V-E DAY

[indianasmith]

69 years ago today, what was left of Nazi Germany surrendered unconditionally to the Allies.
Thanks to the Greatest Generation for saving the world.

[Umaril Has Returned]

69 years ago today, what was left of Nazi Germany surrendered unconditionally to the Allies.
Thanks to the Greatest Generation for saving the world.

And then we had the subsequent spread of Communism after capitulation to Uncle Joe at the Yalta conference.  And for that, we got the Berlin wall, the Warsaw Pact, the Cuban Missile Crisis (and WW3 nearly starting as a result) as well as a Third World ripe with Soviet weaponry, cheaply armed in return for the establishment of Communist beachheads in the countries in question.  One door shuts another opens, so I guess we still have 6 in one hand and half a dozen in the other. It never changes, it just changes hands..

[VenomX73]

Thank you.



My Grandfather was a WW2 veteran. US Army.

[Umaril Has Returned]

Thank you.



My Grandfather was a WW2 veteran. US Army.

My statement about Communism was not in disrespect to the American soldiers who gave their lives of WW2. I apologize if it appeared that way.  I was just stating that the end of one system opened the door for another that did, and still does, threaten the world today.

Indeed, my grandfathers on both sides served, and my grandmother (mother's side) had a cousin who was a POW of the Germans.  We should be happy that things worked out how they did, but also remember that the threats of today are much worse.   

[VenomX73]

Its cool, but I was quoting indianasmith's post though. I didn't see your's till after I posted

[Flangepart]

I agree with Umaril. As great as my dad's generation performed, mankind always finds a way to screw up a chance to improve...(sigh)...

My dad was a Navy aviation mechanic (Prop Specilist) in the war, up in Attu and Sitka Alaska.

[indianasmith]

In fairness to FDR and his administration, what were we going to do? Leave off fighting the Germans and turn on our allies, the Soviets, who had already lost 20 million killed in the war?  Stalin was a brutal thug, but his armies outnumbered ours and were on the ground already in Eastern Europe.  There wasn't much we could do except bow to the fait accompli at that point.  I think FDR was very naïve concerning Stalin, but he died before he realized just how wrong he actually was about the man.

[Umaril Has Returned]

In fairness to FDR and his administration, what were we going to do? Leave off fighting the Germans and turn on our allies, the Soviets, who had already lost 20 million killed in the war?  Stalin was a brutal thug, but his armies outnumbered ours and were on the ground already in Eastern Europe.  There wasn't much we could do except bow to the fait accompli at that point.  I think FDR was very naïve concerning Stalin, but he died before he realized just how wrong he actually was about the man.

As usual, Indy, what you say is historically true.  But, with all due respect, there was a lot we could have done to repel the Soviets in post WW2 Germany if not WW2 Germany.  Let me engage in some speculation based on some fact.

1: Patton's idea of a U.S. and Allied coalition bolstered by rehabilitated German and Axis forces could have worked.  It was revolutionary.

We had the infantry numbers, logistics, and the German prototype technology. We could have perfected the prototype German tech with the help of their captured scientists and mass produced that tech and deployed it among specially trained units as well as former Axis personnel already familiar with the original weapons and aircraft.


2: A sustained strike on Russian logistics already weakened by Germany:

A military is nothing without it's logistical support. Millions of Russians without vehicles and supply trains and fuel depots won't get far if the perfected-mass produced German prototype weapons carried out deep strikes on Russian logistical positions.  This would have isolated Soviet units already in Germany and effectively cut them off from rescue and left any force marching on Germany totally isolated. Call in the U.S. Air Force, sit back, and watch Boris run for his life...

3: Assuming we win,  we re-join Germany as a whole country under Allied NATO membership and pardon all Axis and non-Nazi German military personnel and reintegrate them into their respective societies.   A whole Germany would be a perfect buffer against future incursions.

4: Militarize all Eastern European NATO countries bordered with Russia, bolster them with U.S. bases and jack the hell out of their defenses.  De-militarize all borders these countries share with Russia.

5: Extend the JDF to allow US-Japanese military bases not only in Japan, but the Kuril Islands to ensure no back-door actions by Russia OR a possible Communist Chinese move.
Leave the sea of Japan as Allied-Japanese property and maintain a regular patrol of the South China sea to monitor China, Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia.

Of course, keeping our Allies would be easier than getting them, but that's where we would need to respect them and their individuality all the while working for the US and a better world.  It would all start with that.

