So here I go again sounding like a grumpy old man in my 30s... :lookingup: However this has been on my mind lately and it kind of goes along with the tipping thread.
I worked retail roughly for about 10 years for a popular chain store during my high school and college years. I put up with uneducated morons who got promoted to management, awful hours, low wages and the worst...a-hole customers. However, I always maintained a professional level of customer service. I went out of my way to help customers and be kind to them. I'm noticing nowadays, its hard to get a "hi" out of cashier when you go to pay for your item. Many times, employees act like your bothering them if you ask where the soap is in the store.
I guess my question is, has customer service in stores slipped? If so why?
It depends on where you go. I've seen at some, but I guess just some people don't care anymore. I worked in a grocery store for 2 and half years, and often got yelled at for my customer service. I'll admit I was pretty bad with customer service at first. However I think some of it was with my customers since I was working at one of the toughest stores in the area. Of course then once I switched to a desk job where I don't see the people I talk to I didn't have as many problems. I even ended up winning an award for my customer service skills a few years ago.
At times it's still good, but I think people maybe are just getting more jaded these days and not caring.
Excuse me if I go on a little rant, but:
Everything is the fault of the bad economy. Yet,
Newspaper not being delivered? No problem, 6 or 8 phone calls and we'll get it all straightened out.
Question about your credit card bill? No problem, we'll put you on hold for 90 minutes and then drop your call.
Computer problem? Don't worry, we'll put you on hold for half an hour, then connect you to some guy in India who barely speaks English and never saw a computer in his life before we sent him to that 3 day seminar.
Our profits are going down? Not our fault at all, it's the economy.
Depends. At electronic stores, I find they're just far too helpful. I know what I'm looking for (sometimes nothing in particular), I know what I'm looking at, and I'd just like to be left in peace. Be available to answer questions, but otherwise leave me alone.
On the other hand, go into a Home Depot, and it gets hard to find anyone. Well, if you're browsing power tools, they're all over you, but I've had to wander halfway across the store to find somebody to cut me a length of cable or thread a piece of pipe. And God forbid you should ask for anything that isn't relatively common, because service is only half the problem. The other half is the shortage of knowledgeable staff. Chances are, you'll get some guy who has no idea what you want and no desire to find it. My biggest peeve is asking for something and getting a bunch of wild guesses followed by BS. The guy will point to three or four completely wrong products, then fall back on excuses, suggesting you don't really need it or even that there is no such thing (because they aren't aware of it). That, to me, is the ultimate in bad service. Making the customer feel dumb because you can't help. Of course, Home Depot also has some helpful and knowledgeable staff. It's just a matter of who you end up with.
I find that often bad customer service means a company is struggling and you may find they're bankrupt soon. USAir has been through two bankruptcy's and has a real reputation for surly employees, though my recent experiences have mostly been OK. There was a local hardware store chain, Hechinger's in the DC area that was being forced out by the Home Depot chain. They used to be fantastic, generous customer return policy, everything you could want in a store. Toward the end it became a really unpleasant experience to go there and they finally folded.
I'm a public servant at the Dept. of Arts and Culture in South Africa (or as I once accidentally said to a client, "the Dept of arse and culture" :lookingup:) and I strive to give my clients the best service possible. This is appreciated by all.
I do find that service is slipping in SA: we have to pull our socks up for 2010 when the Soccer World Cup comes here.
I dig the input so far and I'd like to touch on a few subjects mentioned. I find too where you go and who you see is the big difference. For example, CVS Pharmacy up the road from me are always pleasant and don't overdo it. Target stores seems to stock friendly people and on a side note, I love their store layout. Classy yet not too posh.
However, places (cough Walmart cough cough) are simply awful in my area. Home Depot was mentioned by Andy C and yes, they're awful too in my area. I had an older clerk there walk away from me when I asked him a general question once.
I do believe, as mentioned in electronic stores, the employees are too overbearing. I know thats the management's fault though and won't fault the clerk usually. I call this generic customer service which to me translates "we care but leave your money and get the hell out of my store".
Another thing that bothers me is the stuff clerks talk about in front of customers. I've heard conversations about bongs, sex and wild parties. These are the kind of clerks that short change me and wonder why I get mad about it.
I guess a simple "hi" is all I'm looking for and general directions for an item if I need it. It seems in the past few years in certain stores thats getting harder to come by.
I just remembered one other trend that bugs the heck out of me. Remember when businesses opened in the morning ready to do business? And when businesses served customers right up to the time they closed?
Nowadays, you show up at opening time, and the staff are barely there ahead of you. You get in the door and everybody is too busy turning things on to help you. I once went into a one-hour photo place first thing in the morning, and was told the machinery needed half an hour to warm up. When you open for business, be ready to do business.
The other half of that is popping into the supermarket half an hour before closing and finding they've already got half the meat moved into the back, the deli is shut down (but you couldn't get anything anyway, because they were washing the slicer an hour before closing), and the cashiers are already eyeing the clock. Fifteen minutes later, people are starting to get their coats on.
This is also the fault of the owners, not the staff. It just bugs me that they do all of their housekeeping on my time while I can't get what I came for. Even if the owner won't pay staff to be there a little bit before opening and after closing, I'd be happy if they just revised their business hours to reflect the period when they actually have an operational store. But they want it both ways.
Quote from: Trevor on February 16, 2009, 10:17:04 AM
I'm a public servant at the Dept. of Arts and Culture in South Africa (or as I once accidentally said to a client, "the Dept of arse and culture" :lookingup:) and I strive to give my clients the best service possible. This is appreciated by all.
I do find that service is slipping in SA: we have to pull our socks up for 2010 when the Soccer World Cup comes here.
It's called
football, Trev'.
