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Author Topic: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!  (Read 73804 times)
indianasmith
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« Reply #675 on: November 27, 2022, 09:06:18 AM »

For me, the bottom line is Ukraine didn't invade Russia.  Ukraine wasn't GOING to invade Russia.  Ukraine hasn't invaded ANYONE in the last century that I know of.
Russia is not a democracy; Putin wields almost total power over Russia's foreign policy.
PUTIN made the decision to invade and take over Ukraine.  Putin sentenced thousands of Ukrainian soldiers and tens of thousands of Russian soldiers to their deaths, not to mention thousands of civilians as well.
Putin CHOSE to launch the largest European war since World War II.
He may or may not be a "crazy SOB," but he IS an evil man and a mass murderer.
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« Reply #676 on: November 27, 2022, 09:32:30 AM »

Oh, but, Indy, the US MADE him do it! He had no choice! Why can't you see that???? The poor man had every option taken away by the evil West til....til he had nothing left he could do.  I feel so bad for Putin. As an American this is my lowest point of shame, all that blood on my hands.
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« Reply #677 on: November 27, 2022, 10:22:41 AM »

Final thoughts....

I see it all like this. If a home invader breaks into your neighbor's house and is trying to steal what's his and kill his family, you don't analyze what motivated the home invader, you help your neighbor out, especially if he has children affected b the invader's cruelty.

To excuse Putin by saying he was provoked is like blaming the victim of a date rape because of how she was dressed. There are lines one doesn't cross.

If the US has done things that are wrong, then two wrongs don't make what Russia did right, it makes Putin equally wrong and equally open to condemnation as a warmonger. So I condemn Putin's LATEST invasion as I've condemned all of them for the last almost twenty years. It is wrong and Putin is a corrupt, murderous dictator, the worst leader in Europe since Hitler.

And, ralfy, if you are serious in the points you've raised, then you're silly and have zero idea how to make an argument and no awareness of the setting and audience you're trying to reach. That's been your main failing, a tone deafness for this crowd. Although if as I suspect, you're having us all on by going to the depths of absurdity, then you're a hilarious genius. My hat goes off to you for being wiling to make yourself an ass in everyone's eyes for the sake of comedy.

And, to answer your question, no, I am not "senior CIA" just a stay at home Mom enjoying retirement and getting ready to turn forty-four, an age I find myself surprised to reach.

And actually while I'm thinking of "senior" CIA, the loftier the title someone holds in the CIA, the less important that person tends to be. Political appointees come and go and mostly get in the way of those with real influence. The real power is held by people you will never hear of, dear. In the CIA it can get a little like the mafia, loyalty given to figures within the agency, and the real work springing from that. Little lesson for you I'll toss in for free so you can find graphs and charts to counterpoint me and give us all a good chuckle. Really, you're a brilliant satirist.  Thumbup

Happy trails, everyone!
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« Reply #678 on: November 27, 2022, 04:59:28 PM »

Oh, but, Indy, the US MADE him do it! He had no choice! Why can't you see that???? The poor man had every option taken away by the evil West til....til he had nothing left he could do.  I feel so bad for Putin. As an American this is my lowest point of shame, all that blood on my hands.

LOL!

Ralfy brings up things that happened a lifetime or a century ago to excuse pooty. Well if you want to do that one can bring up what happened when Hitler was allowed to annnex countries and territories long ago without resistance to justify stopping poots now, especially after he stole Crimea a few years back.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2022, 05:04:08 PM by Morpheus, the unwoke. » Logged

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« Reply #679 on: November 27, 2022, 08:30:11 PM »

No matter how one tries to excuse pooty if he intended his act to benefit russia he is a grossly inept and unfit leader, certainly not one fit to lead a nation with a nuclear arsenal of any size.

Rather than benefit Russia his actions have harmed it terribly, the sanctions have crippled much of its economy and industry, their military has been humiliated and decimated,  they're a pariah state and a laughing stock on the world stage.

His act lead Russia to disaster and his inability to forsee the results mark him unfit to lead a boy scout troop let alone a failed state with a nuclear arsenal. No amount of America bashing,  west blaming and citing events of 50-100 years past can his pooty's failing abd his exposure as a leader who can only think in terms of force, violence and murder as solutions to issues.

