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Badmovies.org Forum  |  Movies  |  Bad Movies  |  Rock music sucks now days « previous next »
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Author Topic: Rock music sucks now days  (Read 44188 times)
Fearless Freep
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« Reply #45 on: July 02, 2003, 03:41:43 PM »

I would like to say to all of those people who think singers in metal bands can't sing.Let me ask you,do you think you could scream your head off for five minutes with out blowing out your vocal cords, let alone doing it for an eniter show,I don't think so

I don't know if you're talking to me based on my remarks about Dillinger, but if it is...

Thats not really singing :) Or rather, it's the over emphasis on a small part of singing talent at the expense of many others.

To be a musician, a good musician, involves the coordination of many efforts.  Some are physical, some are mental.  There are some things that are physical that are not too difficult to do that just require hours and hours and hours of doing it over and over again until your muscles can just do it.  Playing fast is one example of such an effort.  Play yuor scales over and over again as fast as you can and you *will* get faster, you *will* develop more endurance, etc.....  but that's just a small part of what being a musician is all about.  Like athletes who work out in the weight room for hours until their muscles get more powerful and the lungs and hearts can work harder for longer.  It's a part of being an athlete, but playing baseball or football is not about lifting weights, it's about taking the physical results of the weight work and applying it within the context of the rules and mental aspects of playing the sport.

And the mental context of music involves aspects of knowing things like what key the song is in, and thefore what the appropriate mode/scale of the moment is, so that the notes work together.  How to build your musical line such that it works with the music lines of all the other instruments (including voices); dynamics (when to go hard and when to go soft for best effect); how to drag or push the beat, intentionally, to change the feel, and about a bazillion other things to think about and respond to musically.

To be a good muscian involves having physical mastery, but then bringing it under the control of the mental mastery of the music

So to defend someone on the grounds that what they are doing is physically difficult makes me thing of an imaginary conversation with a (footbal) defensive lineman: "Dude, do you know how much I can press?", "That's nice but you're too stupid to recognize a draw play so the running back keeps running right through the hole you're supposed to block", "Yeah but I can bench press 500 lbs" "Gee, that's nice, thanks for coming...um...we'll call you..."

Music is the same way, yes the physical prowess can be a lot of work to develop and can be pretty impressive in it's own right, but unless it's harnessed and directed by understanding the music as a whole, it's just a physical exercise, which is just the first step in becoming a complete musician.

Now back to my Reading Zero CD ("The Actual")...

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The Burgomaster
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« Reply #46 on: July 02, 2003, 03:46:43 PM »

wyckednick wrote:

"Let me ask you,do you think you could scream your head off for five minutes with out blowing out your vocal cords, let alone doing it for an eniter show,I don't think so.There is a need for a lot of control when it comes to singing heavy metal"

Sorry. The ability to scream for 2 hours does not equal talent. It just means you have strong vocal cords. I have nothing against heavy metal . . . in fact, I like a lot of heavy metal music. But there's no way you can place those singers anywhere NEAR the "great singer" category. Heavy metal is fun and full of energy, but let's not get carried away here. Roy Orbison's voice had a range of something like 8 octaves. THAT is a great voice. And I can't ever remember him screaming his way through a song.

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Fearless Freep
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« Reply #47 on: July 02, 2003, 03:58:24 PM »

For what it's worth, this does relate to "bad movies" in a way.  I rarely think about a movie in terms of "is it good or bad" but merely "Did I enjoy the experience", because a lot of what I like cannot be considered 'good' by almost anyone's analysis of either the skill that went into it, or the results.  

Music is the same way.  I happen to really enjoy AC/DC, ZZ-Top, and George Thoroughgood.  Now, most of their music is extremely limited and if you break it down and analyze it, you coudn't really say the musician's are all that good compared to many others on their respective instruments (Lessee..Angus Young or Al DiMeloa?...I like Angus playing but, let's be real, he's not in the same league as DiMeola).  It's the difference between a subjective enjoyement and objective criticism.

I mean, I happy to like "Zone Troopers" and "Dollman" and "Trancers".  They are enjoyable for me to watch and that's all I care about.  But if someone gets you and says "Tim Thomerson and Art Lefleur are the greatest actors in the world" then my reaction is going to be "c'mon, let's get real here"

Similarly, there is a big difference between saying "I love ____" and "____ is the best [band|musician|genre|etc] in the world".  The first is an expression of a personal subjective opinion, the other invites object comparision and criticism

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Fearless Freep
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« Reply #48 on: July 02, 2003, 04:03:52 PM »

Roy Orbison's voice had a range of something like 8 octaves

Also consider Jazz greats, like Ella Fiztgerald, or opera singers who can sing at very loud levels for extended time periods and still maintain full tone and clarity and pitch, without resorting to yelling.  *That's* control

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superdude
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« Reply #49 on: July 02, 2003, 07:30:04 PM »

Dillinger Escape Plan is good, one of the first metalcore bands I ever downloaded. They're one of my favorite mathcore bands too.
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Drezzy
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« Reply #50 on: July 02, 2003, 11:35:12 PM »

Tom Araya (Slayer), Dani Filth (Cradle Of Filth), and Max Cavalera (ex-Sepultura, back when they were good) cannot SING. They're good VOCALISTS, but they can't SING good.

