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Latest Member: MichaelMom Forum  |  Movies  |  Bad Movies  |  Faux fur is murder! « previous next »
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Author Topic: Faux fur is murder!  (Read 7863 times)
« Reply #60 on: November 21, 2002, 07:03:34 AM »

Just something to play around with in our heads: according to the story of Adam and Eve, life devoid of evil, death, and pain is exactly what God (supposedly) had planned for us; had they not fallen into temptation, they would still be in Eden.
Jim H
« Reply #61 on: November 21, 2002, 08:50:08 AM »

"Some of us like to think there is a purpose to all of this. Looking at nature, most successful species, whether plant or animal, have the ability to spread. It is not that difficult to believe, as we become a spacefaring species, that we will one day spread life from our planet to others, allowing life from Earth to survive the death of our sun, billions of years from now. That, to me, would seem to be the logical direction for nature to go. For all we know, that's how life came to Earth. "

I think our purpouse is to exist.  It's not much of a purpouse, but it's not bad either.  I don't really like to think of us having an over arching purpouse, as I don't think humans are really 'good' as a whole, so I'd rather we just existed for a few thousand more years then evolved into something else.  That's already where we're headed, only we're simply diverging rather then going into a unified evolutionary process.  

"If this is all random chance, and all we do is of no significance (an idea that seems ludicrous to me), why not just nuke ourselves now? "

Why does it seem ludicrious?  Can't we just be happy existing, completely by ourselves?  Why does there HAVE to be a real point to the universe?  

"The way I see it, there is a meaning to everything that we have not yet advanced far enough to grasp. "

If that were true, you would not have been able to grasp that we haven't grasped it.  I think that's a circular kind of thing.

"To say that there is no purpose in nature, no plan, no guiding intelligence, simply because we cannot see or understand it is, to me, far more arrogant than believing ourselves superior to animals."

Why though?  Myself, I can't really deny with any real confidence there is no guiding intelligence in the universe, just as no one really say there is one.  I don't see why it is arrogant to not think there is one...  

"I kind of see humanity as being in adolescence. We can do a lot more things than we used to, and we're having fun with it, without too much thought of the consequences. Like the kid who doesn't want to be seen with his parents, many of us have also turned our backs on God. We think we know everything, but there is much more to learn. Someday we'll grow up. "

I think that is a good analogy.  Except I imagine we're a drug addled youth, and we might end up ODing before we get into rehab.  

Maybe when we grow up, we'll grow out of religion.  Maybe not.  We'll see, or rather we won't as we'll be dead and it will be irrelevant to us anyways.
Jim H
« Reply #62 on: November 21, 2002, 08:54:26 AM »

"I think George Burns said it best in OH GOD. "Is my existence any more improbable than your own?""

If there's a God, I sincerely hope he is like the one in Oh, God.  He seemed like a good guy who wasn't the total prick he is in nearly every religion out there.  Multiple gods would be better, though.

"Again, if all we can see is all there is, we might as well nuke ourselves now"

Why?  Are you THAT dissatisfied with our current lot?  It seems ok to me, I rather like it here actually...
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« Reply #63 on: November 21, 2002, 09:02:44 AM »

I've read interpretations that suggest the apple represented human ingenuity (for lack of a better word) and being cast out of paradise represented all of the problems that go with being a thinking being.


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« Reply #64 on: November 21, 2002, 09:08:27 AM »

Jim H wrote:
> God.  He seemed like a good guy who wasn't the total prick he
> is in nearly every religion out there.

The problem is that every religion has pricks in it. Don't blame God.

> Why?  Are you THAT dissatisfied with our current lot?

Not really. I'm having fun. I just sometimes wonder if it is serving any lasting purpose. I hope it is.


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« Reply #65 on: November 21, 2002, 11:29:59 AM »

Dude, I'm sure Eden is nice and all, but all the stuff that tempts me that I submit to everyday are the best things in my life.  I'd much rather deal with having bad stuff happen to me, as long as, in the end there's still sex and music and weed and movies and everything else that I guess would go under the headding "knowledge."  Personally, I'm glad Eve ate that apple.

Sorry if I have offended anyone.


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« Reply #66 on: November 21, 2002, 01:42:41 PM »

"Why would God need a Starship?"
"Who are you?"
"Don't you know me!?!  Aren't YOU God?"
"Jim, you don't ask the Almighty for his I.D.!"

Those priceless lines make Star Trek 5 worth sitting through over and over.

As for the existence of God, that will be debated and argued over by better minds than mine until the end.  However, in minor defense of my faith, I would like to share why I believe courtesy of Max Lucado (whom I just happen to be reading right now).  He says it better than I ever could, the setting is the Garden of Eden prior to the Creation of Adam...