How could a ''world leader'' be so inept as to not for see obvious negative reactions to his act?  By being a despot who value loyalty to himself as the only virtue in those around him, who surrounds himself with ruthless yes men who only tell him he's right, by crushing or murdering anyone who tries to tell him disagreeable truths while rewarding his sycophants with license to steal the nation's wealth for praising his every decision as genius.

These are the results of allowing a ruthless, homocidial,  psychopathic narcissist into power.

Indianasmith was right when he said that the blood of all who have died in this catastrophe are on poots hands, yes even the two poles who died when a ukranian intercept missile struck Poland accidentally.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2022, 08:41:04 PM by Morpheus, the unwoke. » Logged

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« Reply #680 on: November 28, 2022, 12:23:41 AM »

Ukraine is not exactly what we would call a Jeffersonian democracy either
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Alex
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« Reply #681 on: November 28, 2022, 05:25:07 AM »

A Russian official has admitted to severe shortages facing their troops confessing they had a lack of socks (particularly dangerous at this time of year), doctors, communications and intelligence. Such admissions while rare, have been coming out increasingly often.

The UK is sending Sea King helicopters to give Ukraine a search and rescue facility. That particular platform while old was a good one and I was sorry to see them go out of service. Hopefully, they will continue their previous role and save many more lives within the golden hour.
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« Reply #682 on: November 28, 2022, 06:00:46 PM »

Russia has had communication problems since ww2 where they suffered severe shortages of radios in planes and tanks. I guess some things never change.
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« Reply #683 on: November 28, 2022, 09:05:29 PM »

I think ralfy is a performance artist giving an impression of one of those argumentative nerds in a 100-level political science class who interrupts the teacher every couple minutes to advocate a stance no one else holds. I truly do. Think about it, gang, nobody could deliberately spread so much misinformation unless it was an act or hold these opinions in real life. He's actually been pretty funny and hasn't broken character yet. I could be wrong but I think he's role playing and laughing along with us.

I think "argumentative nerds" are those who condescendingly tell others they don't want to make fun of them, and then proceed to make fun of them. After which they end with the flourish "I truly do" to elicit laughter from the rest of the "gang." Their conclusion: it's all "misinformation" but will never explain why.

That certainly gives new meaning to breaking character and role-playing. But do go on, professor, don't let me interrupt your performance.

.
.
.
.
.
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I'm kidding, I'm kidding! No, really, I am. Don't get angry at me.

I don't take attacking the person and not the issue seriously, but I do take the issue itself seriously. That's why I post a lot of sources. But you're right, they're mostly on the 100-level. The weird thing is that when you go to the 200-level, where you go beyond the simplistic narrative of crazy SOBs that the stance that I share in this thread actually becomes the norm in the classroom.

But, sometimes, even on the 100-level, you see cracks: things that don't gel with "real life" (that is, what mainstream media wants you to know). Here's an example that's related to this thread:

https://twitter.com/RnaudBertrand/status/1597170690830237696

Tweets put together by a thread app:

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1597170690830237696.html

The Western perspective is that the Chinese are oppressed (and thus must be freed), their leaders are tyrants (which means regime change must take place), the authorities control them using a social credit score (which means there must be free markets and limited government), and they are now finally revolting and want the CCP removed (yes, revolution, just like what happened in Ukraine and what might have been in Thailand and HK).

Easy-to-follow narrative, right? Russia, bad guy. China, bad guy. U.S., good guy.

It turns out that China has hundreds of protests each year, the average citizen is confrontational before authorities, and probably even more so than the average Westerner, that authorities sometimes concede and sometimes don't, there's no control using a social credit score, and they give the CCP a high approval rating not because they support Communism but because the CCP was responsible for incredibly high economic growth.

What high economic growth? From what I gathered, they achieved an ave. growth rate of 7 pct per annum across decades, one of the highest in the world, and literally lifted 800 million of their people out of poverty, and that after four failed economic programs that led to 40 million dead.

800 million people. That's almost three times the total population of the U.S. itself.

