OT:Rules For a GunFight

[Flangepart]

Love the rules, JohnL. Short and sweet.

I'd add another one : Know you wepon like the back of your hand.
Getting a feel for its weight and balance, just by carrying it, are part of develouping confidance with it.
My Lee-Enfield is comfortable to hold, and its only a bit nose heavy, just like my H&R .50 cal Blackpowder.The Moisan-Nagant is an M44, so its a bit stock heavy, while the Ruger  10/22 is perfect. I adapt my hold on each, but first i like to move it around a bit first, to remember its feel.
Also....with semi-autos, KNOW the magazine release, if its to be used for self defence. A change of gun can cause a moments hesitation.
A Colt 1911 has a push in release, by the shooters thumb, while a Walther P-38 has the "Euro" style release at the bottom of the grip, as does my Ruger MK2 pistol.

(Ahem)...This is my rifle , this is my gun.
                  One is for shooting, the other for fun......Right, Andrew?

[Scott]

> This is my rifle , this is my gun.
One is for shooting, the other for fun......Right, Andrew?

I remember that one in basic training Flangepart. Drill instructor made it quite clear.

Boyscoutkevin that is also true in martial arts. About the shoulders that is, but in martial arts you can use the shoulders to fake someone out, but in a gunfight there are no fake outs once someone makes their move.

Back to Martial Arts our instructor always said to "cheat". No such thing as "rules" in a real fight.

[Fearless Freep]

Boyscoutkevin that is also true in martial arts.

Only in MA you really have to watch more the center mass the solar plexus, for first signs of movement, and keep your peripheral vision open.  In MA, the attack can come from either leg or either arm

but in martial arts you can use the shoulders to fake someone

and hips

but in a gunfight there are no fake outs once someone makes their move.

True that.  In a gunfight there is really only one move and one counter move :)  You don't 'fake' the shot to see what the other one will do :)

Back to Martial Arts our instructor always said to "cheat". No such thing as "rules" in a real fight.

In sparring, you follow rules; in real life, there are no rules (except perhaps "Don't use more force than neccessary"...if the guy is just drunk and pushes you a bit..there are successful counters that don't result in broken limbs..etc..)

[Scott]

> (except perhaps "Don't use more force than neccessary"...if the guy is just drunk and pushes you a bit..there are successful counters that don't result in broken limbs..etc..)

True FearlessFreep. Glad to hear you are involved with martial arts.

[Fearless Freep]

Glad to hear you are involved with martial arts

I've been doing Tae Kwon Do for the last 6 months or so (partially to improve my health, partially to encourage my kids).  Just tested tonight for my second belt advancement, actually; it went very well.  We do TKD forms, olympic-rules sparring, a self-defense/combat that's mostly TKD but has some joint manipuations and such that are not really TKD (more Hapkido related) and  some strikes that are definitely *not* within the realm of sparring (shovel kicks and side kicks to the knees, knife-hand to under the jaw, elbow  to the temple, knee to the face, etc..fun struff)

And you?

[Menard]

I practice running a lot. Usually in the opposite direction ( :

[BeyondTheGrave]

three things I know about hand to hand combat is:

1.Get your opponent on the ground
2.Never let him/her get on your back
3.Fight dirty


 You can’t give it, you can’t even buy it, and you just don’t get it!-Aeon Flux

[Scott]

Sounds like a good combination Fearless Freep. Tae Kwon Do is good exercise especially the Olympic style sparring, but I always felt Tae Kwon Do needed more than what is taught in American schools.

Knife hand under the jaw (throat) and the elbows are fantastic methods of self-defense. Joint manipulation is good, but can be hard to apply in actual fighting as elbows and soft targets are much more direct and effective. With everything it takes practice. Some styles take longer to aquire effective technique.

In my opinion traditional Jiu Jitsu from Japan is the best all around martial art for the average person. Tae Kwon Do normally are very flexible and agile with great reflexes. Tae Kwon Do requires great conditioning and it's a good foundation for other martial arts.

Aikido is an interesting art, but it should be looked at from the vantage point of the other arts first in my opinion. All arts should be respected and experienced. Our family has been involved with all types of martial arts as it is and activity that  you and your family can get your head into. Just beware of the business (racket) end of the activity and get what you can out of it and leave. The belt system is a good form of accomplishment for the children, but the adults should stay away from it, unless it works for you. We've been around it for about 12 years.

We've done these arts:

Tae Kwon Do (Korean Karate)
Aikido (Variation of Jui Jitsu)
Go Ju (Japanese Karate)
Jui Jitsu (Japanese Street Fighting)
Judo (Japanese grappling)
Escrima (Philippine stick fighting)
Jui Jitsu (Brazilian grappling)
Aido (Japanese Sword)

The only ones we haven't really had the chance to do are Kung Fu, Kendo and Capoiera. There are no schools in our area for these.

It's great for the kids, but don't forget to let them experience other sports and activities.



Post Edited (01-11-05 09:17)

[Scott]

Rich Andrini said:

> 1.Get your opponent on the ground (not necessary, they may have friends waiting)
>2.Never let him/her get on your back (never let them "on" your back)
>3.Fight dirty (good)



Post Edited (01-11-05 09:25)

[Fearless Freep]

I always felt Tae Kwon Do needed more than what is taught in American schools.

