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Badmovies.org Forum  |  Other Topics  |  Off Topic Discussion  |  Terror Comes to North Texas « previous next »
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Author Topic: Terror Comes to North Texas  (Read 6188 times)
ulthar
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« Reply #15 on: May 13, 2015, 05:26:31 PM »

Free speech is a very messy topic. I will always err on the side of allowing as near to total freedom of expression as is practicable. As the saying goes, "I may not like what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." One of the biggest problems I see is that people confuse the freedom to express themselves with the freedom from consequences of that expression. If I may use indy in my example since he started all this hoopla, I am free to insult him, his family,  his religion, his ancestry, etc. He would likely turn the other cheek for awhile. Eventually, however, either I would find the one thing he will not allow to be abused (in his case, I would imagine it would be something to do with his family), or else just through sheer repetition I would wear him down to the point he would retaliate, perhaps verbally or perhaps with a well-deserved punch in the nose (which I could prosecute him for, however justified he might have been). Has he curtailed my right of free speech by stopping my abuse? No, but he has just as much right to express himself as I do. I may have been a total jackass, but unless I was making palpable threats, I was acting within my rights. He would also be acting within his rights to return my insults or possibly to sue me for slander.The only thing he would not have the right to do, and I wouldn't either, would be to escalate our feud to violence. It's messy, but it is also necessary in a free society for its citizens to be able to express whatever whackjob thing comes into their tiny little minds, as long as that thing is not a threat or in some way puts people in immediate danger. Anything less than this is not a truly free society.

Well said.

I'm reminded of a thought provoking video we watched in (I believe) 8th grade history when discussing the topic of freedoms.  It showed new-age Nazi setting up shop in front of a Jewish Temple to pass out pamphlets and to "Street Preach" to passerby.

The gist was someone "shut him down" by force.  Then the movie ended.  The point was for us to hold a mock trial about that person's assault (or attempted murder, or whatever).  Was the Jewish - Nazi connection sufficient to justify the assault? Was the Nazi JUST exercising free speech, even though he went out of his way to choose that location, possibly to provoke an attack?  It was open ended on purpose, and the teacher pushed us really hard to explore many of the angles.

There is no easy answer other than an absolutist approach...freedom, even when it is messy or painful, rules.  If the government tries to step in with new laws that seek to prohibit anti-Muslim art, it is a clear violation of "Congress Shall Pass No Law" as far as I can see it.

The First Amendment does not have a "unless someone's feelings get hurt" clause.
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« Reply #16 on: May 14, 2015, 11:40:02 AM »

The underlying moral of this story is, Texans are good shots. Terrorists beware.  Cheers
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« Reply #17 on: May 14, 2015, 01:57:02 PM »

Yeah it kind of shows the limits of the whole homegrown jihadi thing. In the 90's they would train in Afghanistan and whatnot. These guys just walked in the front door with no plan and no aim.
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« Reply #18 on: May 14, 2015, 05:33:17 PM »

Some people were calling the event a honeypot for terrorists, which is crass but kind of true.

I also support Derf's statement on free speech.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2015, 05:35:45 PM by Rev. Powell » Logged

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indianasmith
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« Reply #19 on: May 14, 2015, 06:01:13 PM »

You know what amazes me - these two thugs had body armor and automatic weapons.
The cop took them both down with a 9mm handgun before they could kill anyone.

Salute!
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« Reply #20 on: May 14, 2015, 08:10:47 PM »

Exactly, the cops were pros
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Derf
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« Reply #21 on: May 15, 2015, 09:30:00 PM »

I thought it was interesting that this comic appeared this week. It seems very relevant to this thread.

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« Reply #22 on: May 16, 2015, 06:00:56 AM »


Hate speech and free speech are separate things


Wholeheartedly disagree with that statement. 

This is why liberty is messy. So many want their own personal liberty but want also to define the "allowed" liberties others have.
Amen-Though the whole idea of-"dont draw pictures of my God" is infantile-and morons who do it for the sole reason that they are racist backwoods hillbilly sister f**kers-ahhh...I aint even gonna go on...pfft! Lookingup
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« Reply #23 on: May 16, 2015, 09:21:22 AM »

Exactly, the cops were pros

Head shots, anyone?
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« Reply #24 on: May 18, 2015, 04:41:23 AM »

I could be wrong here, but its my understanding that its only some Islamic sects that have an issue with images of Mohammad. As for free speach, I remember growning up hearing a lot of people saying "Its your right to say what you want, and I'll defend that to the death, but its my right to punch you in the mouth for saying it too!"

While I feel equal rights and political correctness have done a lot of good I also feel in a lot of ways its went way too far and part of me misses the old days. Its damn hard to strike a balance between whats excessive though and whats acceptable. Towards the end of my time in training all of us were lined up on parade and told that a civilian librarian employed on the base had went to the boss with a list of what she considered to be intimidating behaviour by trainees. We were warned that anyone caught carrying out any of the following activities would be charged.

1) Rough housing in the car park. Ok, this one I can understand. It was winter so got dark early and a woman walking alone through a car park could get scared by lads carrying on.
2) Bad language. Personally I generally try not to swear (doesn't always work), but come on bear in mind the environment you chose to work in. Harsh language is the least of your worries.
3) Carrying bags in an aggresive manner. This immediently brought a mental image of people fixing bayonets to kit bags and charging. I haven't been able to figure out quite what she meant by that and the disip giving us the brief couldn't tell us what it was either. But he did make sure we knew we'd be punished for doing what ever it was.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2019, 08:57:21 AM by Alex » Logged

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indianasmith
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« Reply #25 on: May 18, 2015, 06:23:02 AM »

The prohibition on depictions of Muhammad holds true for all Muslims, so far as I know.
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Newt
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« Reply #26 on: May 18, 2015, 08:31:41 AM »

Most of what we see of Islamic art is geometric designs.  Depictions of humans in Islamic art are uncommon, largely historical (as in: of older vintage) and generally limited to smaller, 'private' works.  Apparently portraits of Muhammad do exist, historically.  Though it has been argued that none can be considered accurate.

Depictions of people in 'religious' art are prohibited by Sharia Law as idolatry.  One might assume any portrait of Muhammad would be considered 'religious' simply by virtue of its subject matter.

Of course, not all Muslims follow Sharia Law.  But maybe there is some consideration given to sparing others' delicate sensibilities. 
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« Reply #27 on: May 18, 2015, 11:29:41 AM »

I used to post at a Shia Muslim forum when I was learning about foreign policy. I met some cool people, but in general it's a strange religion by western standards, kind of more like a cult. They're paralyzed with fear about every little thing. They have a Jehovah's witness type attitude towards music like it's evil. They mostly watch Disney movies. They're constantly besieging these Imams in Iran and Iraq with dopey questions about can I do this can I do that. Is wearing cologne haram?

The few Sunnis who showed up there were pretty rude and it's clear they really dislike Shias. The Shias would prefer to get along with the Sunnis and they support them politically in regards to Palestine, hating the US etc. I talked to one Sunni who it seemed like he had dedicated his entire life to just hating Shias and I really can't understand why.

The Shias are kind of ironically much more forthright in their opposition to US and so forth. You never see Iran or hezbollah making deals with Israel or going to these resorts like the Saudi princes and so forth do.

They also all indulge in conspiracy theories though. I would guess most Muslims don't believe the Holocaust happened or that 9/11 was the work of Al Queda.
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