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March 29, 2024, 02:41:13 AM
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Badmovies.org Forum  |  Movies  |  Bad Movies  |  Return of the King « previous next »
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Author Topic: Return of the King  (Read 6289 times)
trekgeezer
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We're all just victims of circumstance


« Reply #15 on: December 19, 2003, 01:33:22 PM »

you've got serious subtext issues

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And you thought Trek isn't cool.
Cullen
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« Reply #16 on: December 19, 2003, 02:41:18 PM »

I liked the movie.  I've been waiting for a long time to see Shelob, and she didn't disappoint.  The rest of the movie was quite good, but it felt a little choppy to me for some reason.  That didn't ruin the experience for me, any more than the multiple endings.  (And that is the right word for them, unfortunately.  We kept fading to black, fading to black, fade to white for variation.  Not a good thing... not a good thing at all.)

All in all, I think we got lucky with this series.  It could have easily been much, much worse.


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Cullen - Super Genius, Novelist, and all in all Great Guy.
Susan
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« Reply #17 on: December 19, 2003, 04:00:14 PM »

I just got back from the movie..does anyone know the exact running time?

yeesh

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trekgeezer
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We're all just victims of circumstance


« Reply #18 on: December 19, 2003, 04:45:01 PM »

Somewhere in the neighborhood  3hours 20 minutes.  It really didn't seem like it though.

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Susan
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« Reply #19 on: December 19, 2003, 06:27:01 PM »

>Somewhere in the neighborhood 3hours 20 minutes. It really didn't seem like it though.<

seemed longer. I got in at 10:30 and got out around 2 and felt like i spent the whole day in the theater. And yeah, a few hobbit love scenes still going strong - i'm not reading too deep into it either. At one moment I could have sworn frodo slightly leaned..and for an instant I thought a kiss was going to happen. holy crap that would be an ending...

This one actually was better than the previous 2. I'm a fan of the first more than the second. In this version there is alot more character development happening as we are familiar with everyone plus alot of loose ends are tied up. I kinda hated the tease endings..just when you thought it was over...NOPE! We have more...



Post Edited (12-19-03 17:27)
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Brother Ragnarok
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« Reply #20 on: December 20, 2003, 03:30:18 AM »

It has nothing to do with me "not getting it."  I understand perfectly well that only hobbits can carry the ring, and that Frodo is going through a lot because he's carrying the most evil thing in existence.  I can deal with a psychological breakdown from that standpoint.  It's just that he falls for EVERYTHING.  Not once does he suspect Gollum, but turns on Sam.  Yeah yeah, I know it's all a part of the ring's evil and Gollum being sneaky and all that, but c'mon.  He doesn't show even one tiny bit of courage anywhere, aside from taking the ring in the first place.  Like I said, Sam keeps him going through the whole thing, and probably could have born the brunt of the ring even better than Frodo given a chance.  After all, Sam is even more pure and simple than Frodo, so the ring would have less to corrupt.  He'd just need a companion to keep him going.
In the end, it's not going to matter what I say about it.  Someone is just going to peg me for a Tolkien hater who just doesn't get it.  Well, I get it.  I just don't have to like all of it.

Brother R

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jmc
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« Reply #21 on: December 20, 2003, 04:31:01 AM »

A lot of the conflict with Frodo and Sam wasn't in the book--that's one of the biggest complaints by Tolkien purists.
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wickednick
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« Reply #22 on: December 20, 2003, 05:22:09 AM »

I agree with you Brother.I've read the books many times and could be called some what of a purist, but you are right, Frodo is a extremly guliable and naive.When I read the books I got the impression that Sam was diffentaly the stronger and more brave of the two.I think that Sam would have made a much better ring bearer.

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Mr_Vindictive
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« Reply #23 on: December 20, 2003, 09:07:44 AM »

Havent seen it yet.

I hate the films, yet my wife is dragging me to see this tonight.

Pain.

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Fearless_Freep
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« Reply #24 on: December 20, 2003, 06:58:30 PM »

I agree with you Brother.I've read the books many times and could be called some what of a purist, but you are right, Frodo is a extremly guliable and naive.  When I read the books I got the impression that Sam was diffentaly the stronger and more brave of the two.I think that Sam would have made a much better ring bearer.


