Sister Grace made an offhand remark about suicide in another thread.
This is one of the most uncomfortable topics I can imagine. Most of the time, people will make a comment about suicide and not mean anything by it. But sometimes, people who talk about suicide, even while seemingly joking, are seriously contemplating it. I had a friend who made jokes about suicide and everyone laughed it off; later, we were shocked when he actually slit his wrists. Fortunately, he survived, got treatment for his depression, and now is relatively happy.
Like lots of people, I've experienced deep, hopeless despair, but I would never consider suicide just because of the devastating effect I know it would have on my family and friends.
I also think of Nietzsche's quote: "It is always consoling to think of suicide: in that way one gets through many a bad night." Meaning, in my mind, that simply understanding that suffering is temporary and that we have the power to end it is enough to give us hope to continue.
I don't mean to imply that I think Sister Grace was serious. But you never can tell, and I hate to think of what happened to my friend happening to someone else because everyone ignores the warning signs.
Many people resort to suicide too soon rather than seeking treatment for depression.
Here's a list of suicide prevention hotlines: http://suicidehotlines.com/
Well said. Karma your way.
I had a friend in college who used to joke about this all the time, and I was never completely sure if she was joking. She was fascinated with Freddie Prinze, a rising hispanic TV sitcom star who committed suicide in 1978 at a young age, I think while his sitcom ("Chico and the Man") was still in production. She always used to tell me that one day I was going to get the post card that told me she'd done it. I never knew what to say to this.
You made me wonder if she's OK. I googled her name and I'm glad to report that she's more than OK, she appears to be a successful actor and voiceover artist in NYC with quite an impressive resume.
Thank you Rev for posting this subject. I hope everyone on this board realizes that they have friends here who care. Regardless if of any of us ever meet face to face.
Quote from: Rev. Powell on October 26, 2008, 01:48:33 PMMany people resort to suicide too soon rather than seeking treatment for depression.
Isn't suicide always too soon?
(please note: contrary to an all too common religious, head up one's ass, idiocy of a god that likes to see people suffer, I am excluding suicide in the case of terminal illness from the above remark)
Contrary to what you postulated, those I have known who have committed suicide were never vocal or even joked about it. It actually seemed contrary to their happy-go-lucky put-on*. That's not to say that those who joke about it, or are otherwise vocalizing about it, are not capable of it, but that is often a call for attention whether for the sake of intervention, or just for the attention itself.
*Something I have learned over the years, as many of us have as we get older, is being able to tell when someone is putting on a face and hiding something inside. There are many who will not look past that, though, and often they are the ones you hear saying stuff like 'they always seemed so happy'. People with depression, and a horrible disorder it is, will often learn to put on a face; not out of deceiving people, mind you, but it is often necessary to get through the day, especially if you don't want others to find excuses to get away from you.
This is not categorizing suicide, though, into a single mindset. There are as many faces to suicide as there are to the people who commit suicide. As complex as the human mind is, it is not an act that that has a simple, or single, root or behavior.
On the lighter side...
Interesting that you brought this up, Rev, as on Friday morning when I showed up at the local Walmart to stock magazines, I went into receiving to find Shari climbing into the trash compactor (she was try to dislodge some wood and push it down the chute). My reaction was to say 'don't do it...you've got so much to live for'. :teddyr:
BTW, I learned from her that something that doesn't sit right (such as the wood in the compactor) is all 'cattywampus' (I'm presuming the spelling as I really don't know how to spell that).
I've known a few Marines who either tried or were successful. About 2000 there was a Sergeant who drank Pine-sol, slit his wrists, and then finally shot himself in his quarters about 100 yards away from where Katie and I were sleeping. He was ultimately successful.
Guess that it's a little more common in the military than average (probably the same at colleges from what I know). It is required yearly training for us. Last year I was the instructor. It made me wish that the Navy-produced suicide prevention video was not so cheesy, but it's general points were spot on. If someone is undergoing a major life stress, such as divorce, money problems, etc - that is something to keep an eye on. Also the same if their personality or work habits suddenly change, or if they start giving away personal items.
Life is amazing. Every day is a new day, and a year or less can be a huge difference in your life and your outlook. People who are considering suicide should always give time a chance. Time does incredible things.
