ISRAEL AND PALESTINE: WHAT DO YOU THINK?

[RCMerchant]

Personally, I think we're supporting the wrong side. Why the hell won't Israel leave what little land the Palestinians have alone?

[ER]

I not only support Israel in theory, I've bought Israeli bonds to back up that sentiment, because in a conflict between the civilized and those whose conduct has been barbarous, a good person must support the defense of civilization.

Some facts few people seem to know....

After Israel's withdraw from Gaza in 2007, amid the forcible removal of nearly 10,000 Jews who had resided there, the US and other nations poured humanitarian aid into Gaza, which was rapidly stolen by Hamas to use for the purchase of weapons, and as we now see revealed, the construction of more than three-hundred miles of tunnels built for the sole purpose of carrying out murderous raids into Israel, even as the leaders of Hamas used the same stolen funds to live lives of luxury in Qatar, leaving the people of Gaza to stave.

Throughout the 2010s Hamas was the third largest purchaser of Russian weapons on the planet, hardly betraying peaceful intentions, and it broke every treaty that was made with Israel, and by some counts has tortured and murdered no less than 8,000 Gazans since it took over there after Israel's pullout. A CIA report, available online, shows this Hamas' leadership attempted to buy illegal weapons of mass destruction from former Baathist elements within Iraq in 2007, under the slogan, "Let's finish gassing the Jews."

In contrast to the tactics Hamas uses on its own people and on Israelis alike, Israel has since its inception provided full citizenship to Arabs and Palestinians, indeed people of all races and faiths, provided them with the same civil rights Jews enjoy, including freedom to vote, worship, and peacefully assemble, and unlike even the US, has written sexual equality into its constitution. In response, Israel has been repeatedly attacked over the last nearly eighty years by its neighbors, and by insurgent pro-Islamist forces from within. It has been condemned internationally by university students who claim to stand up for the same human rights Israel champions, but which Hamas stomps on. While Israel has gone to great lengths in every war it has fought to minimize civilian casualties, Hamas baked Jewish babies in ovens in 2023, and in at least one documented instance, made a mother watch her child die that way, as she was gang raped.

Those are the people insane popular opinion seems to support, even in the United States, a nation which, by the way, Hamas has written into its charter that it must remain at "perpetual war" against, meaning Hamas regards all Americans as their enemies and sees it as lawful in this state of war to kill at will.

Gazans invaded Israel, it must be remembered, not the other way around, and did so after Israel ceded Gaza to Palestinians, and left it alone except for retaliatory acts after Gaza was so often used as s staging ground for terrorism against Israel.

Gaza, unoccupied by Israel for nearly a generation has long been used for these incursions into Israel, with these incidents increasing since Israel pulled out of Gaza seventeen years ago, with last fall's mass murder of Israeli men, women, and children being the most brutal example of Hamas' would-be campaign of genocide against Israelis.

Hamas' war cry of "From the river to the sea" a motto sadly adopted by far too many benighted US college students, essentially spells out the eradication of the Jewish state in its entirety, as it lies, if one notices, between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea. Israel has not once sought any such policy of eradication against any nation, or any people, and is clearly occupying the moral position, as it has since 1948. It is a democracy in a region of dictatorships, and deserves the support of good people everywhere. Israelis contribute to the world in so many good ways, far beyond their numbers, and have one of the most beneficial policies of humanitarian aid of any country in the world, despite how little the media may cover it. After the Indonesian tsunami of the early '00s Israel gave its entirely Muslim victims nearly a hundred million dollars in aid.

Israel should be supported, not condemned. It's the good guy here.

I'm not a fan of Bill Maher, but he is exactly right here in his views on Islamists ethnic-cleaning of Christians and Jews in their hegemony, and of how unlike other people, Palestinians just can't quit beating a dead horse:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KP-CRXROorw

[RCMerchant]

I don't agree. But, to each his own.

