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Badmovies.org Forum  |  Movies  |  Bad Movies  |  PEARL HARBOR: I'd like to drop the bomb on this one for sure! « previous next »
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Author Topic: PEARL HARBOR: I'd like to drop the bomb on this one for sure!  (Read 10984 times)
Chris K.
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« on: May 28, 2001, 12:24:24 AM »

I just saw PEARL HARBOR today with my friend and boy was I ever disappointed. I mean their is bad, and then THEIR IS BAD!

For a three hour film you think it's all about the attack on Pearl Harbor and World War II right? Well, add in a romace story that runs for two hours in length and it makes the film look like a drama picture with World War II in the background for added effect. Of course, I should have known that director Michael Bay and producer Jerry Bruckheimer would screw this one up REAL BAD! But no, I wanted to see if this film is good and faithful to it's history. Well, don't expect that from these two hacks!

But what really p**sed me off was that the Japanese characters were really stereotyped. The film does that "Japanese are evil, bloodthirsty killers" routine story that is so inacurate that I felt like hanging myself in the theatre to show the audience that the film sucks big time. First off, the character of Admiral Yamamoto is shown as a "tight ass" evil man. In reality, Yamamoto really had NOTHING against the United States and when the decision to keep Indochina and not accept any terms from the U.S. was made Yamamoto felt that the decision was wrong and that all he wanted was peace in the world (In fact, this scene is expressed well in TORA! TORA! TORA! [1977], which is the best film to ever depict the bombing of Pearl Harbor on both sides). Also, Yamamoto and the bombers felt that what they did was wrong because they attacked their enemy "while they were sleeping". Japan admired and respected the Sammuri Code which stated you must fight your opponent while they are awake. After hearing about the navy soldiers who were killed while sleeping, they felt that they dishonored the code and their country as well. Also, PEARL HARBOR seems to show the story of just the Japanese starting the war when in reality both the United States and Japan started the war due to a number of conspiracies and occurances that happened on both sides (Again, this is expressed in TORA! TORA! TORA!).

Lets face it, WAR IS WAR. Nobody is the good guy or the bad guy when it comes to war. One side will think they are the good guy and they will think the other side the the bad guy, while the other side thinks they are the good guy and think the one side is the bad guy. When it comes to war, neither side is in the right no matter what the reason is. I might sound like a philosopher and a pacifist, but I am neither of those. All I know is I don't want my guts spilled on a battlefield. Believe me, after hearing some really scary stories from those who were in Vietnam War, I really cringe in terror when I hear those gruesome stories again.

So, PEARL HARBOR plays like American propoganda with overdone patriotism (their is also such a thing as bad patriotism too). Michael Bay does not teach us the lesson that "war is bad". Bay feels that the message is that "Hey, war is good and we should all kill each other". Sorry Bay, but your message is worse than the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. And that is saying a lot, Mr. Bay!

I really recommend that you see TORA! TORA! TORA! and the well made Japanese war film I BOMBED PEARL HARBOR (1960) just to get the idea of what war really is like. In fact, TORA! TORA! TORA! is a Japanese-American co-production that tells the history quite well because we have two viewpoints. That and the fact that the Japanese characters are given true human depth and emotion that really makes you understand their situation more than ever. Hell, the Japanese characters are historicaly accurate and more realistic than the American characters!

Please give your opinions on this film and my review as well. I might review this one for TV too.
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peter johnson
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« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2001, 12:46:39 AM »

I enjoyed Tora Tora etc. very much.  I too recall it -- I haven't seen it in awhile -- as a balanced and fair-minded portrayal of what was considered a necessary exercise of a previously planned (Plans for the Pearl Harbor attack had been part of Japanese military Naval school study since 1925) speculative operation.
I've heard some bad things about the new Pearl movie, & understand it suffers from the same sort of CGI airplane failure as Enemy at the Gates.
Tora is a good film.  I would, however, be careful about taking modern claims as to American complicity in the beginning of the Pacific War at face value.  There are some new books out right now that gvie support to the old conspiracy theory view that Roosevelt knew of the impending attack and did nothing on purpose in order to get an Isolationist USA into the War to help Britain against Germany.  While there is no doubt that Roosevelt did not wish to see a prostrate Britain in Europe, the evidence of a US conspiracy to provoke war in the Pacific Theatre is weak and lacking.  As Kevin Baker so eloquently points out in the April issue of American Heritage magazine, if we are to believe that Roosevelt had sure knowledge of the impending attack, then why not give the word and rally the troops to fight back?  An American victory against the sneak attack would have been a FAR MORE galvanizing force to drive America INTO the war than the horrid defeat and loss of Wake and Midway Island bases that accompanied the Japanese thrust.
I've seen the new books and the old books.  I cannot agree that America was complicit in any way towards creating war beyond our somewhat weak embargo on scrap iron in support of our nominal Chinese allies.  Besides, it is important to remember that Japanese plans to attack Pearl Harbor were firmly in place as a possible military option long before Roosevelt's inauguration or before any sort of material embargo or anything else that can be construed as a "US provocation", or whatever.  They, like the Germans, wanted the World.  Don't let the revisionists sway you.
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Alisa
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« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2001, 01:01:11 AM »