Interesting discussion. I have known a number of people over the years who have either attempted or succeeded in suicide. On the one hand, there is a deep sympathy for anyone so emotionally disturbed that there seems to be no hope, no reason to go on. On the other hand, there is . . . a certain amount of anger. I think suicide is perhaps the most inherently selfish act a person can perform. They leave behind a family devastated and blaming themselves, and frequently (particularly with men, who seem to prefer using guns to kill themselves), the person who found the body is permanently traumatized.
I lost a good friend and former student a few years ago who strangled himself with a belt doing some kind of "choking game" - he left a mom, dad, and four siblings absolutely heartbroken, and a best friend/roommate who found his body and is still too traumatized to talk about it. I spoke at his funeral and could barely get the words out through my tears, and at the same time, the more I thought about it, the MADDER at him I got. A strange reaction, but not uncommon, from what I hear.
He was 23 years old.
Suicide runs rampant in my family; in fact my uncle recently went out with a bang:
http://www.wsaz.com/home/headlines/27822629.html
ok, maybe my phrasing was in bad taste, but sometimes the only way to deal is to smile and go on. I"ve had family members kill themselves, friends that have OD'd, and others whom have went. I won't lie, I've had my own flirtations with suicide. Thankfully I have a mother who doesn't know how knock before she lets herself in my house with her key....
But I came away with two pieces of advice:
1. Life is not a passing fancy; it can come or go quickly and should be enjoyed, even if you feel you are going crazy.
2. Hanging is not a perferred method and contrary to popular belief, it is exceptionally painful in a burning sort of way.
QuoteContrary to what you postulated, those I have known who have committed suicide were never vocal or even joked about it. It actually seemed contrary to their happy-go-lucky put-on*. That's not to say that those who joke about it, or are otherwise vocalizing about it, are not capable of it, but that is often a call for attention whether for the sake of intervention, or just for the attention itself.
Agreed. I recall a friend thousands of miles away from me calling me at 3 AM one morning distraught. She said she took all of her sleeping pills because she wanted to die. No matter what I said to her about calling 911 she refused because "no one cared". Luckily I was able to get the paramedics to her in time by making a few phone calls. This was a person I had talked to days before who seemed perfectly fine. No hints of anything.
Suicide is an interesting topic as mentioned. Indiana is a history buff and can probably comment more on this than I can but I recall watching Rome on DVD. They had a snippet about suicide in ancient times and how it was a thing of valor to do. Example, Marc Antony and Cleopatra.
I'm with Indiana when he says it is a selfish act in more ways than one. I simply don't think people realize the re procutions they leave behind after doing that one act. I find public suicides particularly disturbing. For example the infamous Bud Dwyer press conference. They had the guy cornered with bribery charges and he kills himself on film in front of a bunch of reporters. Chilling stuff if you dare watch it.
Quote from: indianasmith on October 26, 2008, 05:18:26 PM...there is a deep sympathy for anyone so emotionally disturbed that there seems to be no hope, no reason to go on. On the other hand, there is . . . a certain amount of anger. I think suicide is perhaps the most inherently selfish act a person can perform. They leave behind a family devastated and blaming themselves, and frequently (particularly with men, who seem to prefer using guns to kill themselves), the person who found the body is permanently traumatized.
Quote from: The DarkSider on October 26, 2008, 05:53:15 PMI'm with Indiana when he says it is a selfish act in more ways than one. I simply don't think people realize the re procutions they leave behind after doing that one act.
First of all, I apologize for the surgical nature of quoting the two of you. I extracted the most relevant, IMO, parts that I felt applied to my response; and hence, the catalyst for my response. If you feel that by doing so that I have in any way changed the meaning of what you said, please do say so.
I disagree on defining suicide as a selfish act.
Certainly it can be selfish, and perhaps the act itself can be further intended by someone as not only a way out of something, but as a way to hurt others as well.
What we see as the end result in the devastation to others is understandable in seeing what caused that as being selfish; yet, we did not see the causal affects that led a person to that.
There really is no polite way to put it, but it seems to me that calling someone's drastic desire to end suffering (and it is a dark place at that) selfish is in and of itself selfish. It seems like say that calling it selfish is like saying 'that doesn't fit with my mindset, with what I believe, and that to me is selfish'.
Like I said, though, we only see the one side of it and the assumption that it is selfish is natural; but I cannot agree with trying to define suicide as that.
The most idiotic definition of suicide I have seen was on that equally idiotic TV show, CSI.