In short, the Chinese government isn't as strong as many think, and the Chinese not as complacent or even ignorant. And the only reason why the former remains in power is because the former want continued high economic growth. In which case, hawks can only hope that China fails economically. Then they'll have a real revolution.

Meanwhile, what is happening around them? Recently, the hawkish party in Taiwan lost heavily, and dovish Koumintang are taking over:

https://www.bangkokpost.com/world/2447015/taiwan-president-quits-party-post-after-local-election-losses

The Koumintang is characterized by conservatism and doing business with China instead of confrontation. Reminds of a former U.S. President? Interestingly enough, he had high approval ratings in several Asian countries, even higher than in his own country.

Similarly, many Asian countries want to maintain peace with China, are resisting influence from the U.S., even from the likes of "Hello, Hello, Thank You" Harris:

https://twitter.com/RNCResearch/status/1595203717489229824

by arguing that they want to remain neutral even on the Ukraine war.

Given that, do you think the neocons should poke the dragon harder? Or should mainstream media work harder on seeing China the same way they do Russia? That way, the hawks get they want and the simplistic narrative of the crazy SOB is maintained, right?

But what's the cost of that to the country that becomes the site of their proxy war? That's why I take this matter seriously.
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ralfy
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« Reply #684 on: November 28, 2022, 09:16:52 PM »

Could be. On the other hand, he does make some good points. He just drowns them in a one-sided argument. *shrugs* I know I am not wasting any of my time with his posts though if I can help it.

I'm still taken aback by the retreat from Kherson. While from a strategic point of view it makes sense from the Russian side to retreat from it, I thought because of its symbolic value (and that it was serving as a roadblock on the road to Crimea), Putin would pull a Stalin and decide the city had to be defended no matter what the cost. I've read the reports of Russia preparing defences up to 60km behind the current frontline and evacuating Crimea. With having visitors at work this week, I've been a bit out of touch with the news and only had time to skim through things.

On a side note, I wonder how this whole conflict will affect Russian plans in a wider context. There seemingly were plans on expanding the number of Russian bases on foreign soil by up to 50% in the immediate future (mostly in African countries). Will they have the resources to continue with these and will these countries still be willing to host them? This whole thing has been a rather heavy blow to their military prestige and those in power might just have several reasons to reconsider the benefits of such projects.

I wonder if Putin had just kept to slowly nibbling away at Ukrainian territory, would the west have stood up to him, even in the limited way they have so far? Did he have a Munich moment where he looked at his opposition and decided he had nothing to really fear from them? Did he really believe the Ukrainian people would greet his troops as liberators and foolishly assume their military forces would just roll over them? Had he taken them more seriously and put a number of troops equal to the task instead of a small percentage of what is required in place maybe he would have been able to take the entire country before anyone else could really do anything.

There seems to be something self-destructive in the human race where we allow people like this to rise to positions of power. No country is immune to getting "crazy SOB"s into power, indeed they seem to reach positions of power with alarming regularity and not just by revolutions. Oh well, that is a topic for another day.

More truckloads of aid donations from Lossiemouth have reached Poland on their way to Ukraine. Feels good to know we are doing at least something to help out. I wish we could do more.

Fine, here's a two-sided view.

Most Americans are decent, law-abiding people. So are most Europeans, Chinese, Russians, other Asians, etc.

What's the problem, then?

Decades ago, Kennan warned U.S. officials not to antagonize Russia. Why? Because Russia, like China, Ukraine, and many others are weak and need time to grow economically. They are also different from the West, but not in the way Gaub imagines. They're not about violence and death. Rather, they are nationalist and want to industrialize.

That's why Trump had high ratings even among Asians. The East Asian Miracle and the rise of not only the Asian "tiger" economies but even of countries like China, and now Vietnam and Thailand, the new "Detroit of Asia," employed similar policies as those espoused for MAGA.

But U.S. officials didn't listen. From Clinton onward, they not only enlarged NATO, they even tried pivots to the Middle East via Bush and to Asia via Obama. The latter two ended badly, with Iraq, Afghanistan, and others wrecked, and China continuing to grow stronger. Even the Philippines, the most fanatic U.S. supporter in the region (approval ratings for the U.S. and for U.S. Presidents regardless of party are higher in the Philippines than in the U.S. itself), after decades of U.S.-style neoliberalism, is now copying Asian neighbors: neutrality and focus on doing business.

