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Author Topic: Been Thinking About McCarthyism This Morning  (Read 6560 times)
ER
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« on: October 31, 2018, 09:10:56 AM »

Ten thoughts.....

1.   McCarthy was a fraud, a boor, a self-promoter, and an opportunist. He was also eccentric and his favorite snack was a stick of Wisconsin butter and a pint of whisky.

2.   McCarthy did not believe his own BS until late in the game when the momentum of hysteria convinced him he hit on an unlikely truth. The term “a laundry list” does appear to relate to the claim he was literally holding a laundry list when he said he had a list of Communists in high-ranking domestic positions.


3.   The Cold War was a brutal conflict (yes, it was a war) with the future of the world at stake and it’s too easy for us in our perches of safety to dismiss fears of Communism as hysteria, when it was not unfounded, only exploited by Democrats and Republicans here in the US, and in reverse terms by Communists in the East Bloc.

4.   We now know in hindsight that slightly before McCarthy’s infamous press conference Stalin had boasted to his inner circle that he had infiltrated each branch of the US government. He turned that achievement into one of the last celebrations of his life. Whatever was made of what McCarthy set in motion, Soviet intelligence was operating from deep within US government, industry, the sciences and society, and it did so largely with varying degrees of support from sympathizers here at home. That was not a myth, however politically exploited the efforts against that infiltration soon were.


5.   What resulted from McCarthy’s power grab can be fairly termed a witch hunt but the extent to which the left has tried to enshrine all of those ruined by HUAC is misplaced whining, since total innocence against suspicion was rare and consequences were minor in comparison to the mythology that’s arisen that has it that victims of McCarthyism were destroyed for life. Most went on to lead successful careers that soon saw them back at work in fields like education and entertainment, which is where most of the famous “victims” were. After the social explosion of McCarthyism, life mostly went back to the way it was before HUAC’s witch hunt, and in the 1960s the mentors of the counterculturalists boasted of having been targeted by HUAC. Since many went on to publicly boast of the very sympathies HUAC was seeking out, were they all truly victims? Some people were, most were guilty as presented.

6.   HUAC (which pre-dated McCarthy, having been founded in the 1930s) went way too far, went in the wrong directions, and became vote-grabbing theater very fast.  In doing so it surrendered its chance to be useful to the US in serving the role it set out to undertake.


7.   It was not illegal to be a Communist in the United States, and if you were one and said so, HUAC had no real power to do anything to you. True you likely faced social ostracism and impoverishment but that’s far nicer than what the Soviets did to their dissenters. Those punished by HUAC were either perjurers or those who took the high road and refused to answer the question. Compare that to someone refusing to publicly condemn racism today. Arguably Communism did much more harm than racism and was a more potent threat, yet in our own times we have an ongoing witch hunt, as well.

8.   At first HUAC actually did have enough tactically behind it to concern the Soviets. When it became apparent how silly HUAC had become, the Soviets were deeply relieved. Long before the American public figured it out, the USSR was aware that HUAC was at heart a political spectacle serving the ends of the vote-hungry politicians who ran it. (It was about far more politicians than McCarthy alone, and Democrats profited from it alongside Republicans, including liberal Democrats in the Senate.)


9.   HUAC went wrong fast but at its heart its ideals were not as insane or cruel as posterity likes to think. HUAC hurt very few Americans. The left has always exaggerated its negative impact. Most of its targets….well, when there’s smoke often there is fire. Hollywood then was as radical as Hollywood now, and why shouldn’t Communists with anti-American sentiments have been revealed as what they were? Jailed? Certainly not! That’d be un-American. Beaten up? No. But made to stand in the light of public judgment for their convictions? Why is that atrocious? They were what they were. Why at the height of the Cold War should enemy-sympathizers within the US have been rewarded by benefitting from the fruits of an American nation toward which many of them were not supportive?

10.   Here is a thought for you. The wrongs of seventy years ago can’t be retroactively righted, but today Americans are equally hunted down and similarly persecuted, their lives ruined, in an ongoing PC witch hunt against such blanket offenses as “racism” “sexism” “homophobia” that most Americans get behind as ardently and shallowly as their grandparents did HUAC’s witch hunt, though as yet the outcry against the 21st century witch hunt is not strong enough turn the destructive tide. We may well live to see a comparison drawn between McCarthy-ism and what is happening right now, but at this moment are you insightful enough to see what’s happening, or are you swept along in the current like your forebears were? Are you really any more of aware than they were?
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« Reply #1 on: October 31, 2018, 09:21:29 AM »

All i'm going to say here is response to this bait is that anytime a group is  established and defined  as "the enemy"  then anyone and everyone who disagrees with the people who have defined that group as the enemy becomes part of that targeted group.