Grissom (whatever the hell his name is) had decided that a man had not committed suicide based solely on the fact that he was wearing his glasses. The reason for that, as his rationalization went, was that suicide was such a cowardly act that a man jumping from a building would be too much of a coward to see it coming, and thusly would not wear his glasses. And people watch that damn show?
QuoteLike I said, though, we only see the one side of it and the assumption that it is selfish is natural; but I cannot agree with trying to define suicide as that.
I was referring more or less to the people left behind. Parents (especially) and best friends who loved this person and would have gone beyond the call of duty to be there for them. For example my friend I mentioned who claimed "no one cares".
I see and respect your point and I can see where I may have been generalizing. Perhaps in unique situations, the person who committed suicide really has no one that gives a sh*t which is sad. Either that or the person's loved ones who do care (Dr. Kevorkian's cases come to mind) feel the person may be better off dead due to a terminal illness causing their loved ones great pain.
I've dealt with it a little in my lifetime, and even moreso with depression. I think people label suicide as "selfish" and "cowardly" because they truly do not understand what people go through. Depression is a MOFO, and people that haven't experienced true depression think a simple "Get over it" or "tomorrow will be better" or "it's not that bad" are some sort of magic words. With all the things going on in a suicidal person's head, taking a shot at them like calling them 'selfish' or 'cowardly' just helps them make that decision. People think "It won't last forever, it'll get better" are going to change something, it's not true, you're just proving to that person how out of touch you are with them. True depression is not conscious, it's quite different than the way people fortunate to NOT suffer through it feel. Ever have that feeling that you're going through something bad, loss of a loved one, lost your job, wrecked your car. . You feel bad, but you know it'll get better. True depression feels in many ways the opposite: You have some small little bit of relative happiness, and you KNOW it's temporary. This often isn't just someone being a pansy: We know how parts of the brain works, we know alot about the part of the brain that drugs such as meth, coke, opiates manipulate, and when these areas don't wok as they are supposed to, things get ugly. People often point out medication to help, but, many of those medications have side effects, often SEXUAL side effects. OK, so a guy is depressed, , the meds are going to make his dick stop working and that's going to HELP the matter? That's going to help whatever relationship he's in?
Manard hit some critical keys. People that are depressed and suicidal often ARE thinking of others, and largely because they see themselves as a burden to them. That's not selfish if you can put yourself into their shoes. Parents feel they are the worst parents, and kill themselves so their kids can be raised by someone better. Often they do this because they know their kids won't give up on them, which they FEEL is the best thing for them, as if the children are making a sacrifice.
Darksider states that people don't see the repercussions they leave behind: They see lots of them beforehand, and they mostly seem positive. Again, it's about a person's inability to see anything positive out of living. That's what depression does to a person.
Well said, Ghouck. I've dealt with depression in a family member, and it is a monster. No matter how carefully and logically you point out to someone that their whole life has not been the catastrophe they seem to think it is, depression literally alters the memories, erasing everything good and decent and replacing it with only the bleak and miserable. I am a big advocate of professional counselling and care for depression, because it is a DISEASE. But in the case of suicide, my dealings have been almost entirely with devastated families. Seeing their raw pain and grief and realizing that, in so many cases, some decent psychiatric care or meds would have made that hurt unnecessary, have perhaps colored my perceptions of the act.
Certainly no ill will to Dr. Menard for pointing out the illogic of my position. But emotions, as Mr. Spock says, are the antithesis of logic.
http://beyondblue.org/ (http://beyondblue.org/)
Quote from: ghouck on October 26, 2008, 08:35:36 PM
Depression is a MOFO, and people that haven't experienced true depression think a simple "Get over it" or "tomorrow will be better" or "it's not that bad" are some sort of magic words. With all the things going on in a suicidal person's head, taking a shot at them like calling them 'selfish' or 'cowardly' just helps them make that decision. People think "It won't last forever, it'll get better" are going to change something, it's not true, you're just proving to that person how out of touch you are with them. True depression is not conscious, it's quite different than the way people fortunate to NOT suffer through it feel. Ever have that feeling that you're going through something bad, loss of a loved one, lost your job, wrecked your car. . You feel bad, but you know it'll get better. True depression feels in many ways the opposite: You have some small little bit of relative happiness, and you KNOW it's temporary. This often isn't just someone being a pansy: We know how parts of the brain works, we know alot about the part of the brain that drugs such as meth, coke, opiates manipulate, and when these areas don't wok as they are supposed to, things get ugly.
