A focus on Zappa por le Squish . . .

[peter johnson]

"I'm glad Zappa had a little TV show, but I can't accept that anyone who would name his children Moon Unit & Dweezil is an intellectual . . ."
Well, jimminy cricket, Squishy, you certainly do come across as someone who admires intellect per se, and I've genuinely enjoyed a lot of the comments you've made about bad movies over the years, but here you're being simply condescending and demonstrating embarrassing ignorance.  The "little TV show" you refer to (on Financial News Network/my error) had deep conversations with Nobel Prize winning economists who debated serious topics with Zappa re. the course of Western Civilization.  The comments you make about how Zappa names his children are almost verbatim what Jimmy Swaggert had to say about him 'round 1984 or so.
" . . . a few East European countries . . ."  um, no, in fact Zappa is generally recognized as a true champion of human freedom from Stettin in the Adriatic to Kosovo on the Baltic.   He gave inspiration and determination to carry on to literally millions of freedom-seeking individuals.  Drop by www.frankzappa.com & check out the recordings of his first triumpant entry into Prague.  This is not just another rock star.   The best analyses of his thought & interviews/articles on his take on Democracy and political freedom are, sadly, still not translated from the original German, Swedish, and Russian.  It is good to look at "The Negative Dialectics of Poodle Play"(1993/St. Martin's/Griffin) by Ben Watson, to get a glimpse of this -- also "The Real Frank Zappa Book" by himself.
I don't really blame you for making the common mistake in the cultural West that Zappa was only a man who wrote silly songs.  He was embraced by & still revered by the Egard Varese family, Nobel Prize winner Vaclav Havel, philosopher Nicholas Slonimsky, conductor Pierre Boulez, philosopher Andres Molich Zebhauser, and composer & conductor Kent Nagano. He was also, incidentally, named as honorary Secretary of State in Ohio in 1983 for his relentless work on voter registration.  Now, I have no doubt that you are a very smart guy, but I think you may be unwittingly denying yourself some pleasure here in pondering the same issues pondered by Zappa and those who revere him.  Please don't make the easy error of dismissing this guy out-of-hand because he looks funny or does or says or likes odd things -- Good Lord, man, that's 90% of us here on this-here website !!!
It is a funny thing that, as Jesus observed, a prophet is not without honor, save in his own country & by his own people.  The British singer/composer Kevin Coyne is in much the same state, as he had to move to Austria to be properly appreciated.
Yours in a common bond --
peter johnson

[peter johnson]

Well, yes, all the "plain brown wrapper" stuff, lableing of concerts, etc. etc. that you name as the goals of Tipper & co., that they did not succeed in putting in place,  ARE censorship.  Yep, they are.  They are devices that are placed by an outside authority to limit and monitor access to forms of artistic expression.  Tipper was so upset by Zappa's opposition to her censorship that she did a hands-on effort to block any sort of political appointment for Zappa, either foreign or domestic, despite the huge demand for his presence in Europe by the newly-freed East.
In Europe, hard-core porn, and political/philosophical literature, is sold on shelves side by side with children's books.  Cigarette and beer/booze machines are freely accessable on any & every streetcorner to anyone with a 5-euro coin.  Full-frontal nudity has been a mainstay of the BBC since 1972.  Somehow, despite all this, Armegeddon has escaped the West.
peter johnson

[J.R.]

But that's Europe, they're friggin' weird.

I consider Tipper an unholy messenger of the Fallen Angel. First of all, Tipper?! What the crap kind of goofy name is Tipper?! She has nude photos of herself all over the house and did you see that kiss at the DNC? Ew! Yech! Puke! I found out she plays drums. Suddenly being a drummer is not cool at all.

[Squishy]

Nothing personal, Peter, honestly--but I don't care about Frank Zappa that much. I just...don't.

Actually, three of those four things insisted upon by "Tipper & Co." have come to be, besides concert ratings (to my knowledge). No, those things are not censorship. The content is unchanged, and all adults can access it if and whenever they wish. There is no limitation to, or monitoring of, access--unless someone's watching the purchase. (Hell, there's more of that when you log on to the Internet than when you buy a record at a store.) Denying children access to material deemed unsuitable by their community is not censorship by any means.

(Tipper actually had such supreme power as to block foreign political appointments? Wow!!! I had no idea. Too bad she couldn't just appoint her husband into office...)

