Pre-MST3K Bad Movie Shows

[Feathertop]

This started as a tangential conversation under LGD's thread about wanting suggestions for bad and trashy movies, but since it's a topic I always find interesting to discuss I'm moving part of it here to a separate thread in case anyone else here might have thoughts on the subject but missed it since it was part of a thread about a different topic.
I mentioned Elena Watson's classic book on Movie Hosts that I bought when it came out in 1991 and expressed my disappointment that even though it came out in 1991 she didn't cover MST3K either as a local show on KTMA in Minesota from 1988 to 1989 or as a nationwide show on the channel that became Comedy Central.  This topic often stimulates conversation about pre-MST3K movie host shows that were a staple of local programming in the 50's, 60's, 70's and early-mid 80's.  Here's a copy of my reply plus some afterthoughts: (I was replying to a comment that MST3K was properly left out of the book since it had open contempt for the turkeys it showed. ):

Actually a staple of just about EVERY Bad Movie Host show I ever saw was a joking and irreverent attitude toward the bad films they showed. I consider MST3K to be the logical extension of all previous movie host shows since they took the concept to the next level by ridiculing  the movie even while it was playing and not just before and after commercial breaks like most other Bad Movie Hosts.
Watson's wonderful book details the various types of comedy sketches and sarcastic remarks the hosts would make about the turkeys they showed so MST3K would have fit perfectly into the theme of the book.  (At least it would have from 1988 to 1995, the period when I think it most resembled Bad Movie Shows of the past.)  
Please don't feel I'm being argumentative, I simply think this is an intriguing issue to discuss. I was wondering if you ever read Elena Watson's book or if you grew up watching any local Bad Movie Host yourself? It may be an age thing , since I'm 39 and everybody I know my age or older who liked MST3K all felt part of it's charm was the way it was a larger scale version of the Bad Movie Host shows we had watched as kids and teenagers.  Just for conversation's sake let me point out  some hosts that I think were "predecessors in spirit" of Mystery Science Theater 3000:
We can lump in the Vampira, Zacherle, Seymour, Ghoulardi, Dr. Morgus and many other types into a big category for pioneering some of the primary elements like various comedic bits regarding mock products and commercials (indeed, I think Joel Robinson found the PERFECT vehicle for his "prop comedy" in the Movie Host format in general and the Invention Exchange in particular). Many of those hosts also had underlings or assistants who would be used and abused the way Dr Forrester treated T.V.'s Frank and  they would ALL do sketches parodying scenes from the Bad Movie being shown.
Moving into more particular territory, SVENGOOLIE (Rich Koz) had a show from 1979 to 1986(and I got to see his show on various business trips)that was flat-out state of the art for Bad Movie Hosting and in addition to his sketches his SONGS and MUSICAL bits were virtually blow-by-blow forerunners of Mike Nelson's tuneful contributions to MST3K. Indeed, when Svengoolie went back on the air in the late 90's he reportedly received plenty of hate mail from Misties accusing him of ripping off "their" show, since they were too young to remember that MST3K itself owed a certain stylistic debt to the many Bad Movie shows that came before. (I'm not a convention hound myself, but I've heard that some of the makers of MST3K have admitted at conventions that Svengoolie influenced their show.)
DR MADBLOOD'S MOVIE would have sarcastic remarks appear in writing on-screen during the movie (like  the bits of information that appear in "Pop-Up Videos"), so I consider these "Pop-up Riffs" if you will, to be another step along the "evolutionary ladder" culminating in the Minnesota Folks' terrific show.
TEXAS 27 FILM VAULT in some ways played like a "pilot" for MST3K and since it was one of my favorites I regret that Elena did not devote more space to it in her book. I'm certainly not implying any stealing of ideas occurred, but I would be willing to bet that Joel Hodgson saw some episodes of this show while traveling around to clubs with his prop comedy act.  Randy and Richard, the hosts of T27FV wore jumpsuits and hardhats that were similar to Joel's outfit(although I grant you he only had  the hardhat on during the opening theme music) plus their Film Vault set was similar to the original Deep 13 layout. Their premise was that beneath every major city in the U.S. were huge Film Vaults in which bad and campy movies were stored to be shown on the various Bad Movie shows around the country(I MISS the days of local programming!) and as "Film Vault Technicians First Class" they would protect the films from rat-like creatures called "cellumites". This, of course, was just the framing format to justify the showing (and mocking) of the Bad Movies. This show even had a door-opening bit that was similar to the later one on MST3K.  
Anyway, I feel the final product of this ever-evolving format was Mystery Science Theater 3000, the ULTIMATE Bad Movie Host show.   I'm surprised a similar show hasn't taken to the airwaves yet, since from my understanding of the law on this there is no way to copyright a concept like sitting in front of a movie and ridiculing it. God knows there's an audience just WAITING for a show to fill the void left by the end of the Minnesota Folks' show.
Any opinions? Please remember, I'm not knocking MST3K so there's no need to respond with something like "You SUCK! MST3K ROOLZ!"
And I think anyone who enjoyed the Minnesota Folks's show would like Elena Watson's book!

