Chris K: In reference to an earlier thread

[Andrew]

I want this reply to be seen, because I feel it is important.

Here is the original thread:
www.badmovies.org/bbs2/read.php?f=2&i=9017&t=8858


Chris said, about America's use of the atom bomb:

"THAT IS AN ACT OF COWARDICE THAT'S WORSE THEN WHAT THE JAPANESE DID TO PEARL HARBOR."

I disagree.  I very strongly disagree and think that anyone who has not served in the military, with the very real possibility of being killed in combat, should be careful with such words.

The United States did not ask for the war with Japan.  We had fought a series of bloody battles across the Pacific to finish it though.  Yes, they were going to lose, but invading the Japanese mainland was going to cost the lives of many American servicemen.

On 26 July 1945, the Potsdam Declaration called for the unconditional surrender of Japan.  Nothing, so on 6 August the first atomic bomb was dropped on Hiroshima.  Still nothing; on 9 August 1945 Nagasaki was destroyed by the second atom bomb.  Finally Japan agreed to unconditional surrender and the war officially ended on 2 September.  

Between Hiroshima and Nagasaki it is likely that over 200,000 people died.  War is ugly, brutal business.  War is what happens when diplomacy cannot solve the problems between countries.

All this being said.  Japan would have happily bombed American cities into the ground if they could.  Have you ever read about their use of balloons to deliver bombs onto the U.S. mainland?  What do you think these were intended to do?  Attack military targets or kill curious Americans (especially children)?

While we are on the subject of Japan's morality.  How about the Nanjing Massacre, where it is estimated over 300,000 civilians and POWs were killed?  How about them forcing thousands of women to work in brothels during the occupation of parts of China?  How about working over a hundred thousand laborers to death on the Burma-Thailand railway?  

Read all the facts, then start judging.  If the worst you can find us doing is interning Japanese Americans in camps (and that was a mistake) and dropping two atomic bombs to save American lives, I can sleep sound.

Andrew

PS:  Feel free to check creditable references.  I pulled out a few books, including "The Oxford Companion to World War II" to get a couple of specifics.

[Chris K.]

Andrew, I thank you for stepping in to give your say about the matter. I have read over the statements and evidence you supplied and it is sound. But I still have my say on the matter and so do you. So here is my response to your questions and my outcome.


Andrew wrote:
>
> "THAT IS AN ACT OF COWARDICE THAT'S WORSE THEN WHAT THE
> JAPANESE DID TO PEARL HARBOR."
>
> I disagree.  I very strongly disagree and think that anyone
> who has not served in the military, with the very real
> possibility of being killed in combat, should be careful with
> such words.

Alright, so I have not served in the military. I am 17 years old for God's sake. I have read incidents that happened in World War II that were bloody and brutal. But I stick by my earlier statement (however, I can change it to "BOTH PEARL HARBOR AND THE TWO ATOMIC BOMBINGS ARE ACTS OF COWARDICE" to make it fair). And it's not easy at all for me to say this!



> The United States did not ask for the war with Japan.  We had
> fought a series of bloody battles across the Pacific to
> finish it though.  Yes, they were going to lose, but invading
> the Japanese mainland was going to cost the lives of many
> American servicemen.

Where did I say that the United States asked for war against Japan? I made no such comment on that. As for the Japanese mainland invasion, as I can recall (my memory is a bit fuzzy) that the cost of American servicemen if able to invade the Japanese mainland was an ESTIMATED GUESS! Their is a difference between a guess and a fact. But, if I am wrong about my statement here then my history teacher must have missed something when he was teaching us.



> Between Hiroshima and Nagasaki it is likely that over 200,000
> people died.  War is ugly, brutal business.  War is what
> happens when diplomacy cannot solve the problems between
> countries.

I totally agree with this statement. In fact, that is what my earlier statement was all about and that we should not judge a country for their past history. I am sure their is not one person out there who believes war is a good thing. And if there is, then God save them.

