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October 21, 2014, 07:35:04 AM
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Badmovies.org Forum  |  Movies  |  Bad Movies  |  Do you believe in... ALIENS? « previous next »
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Author Topic: Do you believe in... ALIENS?  (Read 3074 times)
Wence
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« Reply #30 on: February 15, 2005, 10:53:47 AM »

Derf,

I mentioned quantum physics in one sentence with dvd-players because the technology behind the lasers used in dvd-players is quantum physics.
(Tell me if this should be is wrong - I think I read about it)

I know that the evolution theory has many problems in fully describing human developement - but the scientific controversies depend on details, the wast majority of biologists doesn´t question the evolution theory as a whole.

Critics of the evolution theory (most of them theologists or religious people) are outsiders (of the science "biology").

They use these controversions to argue against the evolution theorie as a whole.

Another point is that Darwins "Origin of Species" was one of the earliest works on this topic and therefore it´s just normal that it contained many faults, but in over 150 years after his revolution in biology take it for granted that science is far away from his comparably "primitive" standpoints.
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Wence
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« Reply #31 on: February 15, 2005, 10:56:20 AM »

Oh, I forgot a main point:

How do you explain DINOSAUR FOSSILS without evolution theory?
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Derf
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« Reply #32 on: February 15, 2005, 11:25:06 AM »

Wence,

You may be right about lasers and quantum physics; I don't know. Most of the quantum theories I hear about are strictly theoretical, not practical.

One of my points about evolution is simply that it takes as much faith to fully subscribe to it as any religion requires. There is faith that somewhere, someday some "missing links" will be found to really tie everything together. So far, that hasn't really happened. If I understand the ideas correctly, intermediary species (the "missing links" between distinct species) should be almost as numerous as the species themselves, if one species evolves into another through gradual mutation. So where are these intermediary species? This doesn't negate the logic of evolution, but it sure throws a huge monkey wrench into the theory's provability and is one of the major factors that make evolution remain a theory instead of becoming an established fact. Most theories that have remained so unprovable for as long as evolution has have been scrapped and alternate solutions have been sought. Christians will tell you that scientists hang on to the theory because they refuse to accept the truth that God created each species fully formed and separate. Scientists will claim that the theory still forms the best guess at what really happened since religious ideas are to be discarded as myths, ignoring the faith aspect on their own part. A growing number of scientists (biologists included) are coming to the conclusion that life is the result of "intelligent design," meaning that someone has designed every living thing and programmed life's development through DNA. And so we're back to the issue of faith, whether it be in God or nature or aliens. The whole debate is, of course, much more complicated than what I've addressed here, but it does still boil down to belief rather than proof.

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Scott
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« Reply #33 on: February 15, 2005, 11:31:51 AM »

I say keep an open mind to all things. It's quite possible that Alien influence gave humans a jump start by mixing with humans. A mixed race. Read the Book of Enoch. You don't have to "believe" anything, just be aware. When the time comes you won't be caught off guard. Know your possibilities and possibilities in general. Never discount anything. Only idiots doubt absolutely. You must be open to all things.

A dry stiff branch breaks easily. The more subtle and flexible endure.

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Wence
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« Reply #34 on: February 15, 2005, 11:44:50 AM »

I am not a biologist so I can not tell you details about "missing links" but there are proved connections in evolution
- it´s just like scientists in the year 6565 will search the tires of a totally wrecked car to proof that the vehicle they found was a "prehistoric" automobile.

(Again this is a little bit strange comparison but.. ehm, you know what I mean)

The point with "growing number of scientists believing in a intelligent design" - I wouldn´t trust this statement as long as I wouldn´t read a trustworthy report on it.

Again: what about DINOSAURS - was that a "miscreation", an experiment?
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Wence
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« Reply #35 on: February 15, 2005, 11:56:28 AM »

Scott,

I know what you mean, but, taken the "Pre-Astronautic-Theory" (the Aliens have created humans or mixed up with humans) - what does it change in world?

You have to agree that it is more logical to expect the origin of humanity (or life itself) on earth, right here, instead of expecting it coming from aliens.

