What Happened Last Week & Yesterday...

[Ash]

I'm sure by now all of you here in America know about the crazy, psychotic (if that's what he or she is) sniper in and around Washington D.C. who's been taking innocent people out with a high powered rifle.  These are extremely unfortunate events and rest assured, when they catch the perpetrator/s, they will most definitely swing for what they have done.  You have to wonder what the hell is going on inside the mind or minds of the sick bastard/s who is/are doing this.  I used the slash in the previous sentences because the authorities think there may be more than 1 person at work here.  A 13 year old boy was shot yesterday.  Sick man...very sick.  This individual has absolutely no reguard for human life as we know it and must be put to death if caught.  My point for bringing this up is that it sounds like something straight from a horror or thriller novel.  If a book or movie were to be made about this (which I'm sure it will), I think it would be similar to Red Dragon, focusing on how and why the killer  became what they are and why they did what they did and the subsequent investigation and efforts to track them down.  The police speculate that the killer may have gone through some recent serious trauma like the death of someone close to them or a breakup or divorce and is also subconscionsly desiring a confrontation with the authorities.  Either way, I feel nothing but pity for the victims and their families and my heart goes out to them.  Call me old fashioned and cruel if you must but I feel that they should bring back public hangings or even the guillotine to make an example of people who commit particularly heinous crimes like this.  Making their excecution televised for all to see would be a hardcore deterrant.  The gas chamber or lethal injection is too clean and easy.  With all of the sick f**ks in this country like what we're faced with right now walking around, we need to scare them.  Alas, I know that this is just a pipe dream but that is my opinion.  May the person or persons who have comitted these awful crimes burn in Hell for all eternity.  (PLEASE READ MY NEXT POST BEFORE MAKING A POST OF YOUR OWN...IT'S IMPORTANT)

[Ash]

One other important thing I want to mention is that I'M NOT TRYING TO START A FLAME WAR ON THE DEATH PENALTY.  Please do not go there.  Some of you are for it and some of you are not.  I am enraged by these events and am simply voicing my opinion while trying to intertwine the idea of books and movies in with it and stay true to the tradition of this site.  Please try to keep your responses in that vein (books & movies etc...).  I know that some of you will be very angry and disagree with me on this.  Please do not let this post get out of hand like the "policy on Iraq" thread I started did.  I want what you want....to see the killer or killers caught and brought to justice.  DEAL??

[Flangepart]

While i do accept the concept of the death penalty, and believe it has a place, i think i understand the reason some do not like it.
....As imperfect beings, we fear not only death, but an early, unjustified death. And our awareness of human history makes it easy to see why.
....I caught a bit somewere on the news, where an Italian Reporter was harrassing a texan offical (I think harrassing is the right word in this instance) about the Death Penalty. The reporter was trying to make the Texan understand how much Europe disowns the D. P as punishment. The texan would have none of it. He told him, what Europe wants to do is their busness, but Texas is not Europe.
....Both men were confident of thier respective views, so it was another instance where sincerity was pertinant to the issue, only in the personal, subjective sense.
....The power of life and death is part of the power all humans have. We who do not commit murder ( A word i believe only applys to fellow humans), when we realise it is wrong. Not just a fear of punishment....but an acceptance that violence should never be a prefered way to get what we want. All law has to be important to each individual person, or it is not obayed.
....We all know murder is wrong. This killer has found some excuse to believe its not a crime. He has put himself above the law of the land. All evil is selfishness, it just a matter of excuse.
....I'd like Nevell's opinion on this, as his view is formed from his Spanish heritage. The history of Spain would color his opinion, as my American heritage does mine. I realy just qurious.
....Hummm...a lot to think about with this one. Still....lets avoid flameing and personal abuse, this time. Andrew is a gentlman, and we should follow his example. I don't like "Crossfire" because yelling solves nothing. Lets be grown ups this time, guys. You can do it. If i can begin to do it, you can!

[Chadzilla]

Yeah, the Death Penalty is hard sell to some.  I'm not comfortable with it, but I do feel it is justified in certain types of crimes.  If the transgression is bad enough, yeah I believe a person can forfeit the 'right' to live.  Is a biological function a right?  Mmmm.