 

> All this being said.  Japan would have happily bombed
> American cities into the ground if they could.  Have you ever
> read about their use of balloons to deliver bombs onto the
> U.S. mainland?  What do you think these were intended to do?
> Attack military targets or kill curious Americans (especially
> children)?

Andrew, you have just gone WAY over my head here. I will admit that I have not heard about this case before. So there is some things my history teacher did not tell me!



> While we are on the subject of Japan's morality.  How about
> the Nanjing Massacre, where it is estimated over 300,000
> civilians and POWs were killed?  How about them forcing
> thousands of women to work in brothels during the occupation
> of parts of China?  How about working over a hundred thousand
> laborers to death on the Burma-Thailand railway?

Now these cases I have heard of. But that is no excuse to bomb two unsuspecting cities who contain civilians who have NO CLUE what's going on in the Pacific involving any war crimes. What are the chances of the Government actually telling them that "Hey, we are torturing some US soldiers"? Not much because if that DID leak out at the time then the Japanese people would want to end the war and not continue (And remember, politics is probably one of the leading effects of war. It's not about race or who's the better country, it POLITICS). The people who deserve the atomic bomb to be dropped on them would be the bloodthirsty soldiers, NOT PEOPLE WHO LIVE IN THEIR HOMES AND DON'T KNOW WHAT WOULD HAPPEN TO THEM.



> Read all the facts, then start judging.  If the worst you can
> find us doing is interning Japanese Americans in camps (and
> that was a mistake) and dropping two atomic bombs to save
> American lives, I can sleep sound.

I disagree completely and I cannot sleep sound. I have read all the facts that you have delivered to me, Andrew. And I thank you for doing so. I do feel that the worst thing that we have done was the Japanese internment camps and the two atomic bombs. And I cannot sleep sound on that. Why? Imagine if you were sleeping one night and you were forced into a lousy conditioned camp just becasue of your ethnic background (i.e. it seems that at the time we were creating our own Nazi Germany, minus the gas chambers and tortureous slayings)! Or one night you were sleeping and a atomic bomb blasted in your neighborhood and it either sheared your flesh off or you survived while your family died! That's what scary about it! How can you kill inocent lives like that in order to save your own? Have you ever read books about the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings with interviews with those who were lucky enough to survive and recall a bad memory? Have you seen gruesome pictures of what the blast did to people who were just walking outside not wondering what was going to happen? Have you seen the corpses that are so awful to look at that you just could not see why such a thing had to be done? Have you seen the results? It's devistating! It's not victory at all. I am more likeley to be ashamed, not proud. And it did end the war, but was their a side effect?

I will be honest. I am not a pacifist or a "concenecious objector". If I need to kick ass, then kick ass I will. But I am a peacefull guy and I enjoy siting back and thinking about something like this. I cannot go by that saying "that's the way it is" because it is not always that way to me. almost everything is not placed in a little box with a sign on it saying "It's like this, nothing more." Just doesn't work that way for me. I have to look at things more openly and focus on what I feel is wrong about this or that. We cannot change the past, but we can change the way how we act when we learn from the past. And I believe in that more than anything else.

If you were highly offended by some of the way my statements are written in that special "mean attitude" on this post and the earlier one, please don't. I don't mean it that way. I just felt you were getting a little hostile (it felt like it) on this post about what I said earlier. And I didn't mean anything against the USA or anything like that for I am not one of those "hostile" people who have something against their own country or another country. I love Japan, Germany, Spain, Italy, England, France, and the United States (sorry if that one is last).

I like you Andrew and I like your web site. You have your beliefs, and I have mine. It's close to Christmas and we should just put this behind us. We have proven our points, so lets end it. And if it sounds like I am being a "wuss" about this, I just don't want to get in a whole argument that results in insults and rude comments that go way to far! I'd rather be a man and end the argument right now, than be a child and continue on with no reason to continue. It's better to end it now, then end it later.