Jimmy Swaggart and I could both look at a clear sky and see blue. As long as they weren't color-blind, so could Gandhi, Jimmy Stewart, Hitler, Beck, Winston Churchill, Carrot Top, Osama Bin Laden, Newt Gingrich, Tangerine Dream, Tony Blair, a wino in the gutter, David Allen Grier, and the guy in the Barney suit. It doesn't make us soulmates or kindred spirits or anything else. We just see what's before our eyes. (Nice try at character assassination, though.)

Hardcore nudity may not bring about armageddon, but it's up to a community to decide if it may be displayed next to children's books. And frankly, putting uncovered whacking material within reach of little kids isn't necessarily a sign of intellectual sophistication, whether Europeans do it or not. (I've been around a little of western Europe; Britain, Norway--and Japan, which is often criticized for its adult material--and not once did I see hardcore porn mixed with kid's books or videos. There are still limits, and those limits remain a subject of regular debate.)

(J.R.: It's pretty funny coming from a guy who regularly whines about how I politicize everything, but your tirade could've come from the desk of the people who write Rush Limbaugh's ignorant trash for him. Tipper Gore has nude photos all over the house? Not that it's anyone's business, but I can't find a reference--maybe you can help. Or were you thinking of "Dr. Laura?"  Or were you talking about your house?)

[Dano]

I've heard some of these things about Zappa, but I confess I tended to have the same impression Squishy did.  But the Vaclav Havel endorsement is good enough for me.  I have some close friends in the CR and have been there several times.  I've seen Havel twice.  Once he spoke right after Bill Clinton.

It was like watching Tiny Tim open for Hendrix.

Nevertheless, invoking Zappa to condemn Tipper is arguing from authority -- not a great form of argument.  I don't think what Tipper did was technically censorship, but it was done in the same spirit.  I also think if it had been Nancy Reagan or Barbara Bush who led that campaign, the Democrats and the media (and, let's be honest, Squishy) would STILL be bashing Republicans over the head about it.  Instead it is largely just forgotten.

Sort of off topic - I laughed my ass off today watching Eminem speak out against music piracy.  That's great Slim Shady, rape a girl, beat a fag... just respect an artist's right to profit from his intellectual property.  Hilarious.

[J.R.]

There was a short presentation of the Gore family at the 2000 DNC, and Tipper, an avid photographer, has nude pictures of herself on the wall. This was on live TV (not "telly"). And this topic started out political; you turn everything into a leftist rant.

[Dano]

J.R. I have to ask who cares what the Gores have on their wall?  As long as WE don't have to look at Tipper's ass, I can't see why it should bother us.

[Squishy]

Because everything has to become a "rightist rant." See, that's okay.

I'm sorry if my use of the word "telly" makes you pee your underoos, but--telly telly telly telly telly. Try and stop me.

[peter johnson]

Why are you so sensitive?  
Stoppit!  Stoppit, I say!!
(PS:  Mr. Dano -- I was not invoking Zappa to argue from authority.  I was only trying to show someone -- Herr Squish -- that there was more to Zappa than meets the eye/ear.  That's all -- comprez vous?  No blood/no foul)
Squishy, okay okay okay so you don't "care" about Zappa.  Great.  All I was trying to show you was that you were underestimating him & that you really didn't know all that much about him.  That's all.  That's all.  I promise.
What on Earth do you mean by "character assasination"?  I don't get it . . .
Perhaps you enjoy the sound of your own voice too much -- n'cest pas?
peter johnson

[peter johnson]

PS:  Also, yes, yes, yes indeed, Tipper did in fact have power to not only preside over the Senate Censorship hearing on the recording industry, but did in fact have power to influence her husband -- Majority Leader at the time -- to block political appointments & did so.  This is not even a political secret.  It happened.
If you know nothing about a topic, it's perfectly acceptable, but to go on and on and on about something of which you are willfully -- by your own admission "you don't care about Zappa -- you don't" -- ignorant, well that's just plain annoying.
This is not character assasination.  It is observation.  There is a difference.
* * * * *
As I've said before, I do like and admire some of the observations and remarks you've made in the past re. things you obviously know about.  I would never presume to pretend authority on the Fanco-Prussian War, for example.  Please don't pretend authority on events in time that you aren't fully up on -- Thankyou --
With Respect --
peter johnson

[Dano]

(PS: Mr. Dano -- I was not invoking Zappa to argue from authority. I was only trying to show someone -- Herr Squish -- that there was more to Zappa than meets the eye/ear. That's all -- comprez vous? No blood/no foul)

*****  No.  No blood, no foul.  But someone in this thread (I don't have time to look it up), did talk about how Zappa slammed Tipper on the Hill as if that fact alone made her wrong.  That's what I was referring to.

