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March 28, 2024, 10:24:36 AM
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Author Topic: A Serious Topic for my Blog Tonight . . .  (Read 7501 times)
Skull
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« Reply #15 on: September 16, 2016, 06:43:41 AM »

Actually, the Pacific Fleet was always stationed at Pearl.

The pacific fleet was moved from San Diego to Pearl Harbor in the early 1941.


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FDR desperately wanted to get the USA in the war against Hitler - hence all his aid to the British - but public opinion just wasn't there.  He was going to try to make the case after declaring war on Japan, but then Hitler declared war and saved him the trouble.


If that was true then he should had declare war on Germany and Italy after the Pearl Harbor attack because Germany, Italy and Japan were already partners. That's why I have doubts that FDR wanted to go to war with Germany.


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Two excellent books: THE NEW DEALER'S WAR: FDR AND THE WAR WITHIN WORLD WAR II by Thomas Fleming (he REALLY takes a wrecking ball to FDR's reputation as a war leader) and PEARL HARBOR: THE FINAL CHAPTER, written by the officer who led the investigation into the attacks during the war and interviewed all the principals, but didn't publish his book until 50 years later.  I may not have the title right; that one's in my library at school.

First I need to look into Thomas Fleming, there are too many so called historians that are too busy in rewriting American history for a political agenda.  

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Roosevelt knew an attack of some sort was coming

that's pretty sinister I mean his whole job is to protect the life and livelihood of Americans and hes deliberately putting them in danger. To do what: help communist China?

FDR moved the ships to Pearl Harbor to protect the Philippines from Japan.

@Indy, once again FDR did no such act in Europe. England was attacked several times before 1941...  
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lester1/2jr
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« Reply #16 on: September 16, 2016, 09:34:16 AM »

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A patriot might say he saved the world from fascist domination.

or a patriot might say what he did led to half a century of communist domination
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indianasmith
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« Reply #17 on: September 16, 2016, 08:09:51 PM »

Pearl Harbor was a permanent base, and at least some of the fleet was stationed there full time.  I can look and see as far as movements early in 1941, but it would have made sense, as the Philippines were still a U.S. protectorate at the time, to put the carriers there if they weren't there already.  Japan was committed to a policy of expansion, and the Philippines were in their path.

I'm not sure what you mean by Europe - yes, the war had been going on for awhile.  There was a strong isolationist sentiment in American to keep us out of it; FDR sent all the aid he could while pushing public opinion against Germany.  He loaned the British fifty of our older destroyers to help chase down German U-boats, instituted Lend-Lease, and encouraged American Naval aircraft to report the position of any German vessels they spotted to the British - a violation of neutrality, that, but he was worried about what might happen if England fell.  I don't have the hate  for FDR that many conservative Americans do, nor to I consider him a demigod like many on the left.  He was a guy who was dealt a very, very tough hand from the get-go, played it as well as he could, and won more than he lost.

As for the end results of the war - yes, the Communists won in the short term, but we did keep them out of Western Europe, and eventually rolled them back out of Eastern Europe.  China was beyond saving, I think, due to the corruption and incompetence of the nationalist government.

As for the slam about modern historians, I will say this much:  there are NO unbiased historians.  Such a creature never has and never will exist.  However, bias does not necessarily negate objectivity.  I read almost nothing but history, some of it well-written and well-researched, some not so much.  But the majority of the historians I have read do NOT play fast and loose with the facts and try to base their conclusions on where the facts take them.  It is a fun time to be a historian right now; research is easier than ever thanks to the web, and there is some excellent work being done.

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lester1/2jr
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« Reply #18 on: September 18, 2016, 06:03:40 PM »

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He was a guy who was dealt a very, very tough hand from the get-go, played it as well as he could

he turned an economic downturn into a decade plus long recession, tricked the US into a war they didn't want part of and set the progressive govt we suffer from to this day on it's path.  He was basically an american Mussolini. In his defense that's what people wanted that whole 20th century vibe blech

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China was beyond saving, I think, due to the corruption and incompetence of the nationalist government.

yet it was okay to intervene on their behalf and drop bombs on Japanese citizens!

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yes, the Communists won in the short term,

in Russia and Chine to the mass detriment of humanity. I follow some Russians on twitter they are obsessed with ww2 they think it absolves them of all the crimes they committed because they fought the fascists.  communism was exported all over the world. how many fascist governments existed?

there are communist parties to this day all over Europe in large part because we essentially gave them our seal of approval back then

every action has a reaction is all I'm saying
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Skull
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« Reply #19 on: September 19, 2016, 06:29:36 AM »

I don't really hate FDR but I believe he was one of the worst presidents we had ever had. And there is so much stuff about him that seemed to not make any sense or it was rewritten so it could make him look good. And there are too many Americans assumed FDR was the greatest president because he served 4 terms.

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lester1/2jr
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« Reply #20 on: September 19, 2016, 10:15:25 AM »

He did end prohibition though which in a sense does make him the greatest president ever
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Skull
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« Reply #21 on: September 19, 2016, 10:46:04 AM »

He did end prohibition though which in a sense does make him the greatest president ever

Prohibition was going to end regardless who was president. And I believe Prohibition was a necessary evil so when it was repealed the American people and liqueur companies would accept the regulations.
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indianasmith
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« Reply #22 on: September 19, 2016, 05:45:27 PM »

Lester - I understand, with your Libertarian philosophy, why you despise FDR (and just about every other President in American history, for that matter).
But the idea that Roosevelt inherited a minor economic hiccup and turned it into the Great Depression simply doesn't hold up under the facts.