Now, even U.S. hegemony in Taiwan is falling apart, with the fall of the hawks and the return of the Koumintang doves.

That's the wider context, and way beyond imagined views of a Russian empire that wants to build bases in Africa. Finally, for balance, why not see that in light of over 700 military bases and installations from what one former U.S. President considers the most warlike country in modern history?

I think at some point the average decent citizen will realize that: it's not a black-and-white world of good vs. bad guys but much more complicated.
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ralfy
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« Reply #685 on: November 28, 2022, 09:30:09 PM »

For me, the bottom line is Ukraine didn't invade Russia.  Ukraine wasn't GOING to invade Russia.  Ukraine hasn't invaded ANYONE in the last century that I know of.
Russia is not a democracy; Putin wields almost total power over Russia's foreign policy.
PUTIN made the decision to invade and take over Ukraine.  Putin sentenced thousands of Ukrainian soldiers and tens of thousands of Russian soldiers to their deaths, not to mention thousands of civilians as well.
Putin CHOSE to launch the largest European war since World War II.
He may or may not be a "crazy SOB," but he IS an evil man and a mass murderer.


This might help, together with my previous sources (which is a lot):

Error 404 (Not Found)!!1 Small | Large


The gist is that Ukraine has had a long history of changing sides, e.g., co-founder of the Soviet Union, then siding with the Nazis, then going back to the Allies when the Axis began to lose.

It's also at the crossroads of military powers, and in this case the U.S. with NATO allies acting as a shield, and Russia.

Like Ukraine, Russia was very weak, but after that its per capita income grew three times more. Ukraine, meanwhile, was caught between groups of pro-U.S. liberals, nationalists, ultra-nationalists, lefists, and pro-Russia conservatives. It ended up remaining economically weak (Malaysia and even Thailand are richer per capita) and was eventually manipulated by U.S. politicians that wanted anti-Russian political leaders, let the country became part of the U.S. shield (to protect the U.S.), and EU businessmen that wanted Ukraine to break from trade with Russia. And yet it looked like the West was only interested in dangling the NATO and EU carrot, making more demands from Ukraine as a condition for membership.

While that was taking place, officials that were responsible for policies to contain the Soviet Union through NATO and other means across the decades after WW2 began to warn U.S. political leaders that they must not force liberal agendas on Russia and even Ukraine because both are industrializing and need time to develop. Clinton, Bush, and others didn't listen.

This is likely the origin of that choice.

And now, those who remembered Kennan are explaining the same, but most don't want to listen. They want to maintain the "evil empire" narrative that Reagan started decades ago. Why? Because how else can one justify incredible and continued U.S. military spending that started against an Iron Curtain that no longer exists?

One more point: does this also explain the U.S. attitude towards China? Or the tepid response from most countries concerning calls for sanctions on Russia?
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ralfy
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« Reply #686 on: November 28, 2022, 09:41:05 PM »

Oh, but, Indy, the US MADE him do it! He had no choice! Why can't you see that???? The poor man had every option taken away by the evil West til....til he had nothing left he could do.  I feel so bad for Putin. As an American this is my lowest point of shame, all that blood on my hands.


It's not so much feeling bad for Putin but understanding that the U.S. did the same thing to many other countries:

https://sites.evergreen.edu/zoltan/interventions/

I'm guessing that the content of the link I shared above is known by many in countries that became sites of proxy wars, and that's not just Ukraine, but not known by the average American.

Hirch reported in Cultural Literacy that American students were asked to say something about at least the major wars that involved the U.S., i.e., the Revolutionary War, the Civil War, and the two World Wars. They could barely give the details about any of them, and it's probably worse now. I recall major surveys revealing that the average American adult can't point out a country that the U.S. invaded on a map, let alone his home state, or even things like the name of his current VP.

I suspect that even as they "stand with Ukraine" they can barely understand even the basic points recently raised in this thread other than the good guy-bad guy narrative.