Anyho, in the intellectual literary paper that is the Sunday Parade section, crime novelist/children's attorney Andrew Vachess discussed the nature of evil.  Just because someone commits and evil deed does not make that person evil.  I do not believe that Andrea Yates is evil, nor do I think that her malady is, as I read one commentator say, completely fictional.  She is obviously mentally ill.  Vachess put forth that it was the motivations that lead to the comission of an act that hold the vital clue.  If a person truly ENJOYS the trespasses they are committing, then yes, they are evil.  If they are driven to do things simply to survive, no.  One of his references was a mother that rented her children to child pornographers.  Ew.

Not much I can add to that. But I could not pull the switch, I can tell you that.

[Squishy]

While I believe death is a just fate for a number of crimes, I cannot support the "Death Penalty" for these reasons:

--Once implemented, it immediately becomes a political tool, and subsequently unfairly executed. In some countries, it is used to keep the oppressed populace in check; in others, innocent people will be hastily killed to create the pretense of justice and civility. Politicians who brag about the rate at which their state executes people one moment will turn around and innocently claim they're just carrying out "the people's will" the next--all depending on whether supporting the Death Penalty is a political advantage or liability at that moment. They don't give a damn about actual guilt or innocence.

--It's WAY too easy to convict the innocent, as proven by the regular revelation that people who have spent decades on Death Row are, in fact, not guilty. Had these people been slaughtered as swiftly as many would have liked, there would have been no way to even attempt to make amends or find the true guilty party, and we--convinced the system worked--would continue to kill more innocent people.

--They're going to die anyway. If Christians are right, the guilty will get what's coming in the long run. If they're wrong, it's harsher punishment to keep them caged for the rest of their lives. (The way we handle prisons--where gangs, rapes, and corruption are allowed free reign, and Meatloaf Tuesday was once declared "cruel and unusual punishment" by a judge--is a whole other debate.)

--It's often said that it's more expensive to kill a prisoner than keep him alive. I don't have any figures to back that up, but if it's true, it's yet another (albeit minor) reason to oppose the Death Penalty.

[J.R.]

I say death is too pleasant for some crimes. Serial rapist/murderers, terrorists, murderer/cannibals, child killers, put them all to non-stop hard labor. On the other hand, if the death penalty is used, why not make it fitting, based on the accused's crime? They should have put McVeigh in a condemned building and blown it up.

[Chadzilla]

Squishy wrote:
>
> While I believe death is a just fate for a number of crimes,
> I cannot support the "Death Penalty" for these reasons:
>
> --Once implemented, it immediately becomes a political tool,
> and subsequently unfairly executed. In some countries, it is
> used to keep the oppressed populace in check; in others,
> innocent people will be hastily killed to create the pretense
> of justice and civility. Politicians who brag about the rate
> at which their state executes people one moment will turn
> around and innocently claim they're just carrying out "the
> people's will" the next--all depending on whether supporting
> the Death Penalty is a political advantage or liability at
> that moment. They don't give a damn about actual guilt or
> innocence.
>

Agreed across the board, which why I am uncomfortable with it.

> --It's WAY too easy to convict the innocent, as proven by the
> regular revelation that people who have spent decades on
> Death Row are, in fact, not guilty. Had these people been
> slaughtered as swiftly as many would have liked, there would
> have been no way to even attempt to make amends or find the
> true guilty party, and we--convinced the system worked--would
> continue to kill more innocent people.
>

This is very, very true and another reason I think that the Penalty should not be handed down often...it should only be used in the most heinous of transgressions, if at all.
 
> --They're going to die anyway. If Christians are right, the
> guilty will get what's coming in the long run. If they're
> wrong, it's harsher punishment to keep them caged for the
> rest of their lives. (The way we handle prisons--where gangs,
> rapes, and corruption are allowed free reign, and Meatloaf
> Tuesday was once declared "cruel and unusual punishment" by a
> judge--is a whole other debate.)

Our jails are actually a lot better than others in the world, but nowhere as near could as Canadas (I'm one of those bleeding hearts that urges working our prisoners, educating them, etc.)
>
> --It's often said that it's more expensive to kill a prisoner
> than keep him alive. I don't have any figures to back that
> up, but if it's true, it's yet another (albeit minor) reason
> to oppose the Death Penalty.

That is true, the costs of number of appeals and court fees, etc.  In the long run, it is more cost effective to just keep 'em alive.

[raj]

Chadzilla wrote:
>
> Squishy wrote:
> >
> > While I believe death is a just fate for a number of crimes,
> > I cannot support the "Death Penalty" for these reasons:
> >
> > --Once implemented, it immediately becomes a political tool,
> > and subsequently unfairly executed. In some countries, it is
> > used to keep the oppressed populace in check;

snipped for space

> > They don't give a damn about actual guilt or
> > innocence.
> >
>
> Agreed across the board, which why I am uncomfortable with it.