When he took office in 1933, he inherited a country on the brink of collapse and revolution.  It's easy for us to forget today, but between 1929 and 1940, worldwide, 27 democratic governments collapsed and were replaced with fascism or communism or some other form of dictatorship.  Officially, unemployment was at 25%, unofficially, probably closer to 30-35%.  6000 banks had collapsed nationwide, carrying the majority of their depositors' savings with them.  There was literal starvation in the streets of many major cities.  125,000 lost jobs a week.  It was the worst economic panic in the history of the country, and there was no sign anything was getting better.

Some of the stuff Roosevelt did just flat WORKED.  The Emergency Banking Act, which created FDIC, cut bank failures by over 90% and restored faith in the Financial System.  The Agricultural Adjustment Act saved tens of thousands of American farmers from going under.  The Works Progress Administration created a huge amount of jobs - some were busy-work, but others did remarkable and worthwhile things, creating buildings and monuments that still stand today - like the Art Deco masterpiece that is Fair Park in Dallas. 

MOST of all, and this is incredibly important - FDR restored the confidence of the American people.  Sometimes the intangibles mean something, and Roosevelt made the people believe in their government again.  They believed in HIM.  I can remember during my senior year in high school, hearing a senior citizen say: "There's only been one President in my lifetime who gave a d**n about the little guy, and that was Franklin Roosevelt."

Was it true?  Maybe, maybe not.  Roosevelt was an aristocrat, and like all politicians, a very adept liar.  I don't agree with all he did, and I certainly don't fall for the old liberal saw that "the New Deal ended the Depression." That it certainly did NOT.  But  it did make the Depression much more tolerable, and gave the people a sense of hope and optimism that Hoover never did.  That's why I think FDR was a great President.

As for your comments about communism - there were ALREADY communist parties all over Europe in the 1930's, well before the war started.  Frankly, capitalism had the suckiest decade in its history at that time, and communism SEEMED like an appealing alternative, especially since the Soviet Union under Stalin did a great job of masking its atrocities and portraying itself as a worker's paradise.

Yes, we could have stayed out of World War 2.  What would have been the result?  Either the fascists or the communists would have won, and ALL of Europe would have been under their banner, which means we would eventually have had to fight for our own survival against one or the other of the most evil philosophies of all time.  Not to mention Hitler, win or lose, would most likely have had time to complete the Holocaust, and the Jewish race in Europe would have been completely exterminated, along with the gypsies and many other minority groups that he considered "untermenschen."

I know your philosophy is to stay out of everything, pretty much, but some evils need to be crushed.  Fascism was one, Stalinism was the other.  We couldn't take down both at once, but we eventually eliminated both.
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lester1/2jr
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« Reply #23 on: September 19, 2016, 07:38:59 PM »

Indy - my philosophy is more based on not getting carried away with superlatives and "arc of history" type nationalist fervor. Roosevelt, Lincoln, Reagan and others were just people doing jobs. We pay their salaries they aren't sun Gods.

I get the argument about the holocaust. I'm not an anti semite or like some kind of ghoul.

I just really think the 20th century mentality is dangerous and look at the ridiculous body count of that era. it's staggering. I think this century is going to go in the opposite direction towards more decentralization. It's happening already. Who would listen to a "fireside chat" from Hillary or Trump or even Jill Stein
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indianasmith
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« Reply #24 on: September 19, 2016, 10:12:40 PM »

I understand that and respect it.  I am of the old Thomas Carlyle school of thought, that "Great men make history."
Some American Presidents have been nothing more than bureaucrats who shuffled through the job and accomplished little.
Others changed the world, for good or bad.  I find them to be fascinating because most of them were ordinary citizens who found their way into an extraordinarily difficult job and used it to make a mark that endures for generations.

I guess I am the sort that needs heroes. . .  or at least wants them!  Cheers
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lester1/2jr
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« Reply #25 on: September 20, 2016, 07:06:21 PM »

bah
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Skull
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« Reply #26 on: September 21, 2016, 09:05:51 AM »

I understand that and respect it.  I am of the old Thomas Carlyle school of thought, that "Great men make history."
Some American Presidents have been nothing more than bureaucrats who shuffled through the job and accomplished little.
Others changed the world, for good or bad.  I find them to be fascinating because most of them were ordinary citizens who found their way into an extraordinarily difficult job and used it to make a mark that endures for generations.

I guess I am the sort that needs heroes. . .  or at least wants them!  Cheers


Odd... so why are you against Trump? Or maybe we should save it on the other thread...
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indianasmith
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« Reply #27 on: September 21, 2016, 10:09:33 PM »

Short answer - I find him utterly despicable and devoid of character.
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Skull
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« Reply #28 on: September 22, 2016, 06:19:47 AM »

Short answer - I find him utterly despicable and devoid of character.

Lookingup
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Flangepart
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« Reply #29 on: September 28, 2016, 06:05:02 PM »

A patriot might say he saved the world from fascist domination.   TeddyR
He had his share.
Loved your blog post Indy. How anyone could believe any human was capable of planning a sophisticated, ingenious stunt like that...and not have his lackeys gum up the works is beyond me.
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