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superdude
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« Reply #51 on: July 03, 2003, 12:06:20 AM »

Their vocals work well with their music but the best singers in metal are Mikael from Opeth(prog death metal band), the guy from Katatonia(doom metal), guy from Novembre(doom metal band), and the guy from Soilwork(swedish thrash band).
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Brother Ragnarok
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« Reply #52 on: July 03, 2003, 01:36:32 AM »

Jesus H. Christ, okay, calm down everyone.  I should never have said metal musicians are the best in the world.  Freep is right, it was just an opinion.  Sometimes people get uppity defending their opinions, and I'm no exception.
1.  I didn't mean every musician in every metal band ever is better than everyone else.  There are more sucky metal bands than there are good ones, just like any other genre of music.  I meant that I think the BEST of all metal musicians can top or at least equal the BEST musicians in any other genre.
2.  The vocalist bit, yeah screaming doesn't equal good.  It can be hard, but Corpsegrinder from Cannbal Corpse is a boring crappy vocalist in a boring crappy band.  Devin or Vintersorg for example, can do absolutely amazing things doing clean vocals, scream in a range of notes and octaves and not just growl, and do it all in the same LIVE show without losing their voices night after night, which is pretty goddamn impressive.  And that ungodly shriek that Dani from Cradle does, I've never heard any other vocalist do that and I'll bet even power metal guys are jealous.
So, let's everyone just go back to the kinds of music we like and not get mad at each other for thinking everyone else's taste sucks ;)

Brother R

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NiGHTS
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« Reply #53 on: July 03, 2003, 02:11:00 AM »

As for Dillinger--They DO have a new vocalist now.  Mike Patton, from Faith No More, probably the wierdest vocalest ever, did an EP with Dillinger.  I hughly suggest it, it's lots and lots of fun.  Maybe not that great, but a darn good time to listen to, I suggest 'Hollywood Squares'.

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NiGHTS

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superdude
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« Reply #54 on: July 03, 2003, 03:49:16 AM »

I didn't like that Mike Patton and Dillinger album much, vocals got too wacky for me. They got some smaples at mp3.com from that album. Only DEP album I got is Calculating the Infinity.
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deni
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« Reply #55 on: July 03, 2003, 12:52:12 PM »

My experience with "Metal Muscians" is that they are extremely one-dimesional. They can't jam, they're timing is the pits, and they can only play a whacked-distorto guitar. And nowadays, they play with one finger. To even speak about them in the same breath as Charlie Parker is laugh-inducing.
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Drezzy
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« Reply #56 on: July 03, 2003, 01:20:25 PM »

Are you trying to say that the growls/screams/screeches in many forms of metal don't fit the music? Because I have a hard time hearing Bruce Dickinson sing in his operatic voice while the boys from Cannibal Corpse blast out "Devoured By Vermin"...

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Evan3
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« Reply #57 on: July 03, 2003, 01:35:19 PM »

NiGHTS wrote:

> Jackflack:

I will answer for him

> Mindless, no.  There is more artfulness in half of a DIllinger
> riff, and in half a stanze, than in the entire Meteora album.

I havent listened to Dillenger yet, but I have downloaded some of the songs. I am not a fan of Meteora, it sucks. but I love Hybrid Theory.



> Secondly, what impressed you about Linkin Park?  

I found them to be an interesting band that can sing, scream and rap in balance. THey use many great loops, have a lot of guitar talent, and have done more than just combined rap and rock, but also have a great trechno flavor, in fact they have one song, Mr. Robot I think, which is all techno and rock/rap drum beats, no lyrics.
Lastly, i love how they incorporate the classical piano, while simple, it is very attention grabbing, they actually seem to realize music in all forms.


  Rap and rock works wonders when done right: Rage Against
> the Machine proved that.  However, there's just nothing
> particularly impressive about anyhthing Linkin Park is
> doing-- it's inane 'I hate myself' or 'I hate you',There's something wrong with the world'

I dont know, I am not a big Rage fan and their lyrics dont seem all that much wiser. How many bands really have to oppose the government and stuff. I will give you that Linkin Park's theme isnt original, but at least it isnt as obnoxious as Rage.

stuff that panders to he preteen crowd.  That' and musically, it's incredibly
> simple, basic harmonies, basic rhythms,

Everyone needs someone to play too. Rage I think goes for the off mainstream crowd. Oh well, I dont think who they play too effects their music. And Why is simple bad. Have you ever heard of minimalist music, it is some of my favorite since it emphasizes the change when it comes. Even if you hate their music, you must admit most pop tunes and techno are simple but catchy. I think Linkin Park starts with a simple melody and then expands it till it is a full blown cacophony of sound.


>
>

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Fearless Freep
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« Reply #58 on: July 03, 2003, 01:57:13 PM »

while the boys from Cannibal Corpse blast out "Devoured By Vermin"...

Ah..yes...the infamous 'Cookie Monster Vocals' technique :)  Sorry but I have a hard time listening to this kinda of stuff because in my mind's eye all I can see is Cookie Monster singing "C is For Cookie" really fast with an attitude

Are you trying to say that the growls/screams/screeches in many forms of metal don't fit the music?

Like I said, there's a difference between what you like and what actually takes musical talent to do.  If you like it, who cares?  but don't claim it takes any musical skill to do it, either.

For what it's worth, I listened to "Pounded Into Dust" before writing this and, no, I don't think the 'vocals' fit the music very well :)  A freakin' melody would help a lot.  I actually imagined ruce Dickenson singing "Run To The Hillls" over the music and it would've been a definite improvement



Post Edited (07-03-03 14:08)
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Fearless Freep
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« Reply #59 on: July 03, 2003, 02:09:56 PM »

I think Linkin Park starts with a simple melody and then expands it till it is a full blown cacophony of sound.

I listened to a few of their songs and they sound like a boy band with distorted guitars.  "New Kids In The Park" or something

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