[Andrew]

Chris,

I've never been much for flame wars, since my goal is to have the other person(s) see why and how I have come to my conclusions. Your argument brings up a few counterpoints, so I'm going to address them.

A large number of balloon bombs were released, but only a few landed across the northwest U.S., Canada, and Alaska.  No more than a handful of people were harmed by the devices.

Hiroshima was at least a partial military target.  Something like 20,000 military personnel were killed when it was destroyed.  And one thing that you have to remember is that a country's military forces are drawn from its civilian population.  The massacres and atrocities were committed by Japan's sons.

My real argument here is that we had spent countless American lives destroying the Japanese military, but the Emperor still showed no sign of agreeing to unconditional surrender.  We had two atomic bombs and hoped that, by destroying two cities with them, the war would be brought to a quick end.  No invasion, no more firebombing, and no more Japanese civilians committing suicide rather than being captured (they were fanatically dedicated).

I have yet to meet a single Marine who served in combat during World War II that did not think the decision made was the correct one.  They gave thanks for the opportunity to come home and raise a family.

Andrew

[ASHTHECAT]

Andrew,  I can't believe you're arguing with this moron!  He just doesn't get it and probably won't for a long time until he wises up as he gets older and truly appreciates what those men did for our country.  Those men that put their lives on the line are my personal heroes.  Because of their acts(and even the ones in the higher echelons that gave the order to drop the atomic bombs) WE ALL get to live the way we do now.......FREE!   Chris K. Don't doubt or take for granted for even a second, EVER, what they helped preserve for you...........your freedom.

[ASHTHECAT]

And another thing....the Japanese we dropped those atomic bombs on deserved what they got.  They started it.....we finished it!

[Chris K.]

You know, calling me a moron may be a part of "freedom of speech" here in the US, but their is a difference between giving your own opinion and being just plain rude! I know those brave men of our country put their lives on the line to die for our country and I have never doubted it for one second. I have NEVER taken for granted, even for a second, on how they have preserved my freedom and yours as well. And as I can recall, I gave my opinion on the matter (and I am entitled to an opinion) and said that the argument should now be closed so now other arguments should result in childish namecalling or insults. I guess that did not put an end to it becasue I now have Ashthecat being a jerk and calling me a "moron". I don't argue the facts at all. And if you had read my response earlier in my comment back to Andrew, I admited that their were some things I did not know about (i.e. the bombs being flown via baloons) that went way over my head and Andrew gave his say about it. So Ashthecat, the next time you want to insult somebody for giving some deep thought into American history please read the posts carefully BEFORE JUDGING. If anyone who is judging harshly, it's you Ashthecat!

Oh, and the term "They deserved it" is just a bit pushy. Granted Japan DID START THE WAR (obviously), but their is a difference between killing bloodthirsty Japanese soldiers and Japanese citizens who DID NOT have a clue what was going on in the Pacific islands and feared the war rather than support it. Their is a difference, but regarless what's done in the past is done. Let's end it at that, Ashthecat.

[Cullen]

"[T]he Japanese we dropped those atomic bombs on deserved what they got. They started it...we finished it!"

Not to be an ass or anything, but that has to be one of the more offensive statements made in a while.  Whether or not you support the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki as a means of ending World War II, the women and children who died as a result of the bombings did not deserve it, any more than any other civilians who were killed in London, Dresden, or wherever else was bombed.  They did not order the bombing of Pearl Harbor, or the massacres done in their country's name.  Their government did, or, rather, the men running their government did.

Now, to REALLY be an ass, and probably (and, no doubt deservedly) get yelled at in the process, let me tell you the first thing that ran through my mind while reading the above quote.  Isn't that basically what the radical Muslims were saying after 9-11?  That the victims of that attack "deserved" it due to all the US's actions in the Middle East?  I know probably you didn't mean it that way, but that's the way it comes across.

As for the bombings themselves, I think they might have been better for both the US and Japan in the long run.  All I know for certain is that I *IN NO WAY* want to be in the position of making such decisions.  I would either make the wrong one, or make none at all (which might well be redundant.)

