V-E DAY

[indianasmith]

But the fact remains we DIDN'T have World War III in 1962, or any day since.  And while the 200,000 or so troops we lost in Vietnam and Korea were indeed a tragedy - not to mention the 2 million Vietnamese, Chinese, and Koreans that died in those conflicts - an all-out War with the Soviets in 1945 would have cost millions of lives on BOTH sides.

[Umaril Has Returned]

I saw a show on PBS a while back-about how even now-some of the German folks think that the foot soldiers didnt know what they were getting into-like they were innocent shmucks.   The soldiers werent dumb little kids-they knew. It was slaughter-I een pics of foot soldiers-not SS troops-smiling as they look at dogs eating the feet of hanging Jews.
BULLs**t.

As a man from a German-American family, I would please ask that you not associate all Germans with the Nazis. I had relatives who fought and died for Germany on WW2.

Of course I've seen pics of American soldiers hanging out  playing fun with dead Viet Cong-but that's another story.

Why is it different with Vietcong? Desecration of any soldier's body (or a POW or camp prisoner) is wrong. Regardless of what army they represent,  a soldier's belongings are sacred, from his rifle right down to the boots that he put 1,000 miles or more in. Two wrongs don't make a right no matter what army it is, WW2 or Vietnam, or now.

[Umaril Has Returned]

But the fact remains we DIDN'T have World War III in 1962, or any day since.  And while the 200,000 or so troops we lost in Vietnam and Korea were indeed a tragedy - not to mention the 2 million Vietnamese, Chinese, and Koreans that died in those conflicts - an all-out War with the Soviets in 1945 would have cost millions of lives on BOTH sides.

I'll agree with that, to be sure. 

I was just engaging in some speculation based on Germany's prototype super weapons.  They literally began the space race and the arms race before the Cold War.

If Von Braun and other former Axis scientists worked with our guys, they could have taken the Horten B-36, the Messerschmitt fighters and the King Tiger (among others) they could have perfected them and made them even more formidable (as well as our stuff too.)

Deep strikes on logistics would have made the difference as I said before. And while more people would have died, I feel the Sov's would have gotten the worst of it.

For the sake of more speculation, Russian troops would have had a Coalition-bolstered Poland and Slovakia to go thru, and for sake of the operation, a rehabilitated German-bolstered Finland (which was the object of Stalin's Winter War in 1939.)  Switzerland, which was a German-speaking pro-gun state had over 750,000 registered gun owners at the time and would have bolstered places such as Norway and Denmark in a Scandinavian coalition. 

Yes, a lot of people would have died, but the Russians would have gotten the worst of it.
Anyhow, just some speculative ideas, so kids, don't try this at home!   

[Josso]

But the fact remains we DIDN'T have World War III in 1962, or any day since.  And while the 200,000 or so troops we lost in Vietnam and Korea were indeed a tragedy - not to mention the 2 million Vietnamese, Chinese, and Koreans that died in those conflicts - an all-out War with the Soviets in 1945 would have cost millions of lives on BOTH sides.

I'll agree with that, to be sure. 

I was just engaging in some speculation based on Germany's prototype super weapons.  They literally began the space race and the arms race before the Cold War.

If Von Braun and other former Axis scientists worked with our guys, they could have taken the Horten B-36, the Messerschmitt fighters and the King Tiger (among others) they could have perfected them and made them even more formidable (as well as our stuff too.)

Deep strikes on logistics would have made the difference as I said before. And while more people would have died, I feel the Sov's would have gotten the worst of it.

For the sake of more speculation, Russian troops would have had a Coalition-bolstered Poland and Slovakia to go thru, and for sake of the operation, a rehabilitated German-bolstered Finland (which was the object of Stalin's Winter War in 1939.)  Switzerland, which was a German-speaking pro-gun state had over 750,000 registered gun owners at the time and would have bolstered places such as Norway and Denmark in a Scandinavian coalition. 

Yes, a lot of people would have died, but the Russians would have gotten the worst of it.
Anyhow, just some speculative ideas, so kids, don't try this at home!   