In modern america democrats are called "Muslims" and "pedophiles" with zero evidence whatsoever by the conservatives.  Those groups have been defined as "the  enemy" so anyone who disagrees with the republicans is now a Muslim and a pedophile.  Alex Jones has openly said that Robert muller rapes children with not one iota of proof because Muller is on the other side of the fence.

Conservatives have a long history of demonizing anyone who disagrees with them,  using the government and law to harass,  person cute and terrorize those who agency part of their little collective.  To heart  them snivelling over people who have traditionally been victims of harassment and abuse fighting back is annoying st best,  disgusting at worst.
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ER
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« Reply #2 on: October 31, 2018, 09:50:32 AM »

There are vile people in all political camps and none should be supported for their wrongs. I've heard and read rhetoric from left and right, Sven, that's disgusted me. Extremism on both ends of the spectrum is a threat to liberty.

I'm being genuine when I say I think there is a witch hunt in our culture today, and it's wrong.

I don't know how much Bradbury you've read, Sven (or anyone here) but I read a lot, and something that made a big impression on me as a teenager was that the book burners in Fahrenheit 451 and the suppressors of books in The Martian Chronicles were not fascists or Communists, they were ordinary people who took up the idea that society had to be protected from offensive ideas. Anything sound familiar about that today?
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« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2018, 10:26:17 AM »

I've read some Bradbury. I've never read Orwell's '1984' although a couple of weekends ago I almost did. I had picked the book up and was on the way to the checkout when I decided, no. If I read this I am going to find too many parallels with todays society. Just as a side note, I replied to a post a friend had made about why we are currently seeing an upsurge in far right activity. When I get home, I'll cut and paste it over here. I'd be interested in hearing other peoples views on my thoughts on it.
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ER
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« Reply #4 on: October 31, 2018, 11:13:59 AM »

I've read some Bradbury. I've never read Orwell's '1984' although a couple of weekends ago I almost did. I had picked the book up and was on the way to the checkout when I decided, no. If I read this I am going to find too many parallels with todays society. Just as a side note, I replied to a post a friend had made about why we are currently seeing an upsurge in far right activity. When I get home, I'll cut and paste it over here. I'd be interested in hearing other peoples views on my thoughts on it.

I do business with Germans daily and have gotten to know some as friends and have had talks on this subject (most of them tend toward the left, which is fine, whatever), and I am a citizen of the Republic of Ireland, having lived a chunk of my life there, with most of my maternal family there now, and I think much of the rise of the right in leftist-controlled Europe is in reaction to the cultural displacement going on with the influx of immigrants coming into Europe under the EU's short-sighted policies.

The typical reaction among the left in Europe and in the US as a whole has been to blame the natives for xenophobia, but I know the other side is that many of these immigrants are not the sort of people you'd want living in your city, let alone your neighborhood.

In Ireland during the Celtic Tiger of the 1990s, Poles flooded Galway, many stayed, and honestly, I wish they were not there because crime soared, drug use soared, and much of that came with Polish gangs coming into that quiet corner of Ireland. I saw with my own eyes how Polish gangs were destroying the east side of the city and Polish workers were coming in and undercutting Irish laborers, stealing jobs. Tensions naturally rise in those situations, and are the locals wrong to not want foreigners there?

In short I sympathize with some of the right-wing resurgence in Europe, it's just people trying to hang onto their nations, especially against the evil that comes with the presence of Islam, though I don't get behind anyone advocating violence, just think immigration policy in the developed world needs to be changed.

The west does a terrible job of reporting how many hate crimes immigrants are committing against citizens native to the countries they have moved into.
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« Reply #5 on: October 31, 2018, 12:46:07 PM »

Funnily enough, on the west coast of Scotland during the same period we had the same problems with Irish immigrants. I really struggled getting work between my college courses and after leaving school. You couldn't even rent a house, as they were all rented in bulk, then shared between the work gangs.

The Poles we have at the moment, although accused of taking jobs are actually taking ones that native people were refusing to take (such as working in a local fish processing plant), and we now are having major problems filling the jobs these people used to do as with Brexit looming they are increasingly heading homewards. Trouble is that this isn't just affecting low level jobs, but other things too. For example, the local hospital has had to close its maternity ward as they can't get people to relocate here, despite offering wages around the £100,000 mark.