The Alien-"Argument" doesn´t help solving the question of where life´s from and why did it start to exist because then you must ask:
where are the aliens from, why does alien life exist?

You see - AlienArrivalTheories do not solve nothing and the discussion goes on with Aliens.
The question is just transferred to other solar systems - the problem is the same.
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Scott
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« Reply #36 on: February 15, 2005, 12:10:57 PM »

I'm not saying Aliens started life on earth, just they could possibly have created the jump in evolution.

Wence have you seen the manufactured artifacts found in deep layers of earth that predate any known human involvement.  

Yes, the Alien arguement goes on till infinity, just like the omnipotence of God question. That is the nature of speculation.

Remember once you come to a "conclusion" you begin to limit yourself. Look at educational institutions and how they generally tow the party line or else they lose their jobs eventually. You never "know" perhaps the invention of the wheel may be what has held us back for so long. We get caught up with the whole "reality" and usefullness of a thing and then "experts" appear and the next thing you know nobody is getting anywhere.

The opposite extreme can also be unfruitful, but it lends to the future more than takes away. It's good to have a balance, but always leaning towards possibility. Anything else is ignorance no matter how "intelligent" mankind thinks he is.

Remember our brains are very small. Why make them smaller? There is a time and place for everything under the sun. Everything is in a state of flux. Expanding and contracting. Give everything a chance. Say "yes" to the irrational.

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Derf
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« Reply #37 on: February 15, 2005, 12:13:19 PM »

Wence wrote:
> The point with "growing number of scientists believing in a
> intelligent design" - I wouldn´t trust this statement as long
> as I wouldn´t read a trustworthy report on it.
>
> Again: what about DINOSAURS - was that a "miscreation", an
> experiment?

I have only heard reports on the intelligent design movement, so I can't really give you hard numbers or names. Here are a couple of sources, though: Thomas Woodward, Doubts about Darwin: A History of Intelligent Design; Michael Denton, Evolution: A Theory in Crisis. Take them as you see fit.

I personally don't have a problem with dinosaurs having existed, and I could never begin to even pretend to speak for God as to why they no longer do. I wanted to be a paleontologist as early as first grade; dinosaurs have always fascinated me. However, I have never been one to claim that just because they no longer exist they never really existed or that they were some "failed experiment" by God. As far as they are concerned, I fully concur with Scott that we should keep an open mind. Overall, that is very good advice. I don't completely disregard evolution as delusion, nor do I claim to have any "inside track" on why God would do something. The Creation stories are obscure; we can only guess at timelines and details, much as we do with evolution theories. After years of study of both evolution and biblical Creation (adding to that 20+ years of Bible study in general), I came to the conclusion that Christianity does a much better job of explaining the way things are than evolution. Neither presents as complete a picture as we might like, but the life lessons of Christianity have proven true in my experience. If, along with those lessons, I'm asked to believe that God created the world the way He wanted it, species for species, I don't have any real problems with that. God's track record in my existence is much greater than Darwin's. If I get to heaven and find that God acted through evolution, I will be fine with that. If I die and go nowhere because I truly am an accident of nature, I won't know the difference.

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Wence
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« Reply #38 on: February 15, 2005, 12:31:00 PM »

Scott, Derf,

sure you´re right with the point, that one should keep his mind open
- only idiots doubt absolutely.
- as well as only idiots believe in everything...
Ignorance is on both sides - ingnorancy towards science, ignorancy towards religion.

But JUST critics is newer a fault!
 
(...as long as we don´t think "a***ole" of each other, this discussion keeps being fine and interesting)
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Writer
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« Reply #39 on: February 15, 2005, 12:32:01 PM »



Easy. They're ordinary created beings who died in massive catastrophes (among them, the Flood) just like all other fossils.

I believe in creation because I believe in supernatural miracles that produce physical results. I don't believe in evolution because I don't believe in materialistic miracles. Intelligent Design is fine so far as it goes, but if a series of small miracles from this "Designer" is possible, why not some bigger miracles?