[Paquita]

From my understanding, Palestine only existed as a set land for a short period in the 1900s.  Palestinians are no different racially or ethnically than most middle-eastern Muslims/Arabs. – I could be wrong about this because the history is very complex.  However, I am certain Israel has existed as the home of the Jews, both religious and ethnic, for thousands of years.  There are 40+ Muslim-run or Muslim majority countries across the middle east and Africa.  There is one Israel, which is about the size of the state of New Hampshire, and the only country Jews have to call home and I think they deserve to keep it.

Orthodox Islam (the religious texts, not necessarily all Muslims) is rooted in deep hate for Jews and Christians, and is the catalyst for the brutal terrorist groups that arise in those countries.  Hamas is a terrorist group that not only seeks to harm Jews but encourages the lives of Gazans to be riddled with strife and cruelty which is blamed on the Jews to stir up hate and aggression amongst the people.  Think of how people raise fighting dogs – that's what Hamas is doing to their people.  I don't mean for that to be taken as I am comparing Gazans to dogs, just to illustrate the thought-process behind how Hamas governs Gaza.  They believe life begins at death, those that die in conflict against Jews, even if killed by their own side, including women and children, would be considered martyrs and greatly rewarded in death.   They have no incentive to protect the people, the people have no incentive to protect themselves.  The more miserable their life is, the more enticing death is.     

So in short, Hamas hate the Jews, have no claim to their land, but conquering it would be the biggest F-You to the Jews so they will stop at nothing to do it.  Right now, they are weaponizing the west's sensitivities and affinity for tolerance and people are playing right into it.  This is how evil works.   

[Rev. Powell]

I don't agree. But, to each his own.

I love this response. 

As for the question, I don't doubt that Israel has a right to defend itself, but as a pragmatist I have strong doubts that its current actions will make it much safer in the future, and I don't think it's worth the loss of innocent lives.

[Trevor]

Our government here cares more about what is happening an ocean away than what is happening in this country. This once prosperous nation is dying because of their incompetence, greed and corruption and they choose to take Israel to the International Court of Justice: what a bloody cheek 😳😝

[Rev. Powell]

Nina Paley's recap of the region's history is worth watching: https://youtu.be/8tIdCsMufIY?si=HPpa2VC19DZON-ZO

[indianasmith]

While I think the Israelis deserve better leadership that Netanyahu, the truth is that Hamas is a brutal terrorist organization that hides behind Palestinian civilians.  In every conflict with Israel, Hamas has done all it could to not only kill as many Jews as possible, but to maximize civilian casualties  among the Palestinian population so they can blame them on Israel.

Let's be honest:  If Israel wanted to commit genocide, there would be no Palestinians left.  The Israelis have more than enough firepower to eradicate every single Palestinian if they wanted to.  What they want is TO BE LEFT ALONE.

What Hamas wants is to kill every Jew in Israel, and elsewhere.  And their leaders live in luxury far, far from Gaza, while sending earnest young jihadists to earn a place in paradise by murdering Jews and uncooperative Palestinians.

It grieves me that so many idealistic young Westerners parrot Hamas propaganda, championing people who would slit their throats given half the chance.

And to those calling for a cease-fire - there was a cease-fire in effect on Oct. 7 of last year. You see what Hamas did with it.

[lester1/2jr]

First, there's a REASON this is such an enduring conflict. The nation of Israel is to Jews what Christ is to Christians and the Quran is to Muslims. It's the central thing. It's not my thing, but it's a thing.

At the same time... the area had been mostly non Jewish indigenous and Arab for the 18 centuries prior to Zionism (late 19th century) and that's a bit of a precedent. so there you go

https://aldeilis.net/english/the-founding-of-jerusalem/ 

"The Palestinian Arabs, descendants of the Caananites and the Philistines (Chapter 1) remained and constituted the main element of the population of Jerusalem from the second until the twentieth centuries. They survived all subsequent conquests, massacres and vicissitudes. More than once, they changed their religion, adopting the religion of the conquerors. Pagans originally, they were converted to Christianity and many, though not all, accepted Islam after the Moslem Arab conquest of Jerusalem in the seventh century."