I just finished watching Pearl Harbor, and i honestly didn't think it was too bad.  I mean the cheesy love story was a little annoying after almost 2 hours, and my ass started to feel numb in the beginning of the third hour, but other than that i thought it was decent.  I didn't think the movie made out the Japanese commander to be evil.  What i got from it was that he had no choice, and he had realized what a mistake he had made after the fact.  I thought the airplane sequences were going to look like cartoons, but it actually looked pretty real.  The acting was pretty good.  All and all i'd probably give it 2 stars out of 5.
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Mika-EL Vance
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« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2001, 05:08:04 AM »

I totally agree with you 100%. If Michael Bay stopped listening to the crusty old war veterans and started doing his own research he would have realized that the Japanese arent cowards like the United States. They don't attack without warning. The American government at the time was so arrogant that they ignored the Japanese message of war.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BTW, Man. War IS NOT War. There is a thing as evil and there is a thing as good. And sometimes the good guys gotta kill the bad guys. Remember World War II? The Nazis? Anyone here remember that little incident?
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Squishy
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« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2001, 06:59:00 AM »

...we didn't give a crap what the Nazis were doing to Europe; it wasn't our business. Well, actually, it was--many US companies were making a killing (no pun intended) aiding Nazi Germany AND Imperial Japan before and during the "embargo" against Japan. We got involved in WWII only when we got attacked--and then we pretended we did it to save the world.

...note the phrase "Imperial Japan." Not every German was, or is, a Nazi. Not every Japanese was, or is, an Imperialist. Not every American wilfully and knowingly executed civilians in Vietnam. Not every American is a stupid drooling redneck phoning threats to perfectly innocent people in my local Japanese-American community every Memorial Day and December 7th.  

...we have a few pages devoted to our OWN country in the chapters "Surprise (Sneak) Attack," "Wartime Atrocities," "God-Approved Genocide," and "One-Sided Battles" of the Book of  War. People in glass houses, and all that...

...did I say "surprise attack?" Japanese subs were spotted twice approaching Pearl Harbor, and reported--hours before the first attack. Nothing was done; the reports were ignored. They could've sent warships with huge banners reading, in English, "We are going to kill you with bayonets!," and they still might've been just as successful. We just didn't believe anyone would have the balls to challenge us. Funny how history keeps repeating itself, and yet we never learn.

...we set up an embargo against Imperial Japan. It didn't work. The leaders kept themselves fat and happy, left the citizens in wretched poverty and malnutrition, and used the people's fear and hatred of the ones enforcing the embargo to solidify their own hold on power...and then attack us. Funny how history keeps repeating itself, and yet we never learn.

...you'll never see a multi-million-dollar production about the internment camps we sent our own people to. Maybe, just maybe, you might see a new movie before you die, detailing the bravery of a platoon of Japanese-American soldiers, fighting for the country that had their families locked up because of their race. But I wouldn't hold my breath...in the meantime, watch "Go For Broke!" the next time it pops up on AMC, and wonder why we kept Wen Ho Lee locked up for so long. Funny how history keeps repeating itself, and yet we never learn.

...war is not inherently "bad." When somebody attacks, only war or surrender can be the response. But it is always a tragedy; it always represents failure. The initial attack doesn't come from "nowhere;" it has causes--usually very stupid ones--which fester for months or years before exploding into violence. It is an accumulation of poor decisions and is completely preventable. Funny how history keeps repeating itself, and yet we never learn. Well, not that funny.
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Chris K.
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« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2001, 10:43:54 AM »

Well Mika-EL Vance, good point about the Nazi's being the bad guys and you are right. But as history tells us, when the U.S. first recieved reports about the Nazi's cruelty to the Jews the United States dismissed it as more propoganda (the U.S. was trying to learn a lesson from this after World War I in not to believe propoganda). The U.S. should have jumped in the war alot quicker in order to stop Hitler's reign of terror as well. But Squishy has also pointed out that the U.S. companies were aiding Nazi Germany and Emperial Japan before the United States went to war. So whose the good guy now?