I edited your reply a bit, ghouk, in order to keep my reply a little more focussed. I've fought with depression most of my adult life, and you are correct in your assessment. But really, what is someone supposed to say to a depressed person? Words are powerful in some ways and totally ineffective in others. Depression is one of those cases where words, ANY words, are pretty much meaningless. And more, actions are pretty meaningless to a person suffering depression as well. The depressed person just figures that the concerned person is acting out of pity or is looking to gain some self importance rather than acting out of true concern. Most people are not really prepared to do what it takes to really try to help a person out of depression; most people, in fact, don't have a clue what to do. I've fought with it for decades myself, and I really don't know what to do. Advice is, as you stated, meaningless. Physical intervention is usually misconstrued. Drugs are iffy at best. I overcame the darkest parts of my life through faith and by finally convincing myself that it is the depression that is temporary, not the happiness. I finally managed to get myself to believe that I would come through any dark spots, that there is an "other" side. No one could do it for me; I had to do it for myself. Now, I have to try to help those around me to see the same thing, knowing that words and actions are pretty meaningless, but I have to use them anyway, as they are the only tools I have.
As far as the selfishness of suicide goes, that is, as I understand it, a natural part of the grieving process for survivors. Whatever the mindset of the one committing/attempting suicide, the survivors/ones-who-have-to-try-to-mend-the-situation are left with dealing with the grief, and anger is a part of it. Menard is arguing two different causes people consider suicide and combining them into one: depression and terminal illness. Depression is treatable to some extent; terminal illnesses are not (though some cases that have been labelled as "terminal" turn out not to be so, they are the exception, not the rule). I've known several people who have given in to depression-driven suicide, usually ones who hid the depression well enough that it came as a total surprise. Depression is a part of my life, and I don't mind talking about it. If it drives some people away or creeps some people out, well, so be it. I have learned to deal with it, though it does still get to me, without resorting to thoughts of suicide.
Quote from: indianasmith on October 26, 2008, 09:08:16 PM
But in the case of suicide, my dealings have been almost entirely with devastated families. Seeing their raw pain and grief and realizing that, in so many cases, some decent psychiatric care or meds would have made that hurt unnecessary, have perhaps colored my perceptions of the act.
Certainly no ill will to Dr. Menard for pointing out the illogic of my position. But emotions, as Mr. Spock says, are the antithesis of logic.
I have more or less seen the same thing in my life which why I have a hard time understanding suicide. I can't see why any parent would want to leave their kids behind. Nor why any kid would want to put their parents through the agony of burying them. Once again though, this is based on what I have seen and felt. Which brings me to Ghouck who has brought up some very valid points. Where I may feel the way I do, someone with depression or who is suicidal may not get me. Hence my illogical nature as well looking at the topic as 'selfish'. But I can also understand why I could be labeled 'selfish' for feeling that way as well.
Quote from: Andrew on October 26, 2008, 04:19:47 PM...Life is amazing. Every day is a new day, and a year or less can be a huge difference in your life and your outlook. People who are considering suicide should always give time a chance. Time does incredible things.
Wise words.
Quote from: Andrew on October 26, 2008, 04:19:47 PM
Life is amazing. Every day is a new day, and a year or less can be a huge difference in your life and your outlook. People who are considering suicide should always give time a chance. Time does incredible things.
True, but you have to be at least a little optimistic to believe in that. The problem with depression, (the root of most suicide), is that optimism doesn't exist.
OTOH, If you're a serial pedophile, I say go for it! Yea, I expect a karma ding for that, but I'd rather see a pedophile end their own life than go on ruining others lives, especially children.
Quote from: ghouck on October 26, 2008, 10:28:14 PM
OTOH, If you're a serial pedophile, I say go for it! Yea, I expect a karma ding for that, but I'd rather see a pedophile end their own life than go on ruining others lives, especially children.
I'm going to ding your karma, ghouck but ding it + 1. I suffered abuse as a child and as a teenager and would like to see abusers put themselves out of their misery rather than carry on the abuse.
I was abused: it stops with me. People who know my history will quite happily let me look after their kids because they know that it stops with me ~ the only thing they worry about when their kids are with me is that they know I will spoil their kids with toys, sweets, etc. :teddyr:
And just to add to the subject, I have attempted suicide once in 1983 when I was submitted to all forms of abuse in a boarding school. Thankfully, I didn't succeed and am grateful that I didn't as my mom would be on her own now.