He writes -

He placed one scoop of clay upon another until a form lay lifeless on the ground.
All of the Garden's inhabitants paused to witness the event.  Hawks hovered.  Giraffes stretched.  Trees bowed.  Butterflies paused on petals and watched.
"You will love me, nature," God said.  "I made you that way.  You will obey me, universe.  For you were designed to do so.  You will reflect my glory, skies, for that is how you were created.  But this one will be like me.  This one will be able to choose."
All were silent as the Creator reached into himself and removed something yet unseen.  A seed.  "It's called 'choice.'  The seed of choice."
Creation stood in silence and gazed upon the lifeless form.
An angel spoke, "But if he..."
"What if he chooses not to love?" the Creator finished.  "Come, I will show you."
Unbound by today, God and the angel walked into the realm of tomorrow.
"There, see the fruit of the seed of choice, both the sweet and the bitter."
The angel gasped at what he saw.  Spontaneous love. Voluntary devotion.  Chosen tenderness.  Never had he seen anything like these.  He felt the love of the Adams.  He heard the joy of Eve and her daughters.  He saw the food and the burdens shared.  He absorbed the kindness and marveled at the warmth.
"Heaven as never seen such beauty, my Lord.  Truly, this is your greatest creation."
"Ah, but you've only seen the sweet.  Now witness the bitter."
A stench enveloped the pair.  The angel turned in horror and proclaimed, "What is it?"
The Creator spoke only on word: "Selfishness."
The angel stood speechless as the passed through centuries of repugnance.  Never had he seen such filth.  Rotten hearts.  Ruptured promises.  Forgotten loyalties.  Children of the creation wandering blindly in lonely labyrinths.
"This is the result of choice?" the angel asked.
"They will forget you?"
"They will reject you?"
"They will never come back?"
"Some will.  Most won't."
"What will it take to make them listen?"
The Creator walked on in time, further and further into the future, until he stood by a tree.  A tree that would be fashioned into a cradle.  Even then he could smell the hay that would surround him.
With another step into the furture, he paused before another tree.  It stood alone, a stubborn ruler of a bald hill.  The trunk was thick, and the wood was strong.  Soon it would be cut.  Soon it would be trimmed.  Soon it would be mounted on the stony brow of another hill.  And soon he would be hung on it.
He felt the wood rub against a back he did not yet wear.
"Will you go down there?" the angel asked.
"I will."
"Is there no other way?"
"There is not."
"Wouldn't it be easier to not plant the seed?  Wouldn't it be easier to not give the choice?"
"It would," the Creator spoke slowly.  "But to remove the choice is to remove the love."
He looked around the hill and foresaw a scene.  Three figures hung on three crosses.  Arms spread. Heads fallen forward.  They moaned with the wind.
Men clad in soldiers' garb sat on the ground near the trio.  They played gamed in the dirt and laughed.
Men clad in religion stood off to one side.  They smiled.  Arrogant, cocky.  They had protected God, they thought, by killing this false one.
Women clad in sorrow huddled at the foot of the hill.  Speechless.  Faces tear streaked.  Eyes downward.  One put her arm around anotehr and tried to lead her away.  She wouldn't leave.  "I will stay," she said softly.  "I will stay."
All heaven stood to fight.  All nature rose to rescue.  All eternity poised to protect.  BUt the Creator gave no command.
"It must be done...," he said, and withdrew.
But as he stepped back in time, he heard the cry that he would someday scream" "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"  He wrenched at tomorrow's agony.
The angel spoke again.  "It would be less painful..."
The Creator interrupted softly.  "But it wouldn't be love."
They stepped into the Garden again.  The Make looked earnestly at the clay creation.  A monsoon of love swelled up within him.  He had died for the creation before he had made him.  God's form bent over the sculptured face and breathed.  Dust stirred on the lips of the new one.  The chest rose, cracking the red mud.  The cheeks fleshened.  A finger moved.  And an eye opened.
But more incredible than the moving of the flesh was the stirring of the spirit.  Those who could see the unseen gasped.
Perhaps it was the wind who said it first.  Perhaps what the star saw that moment is what has made it blink ever since.  Maybe it was left to an angel to whisper it:
"It looks appears so much is him!"
The angel wasn't speaking of the face, the features, or the body.  He was looking inside - at the soul.
"It's eternal!" gasped another.
Within man, God had placed a divine seed.  A seed of his self.  The God of might had created earth mightiest.  The Creator had created, not a creature, but another creator.  And the One who had chosen to love had created one who could love in return.
Now it's our choice.


Not much I can add to that.


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« Reply #67 on: November 21, 2002, 02:55:37 PM »

Very moving. I got a little misty reading that.

It just amazes me how an amusing little news clipping about a PETA stunt can turn into such a deep philosophical discussion.


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« Reply #68 on: November 21, 2002, 06:08:28 PM »

Those priceless lines make Star Trek 5 worth sitting through over and over.
*****  I disagree.  But nice passage.


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« Reply #69 on: November 22, 2002, 08:28:20 PM »

I still disagree.
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I want to be Ripley when I grow up.

« Reply #70 on: November 23, 2002, 02:45:11 PM »

Why is it all the children being breastfed for years and years appear to be male? Has anyone ever seen one of these women breastfeeding an 8-yr-old girl on TV?

If we are descended strictly from vegetarians, why do Chimps and baboons (which resemble our ancestors most closely in biology and behaviour) eat meat?

If recycled paper is 'OK' then is leather also acceptable because it is a by-product of the slaughter of cows, and not the main event?  (Must be - there is a huge leather-product industry in India...lots of exports to this continent.)  Not to mention that India is also the main source for human skeletons on the educational -aid market.

So...if 'recycled' products are ok, then is a second-hand fur coat better than  a new one?  Or how about a nice bit of roadkill trim?

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« Reply #71 on: November 23, 2002, 05:09:03 PM »

From what I've watched on History/TLC?Discovery, apparently some of our ancestors, such as australia somethingorothericus were vegetarians, but they had to spend an awful lot of time eating.  Meat eaters get more nutrition per bite, so the creatures were able to evolve into bigger brained (and more intelligent) beings. It seems that the brain requires a lot of energy to keep it going.

Of course, these days it is possible to create a nutritious, vegetarian diet.  My Aikido sensei is veggie, while also being a research psychologist.

Still, I'm not giving up burgers (though I don't eat veal).
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