But also, at the time the United States was just clearing themselves out of the Depression and if they got into a war that meant good business to their economy as well. When the U.S. cut off oil and mineral supplies to Japan, the U.S. believed an attack was emminet. However, the government decided that no attack was possible (So looking at it through this viewpoint, you can tell that the government wanted Japan to strike first in order to go to war. I know, it looks devistating to see that the U.S. wanted a war, but s*** happens). And even when the reports of Japanese fighter planes were sighted near Pearl Harbor, they were ignored until the bombing began! (like I said before, this is used in TORA! TORA! TORA! with some great accuracy to it)

Even after the bombing of Pearl Harbor, when the U.S. went to war NOBODY was told why the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor. If the soldiers were told it was all about mineral and oil shipments being embargoed against Japan and that Japan was really p**sed off due to the slow peace conferences that the U.S. was calling in for, then the U.S. would have said, "What the hell, why did you do that for? Just give them the damn oil". Like with the Civil War when the North was fighting with the South about slavery. The South was told that their homes and familes are in danger of being attacked by the South. If the South was told it was all about slavery, the Southern people ould have said "Just give them the slaves already, we don't care".

And to top it off, the complaint about "Japan attacking without the Declaration of War" thing is an absolute excuse. As I said before, WAR IS WAR. When war happens, don't expect fairness. Nothing is fair about war. I am sure we did some things wrong in war that we did not follow in the Book of War Rules. Like I said, war is not fair.
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Chris K.
Guest
« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2001, 10:53:16 AM »

The South was told that their
> homes and familes are in danger of being attacked by the
> South.

I am sorry, but I accidentaly said the South was in danger of the "South" attacking. I meant to say the the South is in danger of the "North" attacking. I have to start to look over what I wrote before I post it.
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Ringneck
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« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2001, 08:03:25 PM »

I think I have something to say in this.  The Japanese WERE blood thirsty war mongers in WWII.   The Japanese, long before they attacked Pearl Harbor, had attacked China, and European holdings throughout Asia.  Where ever the Japanese army was there was atrocities.  After capturing Nanking the Japanese military commanders turned thier soldiers loose for several days to kill as many civilians as possible.  They captured live Chinese for vivisection, used chemical and biological weapons against Chinese villages, and did the same to countless native populations across the Pacific.  hundreds of thousands of Korean men were used in slave labor units and account for most "Japanese" POW's, thousands of Korean women were forced into prostitutution and became "Comfort Women" for the IJA.  

When teh Japanese captured the US garrison in the PI's we were treted to a 75 mile death march through the Jungle.  stragglers were killed, water issue sporadic, no mendical care, and few restbreaks.  Of all US prisoners captured in the war one out of every three died.  Many died as slave labor in Japanese mines, mills, and factories.  On Ichi Shima two Japanese officers executed a downed American pilot and ate his liver.  They cut up a live American pilot for medical expireiments in mainland Japan and caged another in a zoo.  They captured a freighter, tied all the crew together on the deck of thier sub, then submerged, one American dragging the other down.  THese are not isolated incidents, one out of every three American POW's in the hands of hte IJA died, only a tiny, sub one percent of Japanese captured by Americans died.  

By contrast someone taken prisoner by the Americans in WWII, Nazi, Japanese, or Italian, could expect to gain weight and recieve morte than fair treatment.  A testament to this is many came back after the war and resetteled.  

I also have to talk abotu hte internment camps American Japanese were relocated to.  This was not Dachau or Andersonville.  They lived in the same conditions American soldiers in stateside army bases lived in. Barracks, schools, chapels, rec-buildings, ect.    The Japanese interred thousands of British, French, Russian, American, and Austrailian civilians they captured in camps FAR worse than the ones we built.  It wasnt fun in the camps we built, but this is pretty much standard during a war.   In WWI alot of Germans were lynched, the same could have happened to the Japanese civillians in WWII.  THey were ALOT safer in the camps.  You dont see movies made about it because they would be dull, and uneventful.  There WAS an excellent movie made about the 442nd RCT though, "Go For Broke" with Van Johnson.  Worth watching and I'm VERY picky about war movies.  