Japan's suicide forest. It almost seems like someone else here mentioned this place but...
http://www.seekjapan.jp/article-1/767/The+Suicide+Woods+of+Mt.+Fuji
I've dealt with people committing suicide a few times in my life. When I got into High School some girl's ex-boyfriend hung himself because she cheated on him with another man. It didn't effect me that much since I really didn't know the dude and the entire Freshman class was still trying to end their charades of who they really are and be ourselves.
The second one I had to deal with hit everyone really hard. It was my senior year and close to the end of High School and a star on the Football team went missing. I think most of us knew something wasn't right with this, but we still hoped that he was alright. Well the next day I came home from the mall, and my grandmother had told me that they found his body and that he killed himself. I wasn't close with the guy, and I really wasn't even friends with him but he still hit me really hard. That Monday at school, or I should say that entire week after we found out that he was dead was really hard for everyone. Everybody was sad and morale was low, and the rest of the school year was never easy or the same for anyone. What made it even worse was that he never showed any signs of depression or any type of trouble prior to it. We never did find out why he did this to himself.
Almost everyone here seems to know someone who took his or her own life. I guess I'm lucky in that I don't know anyone first-hand who did this except I do know distantly of two people who went to my high school when I was there, not in my class or exactly well known to me, each a couple years older, who did in later years do themselves in. Maybe there were others but those are the only two I've ever heard of. In reading through these posts, I'm left feeling that much more fortunate.
I've known over the years a number of people to attempt or commit suicide, I've had a step father to do it, a good friend recently a few months ago, my wife had two brothers to do it and many others.
So at some point I stopped analyzing it, trying to figure it out, seeing if there were signs I missed, was there something I could have done and asking the eternal questions "Why?" Last week a a school mate of my daughter attempted suicide but failed and my daughter was trying to understand it. I thought for a minute I could wax poetic and explain the mindset that drives someone so young to attempt something so foolish, but experience kicked in and I said "Which came first, the chicken or the egg?" She looked a bit befuddled so I went on to say "Understanding what would cause someone seemingly mentally and physically healthy to do such a thing is just one of the mysteries of the universe and as you travel through life, pay close attention as there are many more."
Well, as someone who's struggled with depression most of their life and actually contemplated suicide on a number of occasions (never really attempted it though.) I figured I should add my two cents.
For starters, I kind of hate those who refer to suicide as a cowardly act. I think people who have that mentality obviously have NO idea what it's like to be extremely depressed and feel that there's no hope left in life. I've spoken to a lot of people like that (I refer to them as "The damned normals"), who seemed to think depression was something I could just "get over" or "snap out of".
For example there was a period of my life when I had strong religious convictions. One of the many things that began to erode those away was not only the constant depression, but the complete lack of support from my so-called brothers and sisters. I got all kinds of interesting advice, like how I should turn to God, rebuke the depression, command the depression to leave me in the name Jesus, etc, etc. It must have been a bit of theological conundrum for my fellow church members: a sincere Christian being depressed all the time? Surely, God wouldn't allow that, so OBVIOUSLY, there must be something wrong with me! I was clearly holding on to some "secret" sin or simply not spending enough time with God.
Granted, some of them meant well, and were sincere, but they didn't have any personal experience with the kind of depression I had, and thus, no real means of trying to support me. Then there were other people outside my church, people I'd know who tried to "consul" me by basically saying, "Quit complaining, some people have it WAY worse than you!" and then proceed to tell me about their problems. (This was a common technique of my mom's.)
The kicker though is I can remember feeling depressed and lonely ever since I was little child. I'd have all these weird, existential thoughts about the meaning of life and the points of things, and find myself feeling lonely and missing my friends from school (even if it was just over the two day weekend.)
Anyway, until you know what it's like to be depressed (not just sad, or bluesy) I mean, getting up in the morning and being unable to think of ANY reason why you keep living from day to day, until you've experienced that you don't know what depression is like. I know most of you reading this have families, i.e. spouse, kids, and probably a gaggle of friends and stuff. Well, imagine having NONE of that. No one to comfort and support you in life. Imagine feeling that every thing you do to try and improve your station in life just isn't bearing fruit. Could you live like that?
And for people who say, "Well, what your family? How would they feel if you passed away?" Well, for a lot of people their families are the part of the reason they're depressed. And plus, to that logic I always say, "Well, I'm supposed to just keep on living because some people might miss me if I'm gone?"