I fear the Brexiteers dream of controlling our own borders is going to lead to many more such problems, then when its seen it isn't working they'll have to relax the laws and then we'll end up with a flood of people.

Mostly the Poles here have not been a problem. Crime rates amongst them are, well slightly less than the native population, but not to any big degree (I think 0.01% difference, although it has been about 4 or 5 years since I last looked at the local crime figures).

I do agree than Germany made a mistake with its completely open door policy, and they've paid for that. I can see how given their history though they would do things that way. I think Finland has the best integration of immigrants, possibly due to all incomers having to attend a course on the Finnish lifestyle and values (something I think every country should do for immigrants as a requirement for entry).
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LilCerberus
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« Reply #6 on: October 31, 2018, 02:08:22 PM »

I heard somewhere the whole thing started because McCarthy was jealous of Nixon for the conviction of Alger Hiss....
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« Reply #7 on: October 31, 2018, 04:53:57 PM »

The is the post I mentioned earlier.

Quote
Interesting, although I'd argue what is happening just now is simply the counter movement to the left wing agenda that has been ascendent for the past several decades in first world countries. Rights for minority groups, political correctness and so on have been enforced with laws that have forced people who disagree with these things back into a corner and now they are finding a way out. We haven't changed these peoples views, just put them on the sidelines. Hate and ignorence were still there, just not quite as out in the open and social trends were mistaken for some inevitable tide of change and now this is the price that is going to be paid.

Basically I think one section of society has been trying to force their views onto everyone (and I am not arguing here the rights and wrongs of each viewpoint here), and what we are now seeing is the inevitable backlash against it. The wheel turns round again, and no one really learns the lessons of the past. I think in many countries we will see a reversal of progress in human rights and equality for a while and rather than pushing for more, work has to be done to defend existing rights now.

Anyway, hopefully I am wrong but it is how I think the world is going to be going until the wheel turns round again and we end up repeating other previous mistakes.
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« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2018, 04:50:33 PM »

That's a lot to think of in the mroning
I mostly think about taking a s**t and drinking coffee-not always in that order.
But either one or the two.
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« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2018, 04:57:20 PM »

...Either one or two...
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« Reply #10 on: November 01, 2018, 05:06:14 PM »

...Either one or two...
Because some times I need coffee to make me s**t. It's like a Catch-22.
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« Reply #11 on: November 01, 2018, 05:11:08 PM »

If you think about it, s**tting and coffee compliment each other much like Laurel and Hardy.

And I will stand by that statement!  hot
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« Reply #12 on: November 01, 2018, 10:26:26 PM »

I'll add this to the thoughts of the OP here:
 

For all his posturing and bluster, McCarthy never caught a single Communist spy.  In fact, he probably did more damage to the cause of anti-Communism in America than any Communist agent ever did!

And for all his vilification by the left, Nixon actually did uncover a very highly placed Communist agent (Alger Hiss) who had, as Undersecretary of State, passed many secret documents to the Soviets, including most of President Roosevelt's notes at the Yalta Conference.
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« Reply #13 on: November 01, 2018, 10:50:03 PM »

I'll add this to the thoughts of the OP here:
For all his posturing and bluster, McCarthy never caught a single Communist spy.  In fact, he probably did more damage to the cause of anti-Communism in America than any Communist agent ever did!

And for all his vilification by the left, Nixon actually did uncover a very highly placed Communist agent (Alger Hiss) who had, as Undersecretary of State, passed many secret documents to the Soviets, including most of President Roosevelt's notes at the Yalta Conference.
HISS went to prison for perjury.  He was not charged with espionage.  NIXON is vilified by the right, too. 
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« Reply #14 on: November 01, 2018, 10:53:24 PM »

He went to prison for perjury, but evidence has shown that  he was, in fact, a Communist agent, as Nixon and Whitaker Chambers said all along.
Nixon is an incredibly complex figure; he ended the Vietnam War, gave us the EPA, opened relations with China,  signed the Clean Air and Water Act into law, supported the 26th Amendment, and is the only American besides FDR to be nominated for national office FIVE times.  But he also violated the law and was rightly forced to resign in disgrace.

I think that historians will be debating his rightful status as a President a century from now and be no closer to finally deciding than we are today.
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