Rosevelt no dount wanted a war to salvage the economy, and even as someone who hates FDR we came out the better because of the war.  The many inventions spawned in war made the 50's and 60's such a boom time.   I do think though, that we could have been far better prepared.  

I odnt see why the US should have had to go over and kick the Nazi's hind ends if things had went differently and the Axis hadnt dragged us into the war though.  THe holocaust was tragic but would have made more sense to have just rearmed Britian, France,  Poland, the Low Countries, and Finland (who wanted Allied help against the Russians) and let Europeans fight a European war.  I'm former military and no where in my oath does it say anything about fighting for the ideals, borders, or civillians of other nations.  You cant stop war, its the natural state of man, and when in the dirt, under fire, you in a bizzare way enjoy it (its an odd feeling.  You dont want to keep fighting, but you like it while it lasts on some level).  That love of war is why there are sports/atheletes, why people re-enact the Civil War, read military history, join the National Guard, play war games, buy flight simulators, watch Pearl Harbor at the theaters, ect.  Its ingrained into us as people, especially men.  Peace, while far superior to war, is by far the more un-natural state.   Talk to veterns.  Most will tell you how s**tty the weather was, how heavy the gear was, and such, but few regret having killed the enemy.  

WHile there is tons of corn in this PH movie it does show that while we were doing NOTHING against hte Japanese we were maliciously attacked.  They attacked us because they wanted to continue to fight a war in Aisa, sieze more land (The Phillipeens included), and didnt want our fleet getting in the way.  They didnt do it because we forced thier hand, they did it because they wanted to continue a war.  

Their are rules to war.  Its not all a bloody killfest like a game of doom or Vietnam movies made by those who didnt serve.  for the most part, countries observe the Geneva Convention.  seldom are prisoners tortured, medics killed on purpose.  THe Japanese broke all those rules, and fought a war that was even brutal where most werent.  

Now, I dont hate the Japanese.  Japanese people, like German people, are fine as fine can be.  However it is important to recognize that the Japanese Govt and the army and navy did attack us.  we had delivered no ultimatum, had not set foot in any disputed territory, or anything to force a war.  Using the logic of embargo as a justifiable grounds for war Iran, Iraq, Lybia, Hati(under the Duviers) all had good reason to kill Americans.  We separate the Germans people from the actions of the Nazi goverment and the political wings of the German party, but we seem to want to make Japan innocent of anything.  BTW, Hitlers extermination of 6million Jews was one of the 20 century's most horrifing attrocities, butthe Japanese killed a whole lot more than 6 million Civillians throuout Asia.  

Chris K,  THis isnt a flame agaisnt you, but I flet some points needed to be brought forth to counter your arguments.  Pearl Harbor was flag waving, sure, but the attack was dead on when it came down to showing a cowardly attack by an enemy on American citizens.  Lots of CGI effects to Hollywood it up, but you can figure out thats pretty much how it happened (sans the main characters and their plane hijinks).  I really dont know how it showed the Japanese as overly blood thirsty though.   They attacked us, (including our amply marked hospitals), not the other way around.  

BradLaGrange
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Matt
Guest
« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2001, 08:36:40 PM »

I wish i had waited to read this review! I went yesterday and wasted my money! It seemed more like a damn soap opera! Focusing on that b***h"whatever her name was" and her damn love life! ! maybe 15 minutes of the movie dealt with the attack on pearl harbor!
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Chris K.
Guest
« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2001, 09:29:54 PM »

I thank you for the clarifications that you made, Ringneck. You seem to be more into your U.S. and World History more than I am. However, I still stand by to a few things that I said but your views are accepted here and I have no problem with that. But I must add in a few more items before I close out.

The Japanese DID break the rules of war. But as I stated before, WAR IS NOT FAIR ON ANY TERMS WHATSOEVER. Their might be rules, but they can be broken. Plus, the U.S. broke some rules to war as well such as the slaghter of civilians and innocent people during the Vietnam War. But war is never fair at all.

I must also disagree on the attack on Pearl Harbor as being "cowardly". Remember, this is sneak attack. And remember, this is war. Sneak attack has been done on every side of the world and when a sneak attack occurs the person who is about to attack is not going to to say "Hey, we are going to sneak attack. Pretend you don't notice." No, sneak attack is sneak attack. But I do agree the bombing was an atrocious act, but it's war. Plus, the people who were involved with the bombing now regret what they did was wrong. So these people do have morals as well.