So, anyway, that's my take on it.. sorry for rambling a bit, but it's a touchy subject for me.
You want to know what to say to a depressed person? Well, listening would help, and letting them know you care, you appreciate the things they do for you, or things they've done, and that you'd miss them if they were gone. To me, that would help.
And if anyone's curious, I'm on meds and I see a psychologist. I have my good weeks and bad weeks. Luckily, the last few weeks have been okay.
I've had 2 close friends kill themselves over the years and I had a friend of mine in high school try to kill herself by downing an entire giant bottle of aspirin.
I've gotten in some pretty bad mindsets sometimes, but nothing as to where I've wanted to harm myself or even think about suicide. I went through a really bad bout of depression this past spring through the summer and I worked through it with a case of leaning on my mom, family members and therapy. Don't know what was causing it actually. I tend to really beat myself up a lot.
I've really had a tough time periodically since 2003 when my father died on August 13th. I thought I would be thrilled when the bastard croaked and in fact the last words I said to him was "I wish that you would just drop dead". I got my wish 1 1/2 days later. He died of a brain aneurysm in his sleep.
I didn't know how to react with my dad's death as we had hit rock bottom between the 2 of us and he had pretty much been cut off by the rest of our family (long story).
Plus, this came right after my oldest sister lost her 1st baby at 7 1/2 months pregnant so we were dealing with that as a family and hoping that she wouldn't try to kill herself as she was threatening to. She hung in there though and he and her husband now have an almost 4 year old boy. I also had some really bad financial issues going on at the time and it just seemed like the world was collapsing around me.
But I just kept my head as high as possible as tough as that was and tried to keep in mind that things would get better.
I never knew anyone who committed suicide personally but sometimes I worry about my grandfather. In US the highest rate of suicide is the elderly mainly because of what most posters put before: Being a burden on others. My grandfather is going on 83 and sometimes he jokes with it but I feel for him, He might be 83 but the still drives and does everything on his own. When he goes for to the hospital for whatever reason I can just see the depression on him and not wanting to live. He is a strong man and its hard for me to see someone that willfull in a state of vulnerability.
I was going to post something big and long winded about past suicide attempts and depression, but I feel BTM said alot of what I was going to write. Except, take away the religious stuff and replace it with relationship stuff. Basically, I found that people around me, my girlfriend, my family, didn't help at all. To keep a very long story short, I had a horrific relationship, was disowned by my family, ended up homeless and had tried to kill myself, thus spending my 19th birthday in hospital at one point. I dug myself out of that hole on my own, that's what you have to do.
You have to at least find one thing to focus on, work, a hobby, anything and put all your effort into it. You must also keep reminding yourself, that you won't always be depressed, things will get better sometime and you won't feel bad. Life can change, even if it's in 5 days or 5 years. Don't miss out on the good times. :smile:
Well I've thought about it too, very seriously. For several years I was severely depressed despite medication and therapy and I thought about suicide. Luckily I never followed up on those thoughts. I guess there is something positive about being lazy after all. :wink:
I agree too that people come out of this kind of thing on their own. Friends and family can be supportive, if you're lucky but they can't make you want to live, that has to come from the depressed/suicidal person. One thing that helped me was believe it or not, movies. I could go on and on about this but in order to keep it short and sweet I'll say that Yojimbo helped me out. The scene where Mifune throws the branch up in the air and decides to walk in the direction it points somehow clicked with me and made me feel it wasn't so bad maybe to be completely directionless. It worked for this ronin, and he was pretty cool. The Samurai was down and out, just like me but he seemed pretty comfortable having apparently nothing, because he really had all he needed, his wits and his skills. A very minimalist approach to life, but it helps you keep the important things in sight. While I didn't have skills with a sword I did have other skills and I decided to become my own Yojimbo. It didn't all happen quite that fast , with a burst of light and a song from a heavenly choir, but that movie helped plant the seed that eventually lead to me fighting through all the bad stuff and moving on to make a fairly decent life. It just struck the right chord at the right time, and I'm grateful for it.
I know that's a very over-simplified version of things and sounds maybe hokey or corney to some, but maybe I'm a little hokey or corny too. At any rate that's my story.
Quote from: Circus_Circus on November 06, 2008, 09:44:48 AM
I was going to post something big and long winded about past suicide attempts and depression, but I feel BTM said alot of what I was going to write. Except, take away the religious stuff and replace it with relationship stuff.