Of course, repressive regimes also lock up political prisoners for years, not just execute them (Vaclev Havel, in the former Czechoslovakia).  And mistakes/indifference happen here, such as for Ruben "Hurricane" Carter.

Still, there are district attorneys who are politically ambitious, and want conviction at almost any price, just to further their own careers.  Rudy Guliani (not that I'm questioning his prosections, I think he did a good job going after the mob) got to further his career without the death penalty.

> > --It's WAY too easy to convict the innocent, as proven by the
> > regular revelation that people who have spent decades on
> > Death Row are, in fact, not guilty.

more snippage

> This is very, very true and another reason I think that the
> Penalty should not be handed down often...it should only be
> used in the most heinous of transgressions, if at all.

> > --It's often said that it's more expensive to kill a prisoner
> > than keep him alive.

yet more snippage

> That is true, the costs of number of appeals and court fees,
> etc.  In the long run, it is more cost effective to just keep
> 'em alive.

I actually think the cost involved in executing someone says something good about this country.  We actually give a damn, and want to make sure that the condemned did commit the crime (by "we" I mean certain segments which challenge the court system.)

Would we spend all those resources, and ensure that an innocent man was sprung from jail, if he was "only" sentenced to life without parole?

I am ambivelant about the death penalty, but I think it should only be used in cases where, um, we've got the defendant dead to rights.  Jeffrey Dahmer, John Wayne Gacy (you've got multiple dead bodies in your house, you're guilty.)  OJ Simpson, although I'd have been confortable with a conviction (his story kept changing too much for me) falls short.

[Neville]

Gun control doesn't sound that stupid now, does it?

[FishStik]

He is just like the sniper from Dirty Harry. He leaves taunting notes behind to the cops and he shot a 13 boy (in dirty harry he killed a teenaged girl). This man is sick, and the cop who finds him should kill him just like dirty harry did.

[Chadzilla]

Zodiac lives.

[Flangepart]

Gun Control is a waste of time, Neville.
....The use of a wepon is the resault of human desire. To use it on people is a choice. And, remember.....avoiding that fact is dehumanising.
....Those who want to "Just take  away all the wepons" are Materialist. They see people as simple, identical units. We are not. But they can't accept the complexity that is humanity. So, they go for the easiest concept they can get their minds around, and think thats all they have to do.
....Never works then, won't work now. If Spain ever deteriorates (And i hope it never does), to Rawanda....you can always use a rock or a knife. When hate is in the heart, its only a question of method in the murder.
....Deal with the heart, and you will have a better start at peace. But, remember....ultimatly, the only life you control is your own. What others choose to do, is not in any mans power to totaly control....with out tyrany.

[Ash]

Uh oh!  I sense that a little fire has been lit which was not what I was going for in my original post.....My main concern was that it would get out of hand on the death penalty subject.  My father (an avid skeet & trap shooter) has a sign up on the wall in his "gun room".  It says "guns don't kill, people do!"  Please extinguish it before it erupts into a full fledged blaze on gun control  (definitely NOT what I wanted).......  Thanks........

[Dano]

These shootings are happening around where I live and to be honest, I find myself pulling my blinds more often.  I was at a gas station today filling my car up and I suddenly had a feeling and started looking around at passing cars and the trees across the road.  It was pretty scary.  Then I had a vision of M. Emmet Walsh with an M-16 shooting at me saying "Die Random sonofab***h!" and me thinking he was shooting the cans of motor oil and trying to run away from all the cans.  I started laughing.  Don't mean to make light of the murders and maimings of people... just sharing.

For the record, I am against the death penalty for a number of reasons.  The one people most readily can understand is that you can't take the death penalty back, and sometimes people who didn't do it get convicted.  There's other reasons, but that's the one that even pro-death penalty people usually can accept as valid.  I hope they catch the guys and they spend the rest of their lives in a concrete cell with iron bars for a door.

You do stir the pot, ASHTHECAT.  Not a criticism, just an observation.
: )

[Dano]

--It's often said that it's more expensive to kill a prisoner than keep him alive. I don't have any figures to back that up, but if it's true, it's yet another (albeit minor) reason to oppose the Death Penalty.
*****  This is true IF the inmate is appealing his sentence (it's the court costs that cost so much).  I think on the whole a state spends more money having the death penalty than not having it.