[indianasmith]

I see your point - but stabbing an ally in the back and joining with the Germans immediately after defeating them is just odious. It would have invalidated the whole point of the war, to save Europe from the Nazis.   How can we maintain the idea that we are the "good guys" if we treat the people who sacrificed 20 million lives to crush Hitler like that?  I understand Stalin was a bad dude, and Soviet Russia became almost as bad as Nazi Germany.  I just don't think that justifies the course of action Patton recommended.

[RCMerchant]

For once I agree with Indy-Stalin WAS a scumbag-he was buddies at one time with Hitler-!
But Hitler and the Nazis???? The WORST idiots ever-evil beyond belief-the Nazi party was based on pure EVIL.
I cant stress the word EVIl enough to describe their beliefs,what  they did to people-how self centered they were-f**k em.
I HATE NAZIS. 

[RCMerchant]

I saw a show on PBS a while back-about how even now-some of the German folks think that the foot soldiers didnt know what they were getting into-like they were innocent shmucks.
BULLs**t.
Hitler spouted his racist rhetoric crap all the time-he wrote in Mein Kampf exactly what he meant to do-and all good Germans had the book.
The soldiers werent dumb little kids-they knew. It was slaughter-I een pics of foot soldiers-not SS troops-smiling as they look at dogs eating the feet of hanging Jews.

Of course I've seen pics of American soldiers hanging out  playing fun with dead Viet Cong-but thats another story.

[Javakoala]

One of the things I love about my job is getting to talk to Veterans from many conflicts. I have more fun with the ones from the Vietnam era because I'm way more functional with the culture of the 50s and 60s and 70s, but there is something both charming and sad about talking to WWII Vets. So many of them are just happy to talk to another human that they will tell you jokes and stories, and I love them. But some of them are also so utterly haunted by what happened during the war that it breaks your heart. To think of someone still troubled by events that took place over 60 years ago...they are far stronger than I know I am.

Say hello to an older Veteran and spend a minute of your time to talk to them. Most of them will treat you like their best buddy, just because of your kindness.

[indianasmith]

I have talked to a lot of World War II vets, and even had a chance, back in the 1990's, to interview some surviving vets of World War I.  They are all gone now, and the WWII vets will follow them.

Thanks for the props, Ronnie!  Hitler had a remarkable gift for telling people what they wanted to hear.  That was what made him so popular when he had no education, no achievements to speak of, and no social standing.  His rhetoric inflamed the people, and told them someone else was to blame for their woes.
A lot of people who followed him came to regret it, and as strongly as I condemn his regime, I salute the courage of Stauffenberg, Canaris, and the others who tried to take him out on several occasions and nearly succeeded in July 1944.

I will say this much - while virtually every family in Germany owned a copy of Mein Kampf, very few people read it all the way through.  It is one of the most unreadable best-sellers of all time. Hitler could NOT write worth a flip!!!

[Javakoala]

I have talked to a lot of World War II vets, and even had a chance, back in the 1990's, to interview some surviving vets of World War I.  They are all gone now, and the WWII vets will follow them.

Thanks for the props, Ronnie!  Hitler had a remarkable gift for telling people what they wanted to hear.  That was what made him so popular when he had no education, no achievements to speak of, and no social standing.  His rhetoric inflamed the people, and told them someone else was to blame for their woes.
A lot of people who followed him came to regret it, and as strongly as I condemn his regime, I salute the courage of Stauffenberg, Canaris, and the others who tried to take him out on several occasions and nearly succeeded in July 1944.

I will say this much - while virtually every family in Germany owned a copy of Mein Kampf, very few people read it all the way through.  It is one of the most unreadable best-sellers of all time. Hitler could NOT write worth a flip!!!

Too bad he didn't stick with painting. He was pretty good at that.

[Umaril Has Returned]

I see your point - but stabbing an ally in the back and joining with the Germans immediately after defeating them is just odious. It would have invalidated the whole point of the war, to save Europe from the Nazis.   How can we maintain the idea that we are the "good guys" if we treat the people who sacrificed 20 million lives to crush Hitler like that?  I understand Stalin was a bad dude, and Soviet Russia became almost as bad as Nazi Germany.  I just don't think that justifies the course of action Patton recommended.

Well, these same "20 million guys" belonged to the system that almost srated WW3 in October of 1962.   I'm simply suggesting that Communism's eradication would have saved a lot of post WW2 lives including the 55,000 good men and women who fought in Vietnam, as well as the ones in Korea from '50 to '53.

How can we maintain the idea that we are the "good guys" if we treat the people who sacrificed 20 million lives to crush Hitler like that?

Props to you as always, but as we can see, from our "good guy role", WE always wind up getting stabbed in the back. I used to be sold on the good guy image (and we are, to be sure) but it's just that you can't get stabbed in the back so many times without starting to feel it. That starts to hurt a bit, y' know..