Reminds me of those man-on-the-street videos where they ask teens basic questions. Obviously not scientific but may reflect what Hirsch said:

Error 404 (Not Found)!!1 Small | Large

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ralfy
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« Reply #687 on: November 28, 2022, 09:57:51 PM »

Final thoughts....

I see it all like this. If a home invader breaks into your neighbor's house and is trying to steal what's his and kill his family, you don't analyze what motivated the home invader, you help your neighbor out, especially if he has children affected b the invader's cruelty.

To excuse Putin by saying he was provoked is like blaming the victim of a date rape because of how she was dressed. There are lines one doesn't cross.

If the US has done things that are wrong, then two wrongs don't make what Russia did right, it makes Putin equally wrong and equally open to condemnation as a warmonger. So I condemn Putin's LATEST invasion as I've condemned all of them for the last almost twenty years. It is wrong and Putin is a corrupt, murderous dictator, the worst leader in Europe since Hitler.

And, ralfy, if you are serious in the points you've raised, then you're silly and have zero idea how to make an argument and no awareness of the setting and audience you're trying to reach. That's been your main failing, a tone deafness for this crowd. Although if as I suspect, you're having us all on by going to the depths of absurdity, then you're a hilarious genius. My hat goes off to you for being wiling to make yourself an ass in everyone's eyes for the sake of comedy.

And, to answer your question, no, I am not "senior CIA" just a stay at home Mom enjoying retirement and getting ready to turn forty-four, an age I find myself surprised to reach.

And actually while I'm thinking of "senior" CIA, the loftier the title someone holds in the CIA, the less important that person tends to be. Political appointees come and go and mostly get in the way of those with real influence. The real power is held by people you will never hear of, dear. In the CIA it can get a little like the mafia, loyalty given to figures within the agency, and the real work springing from that. Little lesson for you I'll toss in for free so you can find graphs and charts to counterpoint me and give us all a good chuckle. Really, you're a brilliant satirist.  Thumbup

Happy trails, everyone!

That analogy is too simplistic because the "you" who wants to help him out was the one taking advantage of him.

Interesting thing about lines not to be crossed: back in the early 1990s, the West assured Russia that they would not push one inch forward. The reason is commonsensical: the Soviet Union just fell apart. Russia, Ukraine, and others were being overwhelmed by high crime rates and oligarchs. In fact, Putin himself came to power because he was propped up by oligarchs, and that's the reason why he became rich in the first place.

The problem is that the West did not interfere with Russia, which is why it became not only wealthier but grew faster than Ukraine:

https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD?locations=UA-RU

Putin screwed the oligarchs and took over. Ukraine, overwhelmed by multiple contending groups, fell apart because its oligarchs were making deals with Westerners who wanted access to the country's natural resources, while U.S. officials were meeting with pro-U.S. Ukrainian officials in order to find ways to get rid of pro-Russian counterparts. At the same time, nationalists continued to harrass Russians that dominated the eastern portions of the country while the West kept dangling the NATO and EU membership carrots while expanding NATO control of the region. And NATO, which once acted to counter a now-extinct Soviet Union, was now put in place to act as a shield to protect the U.S. against a now imagined new Soviet empire.

Finally, what figures within the agency and "real work" about the CIA are you talking about?

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ralfy
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« Reply #688 on: November 28, 2022, 09:59:53 PM »


Ralfy brings up things that happened a lifetime or a century ago to excuse pooty. Well if you want to do that one can bring up what happened when Hitler was allowed to annnex countries and territories long ago without resistance to justify stopping poots now, especially after he stole Crimea a few years back.

If Kennan is right, the problem started in the late 1990s. If you're a youngster, then that's certainly a lifetime, but not a century.

BTW, subsequent warnings following Kennan were also made in 2004 and 2014. I'll share them in the future. That will be followed by some interesting points about Crimea.
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indianasmith
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« Reply #689 on: November 28, 2022, 10:02:10 PM »

Ukraine wasn't killing any Russians until Russia invaded Ukraine.
Rationalize it all you want, RUSSIA IS THE AGGRESSOR HERE, and Russia became the aggressor because PUTIN chose to make it so.
The blood of this war is on his hands above all.
Some people are just evil.
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