I don't agree  I think you see in subtle ways that Frodo was pretty strong.  For one thing, he'd had the conversation with Gandalf abuot Gollum, wishing that Bilbo had killed him.  Gandalf's admonish about not being willing to give death even to those whom may 'deserve' it and his prediction that Gollum would still play a big part in some way, good or evil, made Frodo reluctant  to harm Gollum.  He knew Gollum couldn't be trusted, but also knew that they couldn't get into Morder without guidance.  Especially in the book, with the "swear by the precious, not on the precious" speech, it was clear that Frodo knew a lot more about what was going on in Gollum's heart than he usually let on.  Letting Farmir kill Gollum would've been easy; trusting him and putting his life in the hands of Gollum's desire for the ring  was a lot harder, and was something Sam wouldn't have done.

Sam was strong because he had a singular personal devotion to Frodo.  He did everything he could to make Frodo succeed, and that drove him.  I don't think he would have been as strong if he had the ring had had to dive himself without  that personal devotion  While he was the kind to sacrifice himself (water and lembas) for Frodo, he would not have let someone else sacrifice themself for him, even if he should've.  Sam was strong, but in a very simple, direct, self-sacrificial, personal way. Frodo needed Sam, but Sam needed Frodo

As far as the whole conflict between Sam and Frodo in the movie, I think that was an example where the book deals with ideas stretched out over narrative and internal dialogs that were hard to deal with visually on screen, so the writers illustrated the ideas differently.  I believe that the script had Frodo turn against Sam simply as a visual way of showing both the corruption of the ring and the treachery of Gollum in ways that the book spread out over a lot of narrative and simple events that the script didn't have time for.  

I also think that's the same with a lot of the Elrond/Arwen/Aragorn additions.  They weren't in the book , but they were used to visually portray ideas in the book that were hard to relate in a movie, such as the impact of Arwen's decision to stay in Middle Earth, the passing of the Elves from Middle Earth and turning over the land to Men, etc...I think the movie did that in a lot of places simply becasue there was enough action to already take a lot of time and properly dealing with the over-arching ideas properly would've been way too long, not visually interesting and pretty hard to convey, so the writers reduced them to snapshots of events to get the point across
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trekgeezer
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We're all just victims of circumstance


« Reply #25 on: December 20, 2003, 07:58:18 PM »

Freep hits the nail on the head. This is one of those books that could in no way ever be directly translated to the screen.  

What came across as Frodo whining in the movie, was the dread and the ever increasing emotional weight of carrying the ring described in the book.  I think this is what  PJ was trying to get across with the Smeagol/Deagol sequence and Smeagol's eventual transformation int Gollum.  I believe this is also the point he was making by  having Bilbo ask Frodo about the ring on the way to the ship.  Even after a long separation the ring was still having an effect on Bilbo.  

The spirit of  a book is the most  you can ever expect from a film based  on it . Peter Jackson did one of the best jobs of this that I have ever seen.

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Brother Ragnarok
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« Reply #26 on: December 21, 2003, 03:22:07 AM »

Calm down, I can see the veins popping.  I dig Jackson and his vision just as much as everyone else.  Like I said, it's not that I don't get it.  I don't need all the nuances explained to me.  I just think the evil of the ring could have been portrayed in a less irritating way, like horrifying dream sequences, or hallcuinations, something like that.  When it's done strictly as Frodo fainting and complaining and wanting to give up it just gets old.

Brother R

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jmc
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« Reply #27 on: December 21, 2003, 04:41:55 AM »

Jackson is really in a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.  I think he usually decided to err on the side of the books, which unfortunately meant he couldn't do a lot of that stuff you mention.  The trouble is that so much of the conflict of Frodo and the other characters is internal and doesn't make for exciting filmmaking.  He's changed a few things in that area and gets flak for it, but I think it makes for a better film overall.
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Fearless_Freep
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« Reply #28 on: December 21, 2003, 09:12:49 AM »

I just think the evil of the ring could have been portrayed in a less irritating way, like horrifying dream sequences, or hallcuinations, something like that.

Unfortuantely, that wouldn't really have matched the books any better than how PJ did it, and would also not have fit the general feel and tenor of the rest of the movies, either.  Like jmc,  said "dammed if you do, dammed if you don't"; he couldn't really  do the book as the books were so he needed some way to get the ideas across in the different medium and whatever he chose was going to annoy somebody so..I love the books but I'm willing to cut him slack on how he changed them

When it's done strictly as Frodo fainting and complaining and wanting to give up it just gets old.

Sadly, that's not how I remember the movie at all.  If that was your perception and it lessened the total experience for you..*shrug* can't help you there.  Your lose

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Susan
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« Reply #29 on: December 21, 2003, 10:30:48 PM »

Off the topic anyone else's radio stations giving alot of Airplay to "Ramble on"? I know i used to be die hard zeppelin fan back in the day, and a couple of his songs have Tolkien references..just wondering if it's a fluke on my local station or if they are playing them with that idea in mind

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