There is some talk of von braun and other project paperclip victims actually staying in contact with some of their scientist friends that had been taken by the russians & others, during the cold war. Letters were sent from military bases containing high level rocket schematics and stuff like that, in the height of the cold war - that always highly amuses me I really should check if it's true.

S'true about super weapons, V2 first object in space and then just after WW2 the Americans failed at least once trying to get some pictures back using them. Also I strongly believe given a bit more time they would have had the first stealth fighter in the world way before the F-117, infact some people speculate that the 117 was based in nazi prototypes. *x-files music* xD I could talk about this all day

[Umaril Has Returned]

But the fact remains we DIDN'T have World War III in 1962, or any day since.  And while the 200,000 or so troops we lost in Vietnam and Korea were indeed a tragedy - not to mention the 2 million Vietnamese, Chinese, and Koreans that died in those conflicts - an all-out War with the Soviets in 1945 would have cost millions of lives on BOTH sides.

I'll agree with that, to be sure. 

I was just engaging in some speculation based on Germany's prototype super weapons.  They literally began the space race and the arms race before the Cold War.

If Von Braun and other former Axis scientists worked with our guys, they could have taken the Horten B-36, the Messerschmitt fighters and the King Tiger (among others) they could have perfected them and made them even more formidable (as well as our stuff too.)

Deep strikes on logistics would have made the difference as I said before. And while more people would have died, I feel the Sov's would have gotten the worst of it.

For the sake of more speculation, Russian troops would have had a Coalition-bolstered Poland and Slovakia to go thru, and for sake of the operation, a rehabilitated German-bolstered Finland (which was the object of Stalin's Winter War in 1939.)  Switzerland, which was a German-speaking pro-gun state had over 750,000 registered gun owners at the time and would have bolstered places such as Norway and Denmark in a Scandinavian coalition. 

Yes, a lot of people would have died, but the Russians would have gotten the worst of it.
Anyhow, just some speculative ideas, so kids, don't try this at home!   

There is some talk of von braun and other project paperclip victims actually staying in contact with some of their scientist friends that had been taken by the russians & others, during the cold war. Letters were sent from military bases containing high level rocket schematics and stuff like that, in the height of the cold war - that always highly amuses me I really should check if it's true.

S'true about super weapons, V2 first object in space and then just after WW2 the Americans failed at least once trying to get some pictures back using them. Also I strongly believe given a bit more time they would have had the first stealth fighter in the world way before the F-117, infact some people speculate that the 117 was based in nazi prototypes. *x-files music* xD I could talk about this all day

Josso, the aircraft you speak of is the Horten B-36. Indeed, it was the basis for the F-117 Nightstorm.  The plane already had stealth capability in it at it's creation, but whether or not it was a by-product of the design, or intended, is still a matter of speculation. Be that as it may, no one can argue with the results.

The German Sturmgewehr 44 (or 44 Assault weapon) was effective to 700 feet, and the 30-rounds and 3-rate selective fire feature nearly rendered the M-1 Garand useless due to saturation-fire capabilities. The selective fire feature made it the first assault weapon.  The Russians used it's features to create the AK-47. It is the premiere assault weapon and it's impact upon modern weaponry cannot be denied.

People can say what they want about Germany (and as a German-American man whose had to live with BS guilt trips all my life, I've had to put up with this)  but no one can take away Germany's influence upon tactics, weapons, and tech. They re-wrote the book.

[Josso]

That's the one! Thanks for the info, it's a really interesting part of history. also I didn't know about the AK-47 roots - that doesn't actually surprise me too much at this stage

[RCMerchant]

As far as tech weapons go-I saw (on pbs,again) a show called Nazi mega weapons-they tried to make this huge,monster tank! DAM! And given enuff time-who knows-they brought jets into warfare-and little is known of the Bell-but I think the USA goverment knows more than they speak of...like what crashed in Pennslyvania in the 60's.
Hell-we gave Nazi scientists a green light over here just to mine their brains.
Politics has no morals.

[Josso]

Hell-we gave Nazi scientists a green light over here just to mine their brains.