If anyone actually replies to this I would be interested not just in your opinion but also in how old you are and if you first saw MST3K during it's early years or only after it's move to the Sci-Fi Channel (since by then I don't think it bore any resemblance to the old Bad Movie Shows and therefore I don't think anyone who only saw those episodes will see any connection.)

[JohnL]

>or if you grew up watching any local Bad Movie Host yourself?

When I was younger, I used to watch Elvira late Saturday nights, but then they took her off. I also watched Joe Bob Briggs on the Movie Channel and TNT.
I don't recall any other hosts being shown in this area. Lots of bad movies and on the weekend we had Chiller Theater with the 6-fingered claymation hand, but no host.

>I MISS the days of local programming!

Me too!

>how old you are and if you first saw MST3K during it's early years or only after it's move to the Sci-Fi Channel

I'm 36. We didn't have Comedy Central when MST3K was playing, so I've really only seen the SciFi episodes. One of the channels once did a preview of Comedy Central, so I got to see one episode of it; Alien From L.A. with Kathy Ireland. Not sure who was the host then though because I didn't see it again for like another 2-3 years.

[Feathertop]

Thanks for the response, JohnL. On "Alien From L.A." Mike Nelson would have been the host.

[Dunners]

I found mst3k when I was like 17, I'm almost 23 now and I love the show to death, I watched almost all of the scifi season and felt they got jilted in movie quality, squirm, invasion of the neptune men , hobgoblins and 'it lives by night' ae examples of the worst bad movies ever' I wanted more roger corman,Bert I. Gordon, and 'good' bad japanese movies like prince of space.

[Feathertop]

Dunners,
You're probably tired of hearing this from old-timer MST3K fans like myself, but if you wanted more of those directors it's a shame you never got to see the show from 1989 to 1995 on Comedy Central. They did a virtual orgy of Corman movies, (yet oddly missed doing ATTACK OF THE CRAB MONSTERS) and a ton of Bert I Gordon's films.  I even liked the episodes they did as a local  show on KTMA in Minnesota before going nationwide.  
At least you can buy some of the Joel Hodgson and early Mike Nelson era on the tapes of the show that are sold.

[jmc]

I'm 30 and only caught most of the Sci-Fi episodes, other than the ones that are for sale commercially.    

We had one host on a nearby Arkansas UHF station, "Dr. Bela."  I was only six or seven years old and was kind of scared of him, so I don't remember his attitude toward the films.  

Other than that, my only real exposure is Joe Bob Briggs.

[Dunners]

actually I been buy bootlegs :) I  am sad that I missed so much of the show though, I guess the bootlegs I buy on occasion( as well as the leagal tapes) will have to do. I still love this show.

[Feathertop]

JMC,
I always like hearing about hosts that Elena's book didn't really cover. Thanks for the info on Dr. Bela!

[jmc]

He was on a station in Fort Smith, Arkansas.  I know he was on in the late Seventies and early Eighties, but not for very long.  I think he played it somewhat straight, but as I say, I was pretty young and maybe just didn't pick up on it.   He had this crazy laugh that I still remember.  

In Tulsa during the early 80s we had "Creature Feature."  At first it had no host, but later some local actors did comedy bits during the breaks, but they had little or no relation to the movie and weren't movie-related.  Does the book have anything about Mazeppa in it?  That was one that was very popular in Tulsa in the early Seventies--slightly before my time but my parents remember watching it.   I think it was more a collection of crazy skits...the main point of interest is that Southern character actor Gailard Sartain [he was in MISSISSIPPI BURNING and THE APOSTLE among others] and Gary Busey both got their start there.

[Feathertop]

Sadly, no details on Mazeppa in the book. For your part of the country she mostly covers CREMATIA MORTEM , an Elvira-type Hostess who was syndicated in much of the Southwest.