So, we both have our views. Though some feel that the bombing of Pearl harbor was "cowardly", I feel that the cowardly thing the U.S. did was drop the bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki without knowing the dangerous effects it would have. Believe me, I have seen the graphic pictures of the survivors and I almost cried to death on what I saw. But, this IS war isn't it?
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Ringneck
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« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2001, 10:37:34 PM »

Chris.   I dont have a problem with sneak attacks during a war.  I was in a cavalry division and and several of our smaller outfits relied on surprize---However, the US was not at war with Japan prior to Pearl Harbor.  If me and you were in a fight, and you kneed my groin, it wouldnt be fun for me, but hey, its a fight.  However, if you saw me in a bar when we had no bad blood or anything, snuck up on me and whacked me with a board, then thats different.   Its like when Germany attacked France though the Low Countries, rather than where expected.  Surprize attack, but Germany and France had no illusions of peace prior to that and both had already gone on war footing.  Smae thing later when we were involved and the Germans launched the Ardennes offensive(know to us as "The Battle of the Bulge").  It was a surprize attack but we were already fighting the Germans.  

There are rules to war, everything doesnt go.  Thats why there are such things as War Crimes.  We could hardly say about the Jews that the Holocaust was justified because it was war, and thier countries had been conquered.   We dont use poison gas, radiation (imagine what 1000 gallons of nuclear sluge dumped into Boston Harbor would do), or bio agents, nor do most countries.  We would if they were used on us(maybe), hollow point bullets arent used,  for the most part, most nations just dont do alot of stuff.  As brutal, bloody and terrible as war is, it is almost never "no holds bars".  After the German army had crumbled the US army had almsot free reign driving across Germany.  We didnt know which towns had pockets of fanatics left, and which were safe.  It would have been very easy to level these small towns at the cost of civillians and move on, but we didnt unless we had to.  

As you said, the A-bomb had terrible after effects.  We are very fortunate they havent had to be brought out again.  But you have to remember we had given the Japanese every oportunity to surrender, they hadnt.  In the oriental culture a man who has lost face (been betered/publicly embarrassed/ect) has roughly the same standing an outed homosexual had here in the 1950's.  A deep, unforgettable shame.  Added to that a warrior who died in defence of his country was supposed to go to strait to Japanese heaven and you get foreced into long bloody battles of attricion.  

Okinawa had the first Japanese civillians we encountered.    They would throw themselves and their kids off cliffs rather than turn themselves over.  Most knew they would live if they went over to us, but chose death instead for the honor.  The army became more tenacious too.   Every soldier made a personal stand for the homeland.  For the invaison of Japan they had designed bombs for children to carry.  They fit in back packs and the child, dressed in school uniforms would run ot hte GI's who thought they were intercepting a child fleeing danger, only to be blown sky high.  Children were preferred for human anti tank bombs as well because of thier small size and the natural apprehension Americans would have in shooting them.  Suicide boats, planes, cars, dog bombs, womens battalions were all ready to stop our attack.  The Japanese never made any serious attempts at peace negotiations.  If we hadnt dropped the bomb (total casualties both cities, including those who died later from effects, 240,000) US estimates of Japanese casualites, militart and civillian were over 4 million(the number of Germans who died, co-incidentally) to 10 million.  By surrendering after the bombs the Japanese saved millions of thier own lives.  The US would have lost up to 800,000 soliders.  My uncle and my Granfather were both in outfits slated for the first wave of attack.  THey would not be here today without hte bomb, neither would many Japanese.  The effects of atomic bombs are terrible but NOTHING like what land invasion would have been.  As for being cowardly, this was during the war.  Now if we had had used the atomic bomb in a surprize attack in 1946 against our war time ally Russia when no state of war existed, that would have been cowardly.  

Vietnam was also terrible, but we were alot less brutal than the Viet Cong and north Vietnamese.  Not to many south Vietnamese treid to flee north, and the Viet Cong had to rely on torture(or kidnapping peoples family members) to recruit.  Also remember most of what you see or read about Vietnam outside military texts (i.e what you see in movies or TV shows) was written by people who werent there, were never in the service, and DONT speak in anyway for the people of Vietnam or American soldiers.
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Warren H.
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« Reply #11 on: May 29, 2001, 12:09:07 AM »

My main gripe with this film is the overly santized violence.  This isn't a movie about war.  It's a movie about two unlikable jagoffs and some chick with no personality and their love triangle.  And, oh yeah, the Japanese bomb Pearl Harbor.  Sorry to anyone who wants to produce a fluffy war movie, but after Saving Private Ryan, that just won't cut it.  It's like canned lasagna after you've eaten homemade; the basic ingredients are there, but no real taste.
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Flangepart
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« Reply #12 on: May 29, 2001, 12:34:02 PM »