That statement really reminds me of this incident:

A member of the team of expatriated German scientists who conducted the Hermes II flight test later was quoted as saying: “We were the first German unit to not only infiltrate the United States, but to attack Mexico from US soil!”  Not nearly so amused, the Army tightened-up range safety protocol at WSPG in the aftermath of the international incident.

http://www.whiteeagleaerospace.com/the-hermes-ii-incident/

[Umaril Has Returned]

That's the one! Thanks for the info, it's a really interesting part of history. also I didn't know about the AK-47 roots - that doesn't actually surprise me too much at this stage

One look at both weapons and you can see the resemblance:

http://youtu.be/9z-cQ8wQTUk
	Small | Large

[RCMerchant]

I gotta give the Nazis credit-they were always trying theyre damed  best to find bigger and better ways to kill as many people as possible.

[RCMerchant]

Umaril-I'm not trying to lay a guilt trip on the German people-hell-Hitler took a lesson from the good old USA-look at what we did to the American Indians-but that generation of people in that place and at that time had a f**ked up mind set.
And the good old USA-and slavery? The USA like to tout their the 'good guys"- Nazi Germany is not the first country to commit genocide-they just did it with up to date tech. Of course when s**t wasnt available-they just lined them up near big ditches and shot em.

[RCMerchant]

The thing is-Hitler had the cult of personality about him-its a dam good thing Pokemen didnt tell people to kill people or we would all be in a world of s**t. Our kids would be grown up and killing us all!
Hitler was like a rock star in 1930's Germany-and the influnce of mass propaganda cannot be understated-Goebbels was a master of this-they f**king worshiped this guy. It was like a religious fever. They got caught up in it-its a sad fact of life that folks leave common sense behind when mass hysteria grips them.

[Josso]

Definitely I mean like at North Korea for the last 50 years

[Umaril Has Returned]

I gotta give the Nazis credit-they were always trying theyre damed  best to find bigger and better ways to kill as many people as possible.

Well, for my final reply on this subject, I'll say this:

Zweiter Weltkrieg (or World War 2 in English) was something that shouldn't have happened.  But there were reasons, regardless of what the "winners" write about history.

Post WW1:
The Treaty Of Versailles was a legal writ of extortion and revenge based on military, cultural and political rivalries that promoted the opposite of the "peace" and "prosperity" it was supposed to promote in Germany.  Prostitution, unemployment, and vigilantes ruled post WW1 Germany while the Allies lived off of Germany and grew rich as Germans became poorer.

Pre-WW2:
At the height of Germany's destitution, almost 12 million were out of work. Add to this, the additional poverty when in 1933, the Daily Express headline read: "Judea Declares War On Germany".   

Was it worth the Holocaust? NO. However, that single act hurt and humiliated Germans who worked their asses off since 1929 to become the first country to get out of the Great Depression, as well as re-igniting anti-Semitic anger that was brewing since around 1920.

Nearly 20 years of poverty, broken promises and humiliation at the hands of their military and political rivals is what caused that anger Hitler took advantage of. No matter how much the Western powers see themselves as 'the good guys' what they did in this case was wrong.

If you hold down, humiliate and demoralize a people and hide behind a treaty that further neuters them,  and antagonize them while doing it you are going to live with the consequences sooner or later.  Those consequences?  World War Two.

If anything, WW2 should be a lesson about giving respect and dignity to a fallen foe, and ensuring that they become productive members of society, instead of howling unwashed mobs full of anger and hatred.  Had we done that to begin with, Hitler may have been a world-class painter and not a man who nearly destroyed the world.

Thanks for listening. God bless all veterans of all wars. 

[RCMerchant]

Well said,my freind.
But the fact remains-you dont experiment on children -torture people-play God for being repressed-the american blacks have LOTS to be angry about-as well as the American Indians-but taking over the world is not in the Indian agenda.  They did the Ghost Dance and died. The German people-and I have German blood in my veins-are a great nation who did much for the world-and they shouldn't be marked for the big stain that Nazi Germany cursed them with. But It is what it is-just as the USA committed mass genocide way before Hitler was even born. Just as the Catholic Church did with the Crusades-ideology trumps,it seems.
Very sad.