The fallacy of evolutionism is not the huge gaps in its evidence (though there are plenty of them), but the bad methodology by which evolutionists try to pretend that materialistic miracles aren't really miracles: whereas I believe the Maker of the whole Universe assembled a man from dirt, evolutionists believe that life somehow assembled itself from the dirt.

These are equally miraculous claims except that I see intelligent beings assemble complicated devices nearly every day, whereas I have never yet seen anything so complicated as an organism assemble itself. Neither have I ever seen a device upgrade itself. The only transition I have ever seen a device make on its own is from being more complex and having more functions to being less complex and having fewer functions (as when, for example, a computer malfunctions).

Old dead ape bones mingled with arthritic human bones and made up to look like a human skeleton will convince me of nothing. Since materialism has no gods to reward me for believing in what I have not seen, I have no reason to believe in any of evolution's miracles unless I see at least one of them happen in front of me here in the present.
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Wence
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« Reply #40 on: February 15, 2005, 12:46:04 PM »

Writer wrote
"Neither have I ever seen a device upgrade itself."

What´s up when you´re hungry - do you first think of being hungry and getting hungry and therefore you eat something or do you get hungry, then realize that you´re hungry and therefore you eat.

So one can regard himself as an "complicated device".

"LIFE" is a noun, a word made up by humans - we say that we live ?

Isn´t it a generated difference, generated by us to define us.
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Derf
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« Reply #41 on: February 15, 2005, 01:38:03 PM »

Scott wrote:


> Wence have you seen the manufactured artifacts found in deep
> layers of earth that predate any known human involvement.  

Scott,

Could you steer me to some info on this? I've heard a few vague references but would like to look into it a bit more. I also agree with your points to a degree, though at some point we must form some sort of conclusion. However, I don't feel that doing so is necessarily a limitation or even a closing of the mind, so long as you "conclude" that the possibility of error exists and that you may be the one in error. I have concluded that Christianity is the best explanation for life and living. I have not concluded that because I am a Christian I have all of life's answers, though I do now have access to some of those answers. In fact, as most people find, the older I get, the less I know. Besides, it sounds a bit like you're giving me Chris Rock's "have ideas, not beliefs" speech from Dogma. ;-)

Oh, and Wence, I enjoy debate; I rarely tend to think less of a person simply for disagreeing with me--if I ever get that confident, I can only hope someone will slap me back to reality. The only way to offend me with this discussion is to try and make it a personal insult, at which time I would simply begin to ignore you. ;-p

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Scott
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« Reply #42 on: February 15, 2005, 02:18:06 PM »

Not sure what Chris Rock said in that film, but ideals and application lead places. I'll look up some pages Derf about the artifacts when I should have more time tonight. Good discussion.

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Conrad
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« Reply #43 on: February 15, 2005, 04:36:01 PM »

Well, from the worried frown of Jack Corbett to the cold water of rationality as poured by Writer ...

Actually it's not so much a belief in aliens as a matter of probability.  Ten years ago (I keep boring people with this info!) we didn't know if the planets in our solar system were unique or not.  Now we know of over 50 systems with planets, of the gas giant variety.  The projected next generation of space telescope will be able to resolve small rocky worlds similar to Earth, and produce spectroscopic analyses of their atmosphere.  This will show if water is present, as H2O is pretty much taken as essential for life to develop.  If water is there, then life is probably there too.  However!  don't take "life" to mean cultures of people strangely similar to humans bar their pointed ears and green blood; bacteria are more likely.  So don't worry, Jack, we aren't likely to be threatened by our slime-mould neighbours from Proxima Centauri, at least not for several billion years ...

If you want a proper opinion, check out Phil Plait's "Bad Astronomy" website, which is actually very good.

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Evan3
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« Reply #44 on: February 15, 2005, 05:44:20 PM »

I do believe aliens exist... and further more, I believe they exist to SERVE MAN!

Obviously i don't believe that, but I feel the probability there isn't other developed life forms is indeed ridiculous. I feel that what someone else mentioned is true, most likely, space exploration will come about due to our time on Earth being up (same principle that we won't stop using oil until it is finally all gone.) Lets just hope we get to colonizing places before we are colonized ourselves by natural resources starved aliens do...

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