It seems to really vary depending on the school.  A school near here does all forms and sparring; very heavily competition oriented.  Our school is much more oriented toward self-defense and combat.  We do forms and sparring, but not as much as other schools and we do a lot of stuff that draws on TKD but also incorporates other pieces

Joint manipulation is good, but can be hard to apply in actual fighting as elbows and soft targets are much more direct and effective

Most of  the joint manipulation is based on scenarios  like "the guy grabs you, how do you break and counter?"  Mostly stuff like "a guy gets ticked and gets rowdy and shoves you or grabs or or throws a punch, how do you stop it?  *preferably* without it getting too far"  In open fighting, you are probably not going to do the same thing.

With everything it takes practice.

Amen to that!!

but the adults should stay away from it, unless it works for you.

I actually don't think about the belts too much; they are like milemarkers on the road; shows me where I've come but don't really indicate where I am going.  I don't focus on preparing for the test(s); either I know it or I don't, and I'm a lot more focused on improving day to day, week to week.


Sounds like you have a pretty varied background :)


> 1.Get your opponent on the ground (not necessary, they may have friends waiting)

And they may have a knife.

Better, IMHO, to keep them at distance.  Good to know the short range game and the ground game, but I'd rather first at least try to stop them with a front-kick to the stomach or groin or a sidekick (or roundhouse) to break the knee or...  If they get in that, there's the various palm-heel strikes to the nose or chin/jaw, knifehand to jaw by the ear, knuckle punch to the solar plexus..etc...if they get through *that*, there's the elbows and knees, and *then* there's grapple and/or go to the ground.

Bascially you have four 'bubble zone' or ranges from the body (leg/foot, arm/hand, knee/elbow, and grapple) and different ways to attack and defend at those levels(and transition from one to the other).  Ideally, you'd like to have techniques available at all four levels; personally, being  that I train in TKD (so I'm comfortable with kick attacks and defenses and know how to close distance and also evade) and that I have long legs and much more powerful  lower body than upper, for comfort, I'd rather stay as far out as possible.

Going to the ground is probably decent for two unskilled, unarmed people.  Grappling against multiple opponents, though, takes a lot of skill and is a good way to get your head kicked in.  Back to just two people, if one of them pulls a knife or other weapon, the situation changes *drastically* .  "Get your opponent to the ground" is probably ok if you have no real training, but in that case, I would use it as a back up to "get away"  (Which is actuallly a good first line of defense for *anyone*...best way to survive a fight is to not be in it)

I respectt the BJJ guys who have good stand-up and ground grappling games, but I think for true self-defense, they should augment with at least some striking attacks and especially defenses, just as I, though focused on TKD, also work the close game and will eventually augment with grappling

Scott, I hang out at MartialTalk.com and a little at BudoSeek.net



Post Edited (01-11-05 12:14)

[Scott]

Sounds like your doing well and you have good instruction. It's a great study and keeps your mind and body active. I'll try to check out your hangs outs when I get some time. Just checked your updated Website look good also. Haven't looked at it in a while and I'll read your topics also. Thanks.



Post Edited (01-11-05 12:38)

[BeyondTheGrave]

Thanks for the insight guys about the 3 hand to hand list I put. The werid thing about it a police instructor told me about the first two rules. The third one I knew from experience :)


 You can’t give it, you can’t even buy it, and you just don’t get it!-Aeon Flux

[Scott]

Well, the policeman is trying to apprehend criminals while the average person is protecting themselves. Police must be aggressive to apprehend and cuff someone where cititzens would use self-defense. Police sometimes must make the initial move were a victim is countering someone elses initial move. That's why one should respect the police as they put themselves in dangerous situations, but I think even todays police training will tell you that it's better (not good) to be on your back as opposed to being face down were someone can do all sorts of damage to you from choking to spinal and rib injures when you cover up face down. When on your back you can move better, block, and counter. Face down you have few options unless you can get hold of a limb and roll into a joint lock or basic cover

FearlessFreep your correct that joints locks are easier to apply once someone has grabbed you. That is why I was initially drawn to Jui Jitsu as I feel most self defense actually starts from those grabbing situations. Unless your the macho type and want to duke it out one on one and I don't advise that as you become part of the problem.

[Neville]

I don't know if this has been said before:

1) Don't pack the biggest gun. Pack an automatic with lots of bullets (15) and several extra magazines.

2) Make sure your oponent has the sun in front of him. Face West in the morning and East in the afternoon.

3) Aim to the chest only. Don't waste your ammo on limbs and heads, they move too fast.

4) Aim carefully and shoot. repeat. Don't empty your ammo to find yourself facing an armed adversary without a single bullet.

5) As soon as the shooting starts, dive into the ground (that is, unless you are alone). The enemy will go first for the easier targets to obtain advantage. Meanwhile, you can take them easily from your position.

6) Use obstacles to hide, but keep in mind that everything under a brick wall won't stop a bullet. If you hide behind a car, hide behind the engine only.

7) If you are in a mexican standoff, shoot first. Wait for anybody to start talking and then blow him while he speaks. Nobody expects that.
 
I've never  fired a gun, but it's amazing how much you can learn from movies!

[Neville]

Oh, and always shoot to the enemy's back. It worked for Wyatt Earp, didn't it?