My view? Jews can live anywhere in the world. 99% of anti semetism is Arab immigrants who would rather live in the middle east lashing out at western Jews. Where can Palestinians go? They are basically lab rats for weirdo war tech stuff Israel gets from China or Silicon valley or some other Hellscape.

[ER]

^ Israel sells weapons to China, not the other way around, and Israel should not be selling arms to China at all in my view. Israel is also a rival to Silicon Valley, not primarily its client.

I do agree about immigrants spreading anti-Semitism in western Europe, something  that's underreported and grimly troubling as the high birth rate among Moslems will see native Europeans supplanted within this century. (i.e. Muhammad is the number one name for boys born in Galway, Ireland right now.)

I don't know if you've been to Paris but last time I was there we were advised which districts to stay out of for our own safety and invariably they were those where Moslem immigrants had displaced others. There's a lot of anti-Jewish violence in France today, and while white supremacists get blamed, no doubt in some cases rightly, it's by far more commonly carried out by Moslems.

Immigration policies should be tempered with wisdom as well as mercy.

And, yes, what is today Israel was created from a land from which Jews were largely extirpated, and people
native to the region did lose their land in 1948, something not uncommon on the world stage as borders shift, though after five generations the  displaced and the displacers are both dead, and Palestinian policy would serve Palestinians better if it was more reflective of reality.

[RCMerchant]

Whatever the case may be, Israel right now are killing women and children in Gaza- they are not Hamas.

"Netanyahu made his closeness to Donald Trump, a personal friend since the 1980s, central to his political appeal in Israel from 2016. During Trump's presidency, the United States recognized Jerusalem as the capital of Israel, recognized Israeli sovereignty over the Golan Heights, and brokered the Abraham Accords, a series of normalization agreements between Israel and various Arab states. Netanyahu has faced international criticism over his decades-long policy as prime minister of expanding Israeli settlements in the occupied West Bank, deemed illegal under international law. In 2019, Netanyahu was indicted on charges of breach of trust, bribery, and fraud, following a three-year investigation, due to which he relinquished all his ministerial posts, except for the position of prime minister."

[lester1/2jr]

ER- Israel would love it if all of Gaza, Syria and Lebanon were sent to Europe. especially fighting age males.

RC- there is a leadership vacuum in the world right now. Ukraine/ Russia and Gaza/ Israel have long since become just pointless deaths not headed to any resolution.

As an aside, it's crazy that Israel replaced Ukraine so thoroughly in Washington. similar to How Iraq took attention from Afghanistan.

DC loves having two wars at once and to gradually ignore the first one in favor of the second.

[indianasmith]

About 1/4 of the rockets fired by Hamas fall short and kill Palestinians instead.  Those deaths are always blamed on Israel.
Hamas is known for killing civilians not sufficiently cooperative for their taste, as well as any Palestinian Christians they can get their hands on - and then blaming it on Israel.
Hamas also places its military facilities among, under, or on top of places where civilians gather - hospitals, schools, bus stations, etc.
There is literally no way to strike at Hamas without incurring civilian casualties, because that is HOW Hamas gets earnest young liberals all over the world to hail them as freedom fighters and condemn Israelis as genocidal war criminals.
And the Western media rarely points out these details, instead just saying "300 Palestinian civilians died in Israeli bombings today" when the truth is much more complex.
The world would be a better place if every single member of Hamas suffered spontaneous cranial detonation, starting with those senior leaders who live in luxurious exile paid for by international aid sent to the Palestinian people.

[lester1/2jr]

What the Israel- Palestine conflict IS is there were people living in the area and other people came from Europe and later other places and displaced them.

Random moments in the subsequent or current history are not what the conflict is about. There was an Israel Palestine conflict before the group known as Hamas existed. Many of us are old enough to remember when it was called the Arab Israeli conflict and Yassir Arafat was the bad guy.

The Palestinians never agreed to be displaced by the movement known as Zionism. so what should be done?

[RCMerchant]

For once I agree with Lester.