[Cullen]

I get my post out six minutes AFTER someone else makes my key points.  Serves me right for spell checking...

[Neville]

I know I started the whole thing with my observations about the atomic bombings, but this is not what I expected. I haven't changed my mind about what I said, and I already said I agreed more or less with what Chris K. said. I think he has been quite brave to speak like that considering the war winds around. I respect, though I still disagree, with whatever anybody else can think about the matter (well, except Ashthecat) here, BUT THIS IS NOT THE MATTER! Please, this is a movie forum, and what I tried to say is that I was angry the authors of "Pearl Harbour" had ignored or changed many things just for the money profits.

We are from different places, have received different education  and do different things in life, so it is obvious we strongly disagree in many things, so it's getting time we park them and discuss what we have in common... bad movies. This is not the place nor the time to discuss other topics. Anybody disagrees?

[Chris K.]

Neville, I agree that this forum is a site for bad movie chats. And I thank you for saying that I was brave enough to make my comment. But I take full blame for the argument. Their are times when I speak up and take the backlash in order to get my statement out there, but their are times when I have to just shut up. However, their are others out there who are just PLAIN RUDE (Ashthecat is an example) to accept one's thoughts on a subject and go off to insult those who served bravely in WW2 (which I DID NOT insult at all; I have an uncle who served in the Korean War and I respect him for what HE had to go through). But for now, I will overlook Ashthecat's rudeness and put it in the past where it belongs and lets at least have a good day talking about bad movies and such.

I now feel that this argument should now be closed. We have our owns thoughts and educational standpoints on this subject, we ultamately cannot agree on every statement for their are some differences. At lest we understand where the argument goes.


Therefore, all is at rest and we can go back to our discussion of "bad movies". Agree?

Now, has anyone seen CREEPSHOW...Great movie.

[Chris K.]

Chris K. wrote:
> However, their are
> others out there who are just PLAIN RUDE (Ashthecat is an
> example) to accept one's thoughts on a subject and go off to
> insult those who served bravely in WW2.

My mistake on this part of the sentence. I meant to say "However, their are others out there who are just plain rude to not accept one's thoughts on a subject and go off TO THINK THAT I INSULTED THOSE WHO SERVED BRAVELY IN WW2". My mistake. This is what happens when you are at computer class and don't have time to check over what you wrote because a teacher is watching over to see if you are doing any REAL WORK or not!

Mental note to myself: CHECK OVER YOUR COMMENTS BEFORE POSTING THEM ON MESSAGE BOARD.

[ASHTHECAT]

Just to let you know...I have read your responses but have to go to work now and don't have time to post a response of my own.  But I'll most definitely post one after I get off work.  Then after that we can talk about some bad movies......

[Chadzilla]

Great flick indeed.  I even have soft spot in my heart for the sequel, even though Michael Gornick's direction is a tad too TVish for my taste.  I wish Romero got financing/work more often, the man is truly a talented filmmaker.

[Abby]

Ever see "Tokyo: The Last Megalopolis?" That film really struck a chord with me. In its own peculiar way, it shows how huge disasters like earthquakes kept Tokyo in a state of constant rebuilding. Every few years, they had to reconstruct the city from the ground up. The idea of reconstruction became part of the culture. I always thought that film presented a lot of solid insight into all of the Japanese monster movies.

But moreover, it speaks of a culture whose "language" includes the massive destruction of populated areas. So in a weird way, I've always seen the nuking of Japan as sending the only message that would have resonated with the culture at large. (the message being, "yo, cut it out with that art of war crap, guys.") Fierce battles with heavy casulaties weren't getting the message across, that's for sure. But they did understand the nukes -- the fact that this weapon could destroy entire cities. Like an earthquake. Or Godzilla.

[Frannie]

I want to know why every piece of anime I have seen seems to take place in Neo Tokyo.  You'd think that the Japanese would give up after being attacked by 50 different forms of aliens and giant robots.