Well, I could talk about those too.. family wasn't too supportive, bit of abuse here and there (won't go into detail), not too long after I moved out my mom (my OWN mom) said to my stepdad (while I was sitting right there), "You know, we should have had a house warming party for Mike, as it's not likely he's going to ever have a bachelor party."
Not really sure what she meant by that, either she thinks I'm gay, or that I'm so pathetic I'm never going to get married.
Quote from: Circus_Circus on November 06, 2008, 09:44:48 AM
You have to at least find one thing to focus on, work, a hobby, anything and put all your effort into it. You must also keep reminding yourself, that you won't always be depressed, things will get better sometime and you won't feel bad. Life can change, even if it's in 5 days or 5 years. Don't miss out on the good times. :smile:
I'd like to believe that, really I do, but it's hard to believe that sometimes, because as, I've said, I've suffered from depression for over a decade and, despite my efforts (getting a degree, trying to go out and meet people, putting up profiles on dating sites), things really haven't gotten any better.
Well, I'm out on my own, I guess that's better.
So, it's just hard to stay upbeat sometimes. :bluesad:
Quote from: The DarkSider on October 26, 2008, 03:28:14 PM
Thank you Rev for posting this subject. I hope everyone on this board realizes that they have friends here who care. Regardless if of any of us ever meet face to face.
Ain't that sweet. :wink:
Karma for you. :thumbup:
Quote from: Circus_Circus on November 06, 2008, 09:44:48 AM
You have to at least find one thing to focus on, work, a hobby, anything and put all your effort into it. You must also keep reminding yourself, that you won't always be depressed, things will get better sometime and you won't feel bad. Life can change, even if it's in 5 days or 5 years. Don't miss out on the good times. :smile:
I think that's the trick. Find one positive thing you can do, to keep ther bad emotions away.
Having spent many years working with people with mental illness, as well as suffering from severe depression myself, this is a subject I have a lot of experience with. And from my experience, there is really two types of suicides. The first is the attention seeking attempt that went too far and the second is the genuine depression fueled.
Most suicides are of the first type. People are desperate, scared, and really want people to feel sorry for them. This is not to say they don't have a genuine mental illness, just the place they are coming from in their attempt. They are focused more on people feeling pity for them because they feel helpless. However deep in their subconscious they really don't want to die. It is that deep subconscious desire to live which is why their attempts are clumsy and often show many warning signs to all around them.
Those in this type usually lack poor coping skills to begin with but generally improve with therapy and in some cases medication. Their suicidal periods will diminish the longer they seek treatment and learn new skills to cope with situations.
This is also why many suicide prevention hotlines work. Because they are able to provide a person with some short term coping skills as well as convince them into entering treatment. Sadly however, there are several in this group that carry out an act of attention seeking that succeeds in their death.
The other type of suicide is a lot harder to prevent. These are people who are committed to their own destruction. The only way to prevent these is through one on one observation of that person 24 hours a day.
Seldom do they show warning signs or any indication of what they are intending. They are determined and often are only prevented from succeeding if found in time for medical treatment. These are often very sad and lonely deaths. I have known a few people of this type including a 3 people who were very close to me. In all cases, there is no way to prevent their attempts and any indication you give that you might will only result in their hiding their true emotional state from you. The only solution in these cases is sadly long term inpatient care, possibly for the rest of the person's life. Sometimes even this can not prevent them from succeeding.
Finally, I don't subscribe to the whole suicides go to hell crap. People driven to attempt such an act are already in their own personal hell to begin with so I doubt they would only get more of the same in the afterlife. Nor do I care to hear someone say it's a coward's way out. People who try to commit suicide are not cowards, just very ill people in need of help not scorn. They should be treated with the same care as you would treat an accident victim.
Another thing, having been to brink of the abyss myself when I was younger, (I tried to off myself a few times in my teens and early 20s) telling a person who just tried to kill themself or is about to try, how things are going to get better is waste of time. This really just adds to their stress and makes them more subject to carry out their intentions or try it again. Instead focus on them and listen to what they are saying. A person in a suicidal state is already convinced things aren't going to improve so telling them it will at that point is a waste of time, later when they are a bit more stable, yes, it needs to be mentioned. A person in the act of an attempt is going to expect things to change for the better instantly, so unless you can do that, avoid bring that up.
