difficult time with kung-fu, and lucha films, due to the added complications of international copyright. 
  Since this site is full of bad movie lovers, I was hoping that someone may be able to recommend a resource for  these kind of films, that are not under valid copyright.  Any advice is helpful, a site with several available would be ideal.  I would also love any specific recommendations, because it saves me time screening movies I have never heard of, as long as the films are public domain, or free to show with proper accreditation.
   I am especially interested in Lucha films, I only discovered them a week or two ago while doing research for our show, so I don't know much about them, and have far less exposure than I do in other genres of bad film.  I didn't know anything that awesome existed, and fell in love instantly.  Thank you badmovies.org for introducing me to them.
   Thanks in advance for any info anyone can provide.

[Andrew]

Determining the copyright status of a particular film can be exceptionally hard.  It's one of the reasons that there are lawyers who solely work in copyright. 

The first suggestion that comes to mind is www.archive.org, since the films on there should be public domain.  Warning:  I know that sometimes one accidentally gets posted that isn't, and it subsequently removed.  Also, the copyright status of some of the non-movie videos hosted can also be more complex than just "public domain."

[Rev. Powell]

midmast, Andrew is correct. To explain a bit further: many of the kung fu and lucha libre films you are looking for were copyrighted in Mexico or Hong Kong but became public domain in the U.S. only because they didn't apply for a copyright here separately. In 1994, the US signed an international treaty (URAA) that, in essence, allowed foreign rights holders to restore their copyrights in the U.S. if they only reason they were public domain here was that they failed to apply here separately. Therefore many foreign movies that had previously been in the public domain in the US fell out when their owners restored the copyright (two prominent examples are the Shaw Brothers movies and the Italian HERCULES with Steve Reeves).

Technically most of those films are now copyrighted in the USA; however, the copyright is basically unenforcable unless they register it. The problem with a foreign film like that is it could be "public domain" today but fall out tomorrow if the owner applies for a restoration.

Archive.org does the homework for you for free. I know of no other trustworthy site when it comes to public domain films. Many other sites I've seen out there consistently list copyrighted movies as public domain.

Probably not what you wanted to hear but I'm afraid that's the way it is.

[Nakuyabi]

Actually, www.archive.org is pretty good, but it may not be quite the only site that does public domain. Here's Public Domain Torrents, which has just under a thousand films, and a "martial arts" category that probably has some of what you're seeking in it.

Of course, a lot of these movies probably are already listed on www.archive.org, but it's worth checking.

[Rev. Powell]

Actually, www.archive.org is pretty good, but it may not be quite the only site that does public domain. Here's Public Domain Torrents, which has just under a thousand films, and a "martial arts" category that probably has some of what you're seeking in it.

Of course, a lot of these movies probably are already listed on www.archive.org, but it's worth checking.

That site looks good, I don't see anything that's obviously copyrighted there, but how do you know all those films are truly in the public domain? There's not much transperancy, your just taking the anonymous site owner's word for it. The advantage of archive.org is that they have a huge self-policing user base, active forums discussing copyright status, and a track history of removing films when copyrights are discovered.

The other issue is as I stated: a kung fu or lucha libre film is likely constructively copyrighted under the URAA. They may even have registered the copyright just recently with the Library of Congress. Does that mean someone will sue you for airing it on TV? Probably not, but it depends on the level of risk the station owners are willing to assume.

Honestly, the risk of showing something that looks like its public domain on a public access TV show is extremely low, but whoever sets the policy gets to decide how much diligence they require.

The only way to be truly sure is to hire a lawyer. Archive.org is the next best option. Another site is third best option.

[Nakuyabi]

That site looks good, I don't see anything that's obviously copyrighted there, but how do you know all those films are truly in the public domain? There's not much transparency; you're just taking the anonymous site owner's word for it. The advantage of archive.org is that they have a huge self-policing user base, active forums discussing copyright status, and a track history of removing films when copyrights are discovered.

Well, of course, if those films stop being in the public domain, their copyright owners will presumably be sending out "cease and desist" letters to sites like that. Sites such as Public Domain Torrents that present themselves as legitimate are also more obvious targets for such copyright notices and take-downs because they're easier to find and prosecute than fly-by-nighter pirate sites, and when contacted they'll generally either have to live up to their claims or get sued blind and/or heavily fined.

The guy who owns this particular site isn't that anonymous, especially considering that he's offering stuff for sale too and has e-mail and PayPal accounts posted on there that, especially with a court order, can be tracked back to their owner(s) easily enough. Selling stuff based on other people's copyrighted material also tends to put you at the head of the government and copyright owner's list of people to prosecute. In short, the guy's got some incentive to get his listings right just as archive.org has, though obviously he doesn't have so many resources at his disposal.

As an added layer of legal protection, if you're really worried that our government is going to send goons to your house to ransack the place and seize all your stuff (an increasingly legitimate fear, I'll concede), you could also try checking films from other sites such as this one against archive.org by searching for it in the forums, uploading a copy of it there if you don't find any mention of it, and then seeing if it gets taken down. If archive.org is really so efficient at keeping up with copyrights, you'll know one way or the other soon enough.

[Rev. Powell]

That site looks good, I don't see anything that's obviously copyrighted there, but how do you know all those films are truly in the public domain? There's not much transparency; you're just taking the anonymous site owner's word for it. The advantage of archive.org is that they have a huge self-policing user base, active forums discussing copyright status, and a track history of removing films when copyrights are discovered.