[Squishy]

"What on Earth do you mean by "character assasination"? I don't get it . . .
Perhaps you enjoy the sound of your own voice too much -- n'cest pas?
peter johnson"

...from someone who signs his name to the end of every post. No, if I enjoyed the sound of my own voice, I'd be talking a lot more.

Please, pj, the "innocent" act doesn't work for anyone else here, why do you think you're pulling it off? You're trying to act sweet and insult people in the same sentence. You tried to paint me into the same corner as Jimmy Swaggart, remember? THAT character assassination.

My initial point about Zappa, in regards to this thread's subject, was that his testimony about the committee's "censorship" was reactionary to the point of irrelevance. It was--as we've already argued about--NOT censorship by any reasonable definition of the term. His life outside the senate hearings was equally irrelevant to that thread.

At no point did I go "on and on" about Zappa. You brought him up; I dismissed him; you brought him up again; I blew him off; you created a new thread about him in order to lecture me, compare me to a parochial televangelist, and call me ignorant.

Tell you what, let's make a deal; don't try to paint printed lyrics and opaque wrappers as censorship, and I won't mention Zappa ever again.

Dano: The wife of James Baker--Republican--was on that committee, too. Tipper got the most attention simply because she was a Democrat, and they're all supposed to be Godless commies who want to bring about the end of society, so everyone freaked out when Liberals began accusing her of "censorship." Do your research.

[peter johnson]

Quite right.  I was wrong to try to be polite.  Okay, so you're determined to intentionally miss the point & take umbrage with me where none was intended.  Poor poor little Jason "Squishy" Patrick clone, eager to be offended & mewing for attention.
You're simply a moron.
Happy now?
Zappa testified along with other members of the recording industry over a period of several weeks.   The testimonies went back and forth, with different parties having their say in a mostly thoughtful manner. The arguments were long and protracted and went to the heart of what is meant by "censorship" per se. It was an interesting example of democracy in action & had interesting claims and counter-claims, but you're not as interested in that as you are in being right, are you?
Also, I find you profoundly odd in that you find my signing off with my name to be worthy of note.  Jesus Christ, you flaming git, you get weird about "telly" & your own use of Anglicisms & people's objections to them!!  Drag yourself away from the mirror for once & acknowledge that everyone on this bloody board has their own unique style/way of signing off here.
I pointed out that you had raised the same objection -- coincidentally enough -- that had been raised by Jimmy Swaggert, NOT as any attempt at "character assasination", you easily-offended pile of badger-droppings, but to show that perhaps you could consider there to be a sort of ad hominem flaw in your thinking: eg, it's probably not a very bright thing to do to judge the content of a man's mind by what he names his children.  I HOPED that my invoking of other names associated with the man that you may have heard of or read may have inspired you to pause & reflect & not simply dismiss Zappa out of hand.
signed
peter johnson, who has the courage to use his own name & not go by the appellation "squishy", as in something found in ones underoos, to borrow a cute image.
and oh:   zappa zappa zappa zappa.  Tipper Gore is a censor.
Nanny-nanny boo boo/Yar boo sucks to you
Now, say goodnight, Gracie . . .

[Squishy]

...and the idiot finally drops the mask. Thank you for that amazingly childish display. You're dismissed.

[Dano]

pj wrote:  Poor poor little Jason "Squishy" Patrick clone, eager to be offended & mewing for attention.
Squishy wrote:  (All together now: "Gee, I have no idea what you mean by that!! Heavens!!"--almost as convincing as Josh's "evil cousin" routine.)

pj wrote:  You're simply a moron.
Squishy wrote:  ...to show you how moronic it is to follow me around the board...

pj wrote:  you easily-offended pile of badger-droppings
Squishy wrote:  That plays into idiots' "persecuted speaker of truth" complex.

pj wrote:  Drag yourself away from the mirror for once & acknowledge that everyone on this bloody board has their own unique style/way of signing off here.
Squishy wrote:  (I hope the two of you realize that, in fact, the Internet is not limited to the continental United States and people who use the word "telly" everyday might also come here...

pj wrote:  ....go by the appellation "squishy", as in something found in ones underoos, to borrow a cute image.
Squishy wrote:  I just poke at them until they run off crying "blind blind blah blah blawaaaah"...again.

pj wrote:  Now, say goodnight, Gracie . . .
Squishy wrote:  You're dismissed.

Squishy to pj:  Thank you for that amazingly childish display.

Just observing.  
And peter, for the last time, I had NO OBJECTIONS to Squishy's Anglicanisms!!!  Cheers, mate.