In my experience there is a third: a person that isn't depressed per se, or looking for attention, but rather SHAMED and would rather end it than face people who now know what they perceive as some dark, nasty secret. The suicide rate is HUGE for people within the first 48 hours of incarceration, and the same thing happens when people first are informed of a positive HIV or HCV test, as well as people who find out they contracted a venereal disease and could have given it to their spouse. The rate of suicide is much higher for people arrested for sex crimes such as SAM, soliciting prostitution, rape, even though those crimes are notoriously hard to prosecute and convict.
Quote from: ghouck on February 23, 2009, 02:39:15 PM
In my experience there is a third: a person that isn't depressed per se, or looking for attention, but rather SHAMED and would rather end it than face people who now know what they perceive as some dark, nasty secret. The suicide rate is HUGE for people within the first 48 hours of incarceration, and the same thing happens when people first are informed of a positive HIV or HCV test, as well as people who find out they contracted a venereal disease and could have given it to their spouse. The rate of suicide is much higher for people arrested for sex crimes such as SAM, soliciting prostitution, rape, even though those crimes are notoriously hard to prosecute and convict.
Being as I never worked much in or with anyone in Corrections beyond occasionally springing someone from jail to be placed in a inpatient treatment facility, I have to yield to your knowledge on this. However I will point out that again, poor coping skills seem to be the cause.
QuoteFinally, I don't subscribe to the whole suicides go to hell crap. People driven to attempt such an act are already in their own personal hell to begin with so I doubt they would only get more of the same in the afterlife. Nor do I care to hear someone say it's a coward's way out. People who try to commit suicide are not cowards, just very ill people in need of help not scorn.
I agree with you there 100%. Many people have the luxury of never knowing depression and can't imagine what a person goes through. Many people are delusional in their "If that were ME, what I would do is. . .". If you haven't lived the same life as someone else, you really don't know how you would react.
I find it sickening that buttheads like Tom Cruise, who makes tens of millions for s**tty acting a couple times a year can insinuate that people that are depressed or suicidal are lazy, cowardly, etc.
Quote from: meQal on February 23, 2009, 04:41:40 PM
Quote from: ghouck on February 23, 2009, 02:39:15 PM
In my experience there is a third: a person that isn't depressed per se, or looking for attention, but rather SHAMED and would rather end it than face people who now know what they perceive as some dark, nasty secret. The suicide rate is HUGE for people within the first 48 hours of incarceration, and the same thing happens when people first are informed of a positive HIV or HCV test, as well as people who find out they contracted a venereal disease and could have given it to their spouse. The rate of suicide is much higher for people arrested for sex crimes such as SAM, soliciting prostitution, rape, even though those crimes are notoriously hard to prosecute and convict.
Being as I never worked much in or with anyone in Corrections beyond occasionally springing someone from jail to be placed in a inpatient treatment facility, I have to yield to your knowledge on this. However I will point out that again, poor coping skills seem to be the cause.
I am currently a Correctional Officer, and have witnessed first hand what Ghouck describes.It doesnt happen too often at my prison, but often enough. Especially the guys that come in knowing they aren't coming out and don't have any hope, which is the most important part of getting by when things are hard. Depression takes that hope away. And as for the sex offenders, sometimes I think they kill themselves before anyone else gets to them, because in the prison, people are looked up to for hurting those guys. We usually see the most suicide attempts around the holidays, mostly Thanksgiving and Christmas, and when a long time spouse or girlfriend breaks up with the inmate.
As for my own thoughts about suicide, all I can say is I was lucky enough to see the light at the end of the tunnel. There was a point in my life, when I felt I could make it easier on everyone if I just went away. I think it was also Ghouck that said people ARE thinking of others at that point and I agree. I was 15, knew nothing about life, but thought I knew everything and had been kicked out by both parents in a back and forth kinda way. All I remember about how I felt was that there was no feeling, just a numbness and I remember thinking that I was just a machine, and every breath I took was a waste. One night, riding in the back seat of a car with some friends I decided that it was the night to end it all, and I wasnt going to tell anyone, I was just going to get home, and do it. As I looked to my left a van slowly passed by, and a little kid, probably 3 or 4 had his face to the glass, and was smiling the cheesiest smile at me. He waved and I dunno I felt this energy, like something telling me to hold out. I smiled and waved back, and slowly got better. They prescribed me with prozac and though it screwed up my sleep, it did help. just my 2 cents.