Well, of course, if those films stop being in the public domain, their copyright owners will presumably be sending out "cease and desist" letters to sites like that. Sites such as Public Domain Torrents that present themselves as legitimate are also more obvious targets for such copyright notices and take-downs because they're easier to find and prosecute than fly-by-nighter pirate sites, and when contacted they'll generally either have to live up to their claims or get sued blind and/or heavily fined.

The guy who owns this particular site isn't that anonymous, especially considering that he's offering stuff for sale too and has e-mail and PayPal accounts posted on there that, especially with a court order, can be tracked back to their owner(s) easily enough. Selling stuff based on other people's copyrighted material also tends to put you at the head of the government and copyright owner's list of people to prosecute. In short, the guy's got some incentive to get his listings right just as archive.org has, though obviously he doesn't have so many resources at his disposal.

As an added layer of legal protection, if you're really worried that our government is going to send goons to your house to ransack the place and seize all your stuff (an increasingly legitimate fear, I'll concede), you could also try checking films from other sites such as this one against archive.org by searching for it in the forums, uploading a copy of it there if you don't find any mention of it, and then seeing if it gets taken down. If archive.org is really so efficient at keeping up with copyrights, you'll know one way or the other soon enough.

Most of what you say is accurate. It's all a question of the policy the station wants to enforce. If you want to be 100% sure something's in the public domain hire a lawyer. If you're comfortable at 99% go to archive.org. Use another site and your certainty drops by some percentage; maybe only to 98% but still by some percentage.

My understanding of the URAA is that any foreign film that became public domain solely because they did not register it in the US is now protected by copyright if it was registered in its country of origin.  The copyrights may be "abandoned" in that no one will come looking for you if you exhibit or even sell them, but that's not legally the same as being in the public domain. Again, its totally dependent on how careful you want to be. KUNG FU ARTS (to take a random example) is probably not in the public domain, but there's probably not much liability risk involved in exhibiting it on public access TV or offering it on a free torrent.

Using KUNG FU ARTS as an example again, the questions "is it legal to exhibit this film or offer it for download" and "do I face any significant legal liability if I exhibit or offer this film for download" are two very different questions.  The answer to both is probably "no," though this is my off-the-cuff personal opinion and NOT legal advice anyone can rely on.

[midmast]

Thanks for the advice.  It's the URAA stuff that can be confusing.  I have read a bit more on the subject and find myself wishing there was a more authoritative resource on foreign copyright, that can be understood by regular people, not just lawyers.
My brother and I have decided on our own standards and practices, based on our understanding, and by talking with our local public access administrator.  We are not lawyers, and retaining one would exponentially increase the budget of our show, so we will play it as safe as we can, and minimize our foreign films.  Thanks for specifically mentioning the Steve Reeves Hercules movies, we were planning on showing a couple of those eventually, but hadn't looked into their copyright status yet.  You saved us some work, and there is lots of it to do, so every bit helps.

Thanks again for your advice, we greatly appreciate it!

-Joseph McDevitt

[Rev. Powell]

Thanks for the advice.  It's the URAA stuff that can be confusing.  I have read a bit more on the subject and find myself wishing there was a more authoritative resource on foreign copyright, that can be understood by regular people, not just lawyers.
My brother and I have decided on our own standards and practices, based on our understanding, and by talking with our local public access administrator.  We are not lawyers, and retaining one would exponentially increase the budget of our show, so we will play it as safe as we can, and minimize our foreign films.  Thanks for specifically mentioning the Steve Reeves Hercules movies, we were planning on showing a couple of those eventually, but hadn't looked into their copyright status yet.  You saved us some work, and there is lots of it to do, so every bit helps.

Thanks again for your advice, we greatly appreciate it!

-Joseph McDevitt

This may help: http://chart.copyrightdata.com/c08A.html.

Basically what happens is:

1. All foreign copyrights are automatically restored if they were registered in their home country, but
2. Unless the copyright owner applies for registration with the LoC they can't enforce their copyright. Many of the copyright holders don't care anymore or are long dead.

The owners of the original HERCULES restored their copyright, however, many of the sequels were made by different companies. Several of the sequels (HERC AND THE HAUNTED WORLD, etc.) are still available at the archive, suggesting that those owners never restored the copyrights.

I predict that as a practical matter you will have little problem with any movie you decide to show.

[molokai cargo]

I applaud your effort, to me most of the movies discussed here should be in the public domain.

[Rev. Powell]

I applaud your effort, to me most of the movies discussed here should be in the public domain.

Sure, the public believes everything should be in the public domain. 

[molokai cargo]

I applaud your effort, to me most of the movies discussed here should be in the public domain.

Sure, the public believes everything should be in the public domain. 

Tru Dat

[midmast]

I agree that we probably won't have any problems, we are intentionally choosing old bad movies.  We just want to be sure that we are not going to get into trouble.  The truth of the matter is that nobody will probably notice anyhow, we could probably show all kinds of copyrighted movies and get away with it when our limited audience is taken into account, but we respect the creative process and understand that sales are where these people make their living.  When we can afford to hire a legal department, we will also be able to afford to pay royalties in order to show anything our black little hearts desire.  Here's to optimism.  

I referred my inquiries to this site due to it's obvious respect of copyright law, and I thank you for your advice.

-Joseph McDevitt