Ringneck, You speak well, and show your knowlage. I've read many books about war, but i'm only an armchair general. And it would be wrong to ever pretend other wise. Still, those books written by those who have been on the sharp end have great value for us civilians. They at least give some small glimse into the soldiers life. Martin Caiden's "The tigers are burning" about Kursk..."A torch to the enemy" he did about the firebombing of japan....so many books...yet, how can a civilian ever Know what its like? I do know this, though. Had the Japanese had the bomb, they would have used it. No qualms at all. Ask what the Fillipinos, Koreans, Chinese and other think about the "Greater East Asia CCo-prosperity sphear"....they have know illusions. Men make war because they want what the other guy has. A carjacker and Hitler are the same...its only a matter of scale. The core idea is the same. No, the U.S. was justifyed in its anger,and did what we had to, flawed motivations or no...but at least we knew when to quit, and so Japan still exists...Leave uo not forget that!
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peter johnson
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« Reply #13 on: May 29, 2001, 02:52:18 PM »

This has been a good discussion, though a bit off the mark re. badmovies.
I do have a bit of a puzzlement over Ringneck's assertion that we shouldn't have bothered with the Germans.  Let us not forget that Germany declared war on US before we declared on them -- Roosevelt went to Congress seeking SOLELY a declaration against Japan -- In fact, the USA enjoys the distinction of being the ONLY country in WW2 that Hitler declared war on first before attacking.  WW2 was not in the classic sense a "European" war -- Hitler sought control of the central Asian land mass -- modern day Siberia & points south.  Had he been successful, this would have been an unassailable fortress from which to dictate world dominion.  Look up the work being done by Heinkel and Dornier preceeding and during the war.  Plans for the "New York Bomber" were on the books in Germany before the invasion of France -- the work on "Dyna Soar"(High altitude jet/glider bomber) done by Bell in the 1950's was nothing more than a replication of the New York Bomber as developed by Germany.  Our abrupt invasion of North Africa in 1942 helped refocus German energies somewhat, but whether we had entered the European conflict or not, there can be little doubt that we would have been next.
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Ringneck
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« Reply #14 on: May 29, 2001, 03:14:27 PM »

My view on avoiding the European war was this, ( I may not have been clear as it was a long reply I wrote very quickly).....

An ideal situation would have been if we had armed the French and British much earlier, and had they armed the Poles, or at least attacked Germany when Germany attacked Poland(as they were obligated by treaty to do) Germany would have been contained much ealirer.  THe only reason Germany attacked the low countries was to get at France, which the Germans felt was weak and could be easily captured.  Ironically while Germany was getting ready to attack France tehy were so un prepared for defence France could have cut right through them.  Remember that most of Germany's aviaition gas was used up after the initial stages of the Russian invasion, and she had to revert to stocks of captured Pole and French gas.    

So, basically, had we gotten France and England organized and equipped, Hitler would have set his sites East and went after the Soviets.  We only supplied them with about 10% of thier tanks, and hte only trucks we gave them were Studebakers the Army had refused to use so as long as they could get aircraft from us I think it would have been alright.   Without a German occupation of western Europe almost 3 million Jews would not have been died in the holocaust.  

Even with us out of Europe, I stil think war was inevitable in the Pacific.  Japan and US itnerestes collided to many places.  But with us out of Europe we would have won a Pacific war in about half the time.  The only bad part is the bomb probably would not be developed at hat point and an invasion would be neccessary, resulting in all those Japanese civillian casualties.   However, overall things might have worked out better overall.   We cant really know though, and even if we could change history it probably is best avoided.  

Now, the way things did develope, with Germany declaring war on us after the Japanese attack---we did exactly as we should.  We were in no danger of invasion by Japan, but England was in mortal danger of collapse (Germany could never have launched a cross channel invasion, they lacked all the supplies and specialized ships and landing craft we had) from lack of basic supplies, so the "Europe First" policy was the correct one.  


BradLaGrange
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    Earth is visited by a GIANT ANTIMATTER SPACE BUZZARD! Gawk at the amazingly bad bird puppet, or chuckle over the silly dialog. This is one of the greatest b-movies ever made.

    Lesson Learned:
    • Osmosis: os·mo·sis (oz-mo'sis, os-) n., 1. When a bird eats something.

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