The thing that bugs me the most is when a store will have ads in the newspaper or signs hanging near the display racks describing a current sale or special offer. Then, when you ask an employee some details about it, they have no idea what you are talking about . . . sometimes they aren't even aware of the sale or special offer and need to call a supervisor. This indicates a lack of communication between store managers and employees . . . managers don't keep staff informed of promotional events.
Overall, I think at least 50% of the people who work in retail are there just for the paycheck and don't really care about customer service. I worked in retail for several years when I was in high school and college, so I've seen it first hand. You'd see someone working in a particular store in the mall, then a couple months later they'd be working in a different store because they were able to get 25 or 50 cents an hour more and maybe a better employee discount.
Also, I think companies sometimes alienate their employees. I worked for Florsheim Shoes (just call me Al Bundy) around 1990. We sold a certain style of socks that had a lifetime guarantee. If they ever wore out or got holes in them, you could exchange them for a new pair. One day a lady came in with about a dozen pairs of socks and wanted to exchange them. First of all, they were NOT the life time guarantee socks and second of all, they were NOT EVEN Florsheim socks. I could still see some of the white printing on the socks with style numbers and stuff and the codes were completely different from the codes used by Florsheim. I courteously explained that they were not Florsheim socks and I could not exchange them. She got mad and left the store. A couple days later I got a snotty phonecall from the corporate office asking why I refused to give the woman new socks. I said the socks she brought in were not even Florsheim products. The person from the corporate office just said, "Well, she is coming back and you need to exchange the socks for her." Of course, she DID come back with a big "I told you so" attitude and I had to give her brand new socks. If a company won't stand behind its employees when the employees are following policies, do you really think the employees will go the extra mile for the company when it comes to customer service?
Everyone is on the money with the places you mentioned. Home Depot is the worst. My grandfather was a union carpenter from most of his life and going with him to pick up stuff with him was always a disaster when asking for ANYTHING. They would never know what he was talking about. Most of the time we would just not ask and just walk around and look around and if we had to do any cutting we never asked for assistance we did it ourselves.
Another time my friend was looking for Kerosene. I told her don't bother asking because of the above past. She pulled that "I'm a man and I don't ask because" crap and what happend? a hour later know one knew what the hell we were talking about and after talking to a mananger that told us they don't sell it till winter. She finally stopped asking and we found a whole bunch of it the back. It had friggin 'Kerosene" written on it!
Electronic places are bit overbearing. Plus usually give bad advice like with RadioShack. Gamestop is actually good with that stuff. They don't bother you.
Radio Shack, now called The Source (ugh) in Canada, is a great example of a store that has all the problems of both an electronics store and a Home Depot.
In my area, customer service isn't always all that bad, IF you know who to ask. In WalMart, for example, ask an older person, not a kid. The young people don't understand the concept that when they are on the clock, they represent the company, not themselves. Older people remember this and are more often willing to go out of their way to help you (if you ask nicely). Home improvement stores (Home Depot, Lowe's, Sutherland's) usually don't have enough staff to offer good service, but there are a few there that are willing to help.
Around here, company policy/hiring procedures around here discourage most people from caring about the company they work for. There is a very pronounced "If you don't like it here, quit; there's always someone else looking for a job" attitude with management. As a result, most people look at their work as just a job and are willing to leave without notice for a slightly better position. However, there are a few places that are beginning to stress customer service again, and those are the stores I frequent. For example, there's a convenience store nearby that will give me free soda refills every once in a while (I bring in my mug, and yes, I drink way too much Dr Pepper), and the staff is generally very friendly. I will usually buy my gas there now, even when it's a couple of cents higher than down the road. They've got my loyalty because they treat me well. Other places (namely the biggest convenience store chain in my area) will never see me again because they treat customers like crap.
Since my livelihood now is all about customer service, I am careful to be polite and helpful to anyone who calls me or comes to my place of business. As a result, even though my social skills are limited, I have been praised for my customer service skills. One place I work (I do contract work in several places) even hired me because the owner liked the way I treated customers.
Quote from: Derf on February 17, 2009, 08:49:49 AM
will never see me again because they treat customers like crap.
I always believe that if I give good service, then the client will tell someone else about the service they got here and they'll tell someone else. Word of mouth is a good thing. :smile:
Quote from: Trevor on February 17, 2009, 09:00:54 AM
I always believe that if I give good service, then the client will tell someone else about the service they got here and they'll tell someone else. Word of mouth is a good thing. :smile:
You should read "How to Sell Anything to Anybody" by Joe Girard. He broke numerous records for car sales. In the book, he mentions
The Law of 150 (at least I think the number is 150). Anyway, his theory is that most people have a fairly solid connection to 150 other people. So if you treat someone (a customer) well, there is a decent chance that 150 people will hear about it through word-of-mouth. Same thing happens if you treat someone poorly. He mentions weddings as an example. A decent sized guest list for a wedding is about 150 people. If you like those people enough to invite them to your wedding, there is a chance some of your "good" and "bad" stories will make their way to these people either directly or through a chain of conversations. That's why aggravating even one customer may have larger implications than you think.
Quote from: AndyC on February 17, 2009, 08:46:20 AM
Radio Shack, now called The Source (ugh) in Canada, is a great example of a store that has all the problems of both an electronics store and a Home Depot.
Don't even get me started on them. The minute your big toe is in the store you hear "CAN I HELP YOU". Even if you're "just looking" they still hound you. Good generic customer service example. However they don't a candle to jewlery stores. You can't browse in those places for one minute without being hovered over.
I find the service is usually better where the employees work on commission. (Which is also reason number one capitalism works better than communism: incentive.)
Quote from: AndyC on February 16, 2009, 09:43:03 AM
Depends. At electronic stores, I find they're just far too helpful. I know what I'm looking for (sometimes nothing in particular), I know what I'm looking at, and I'd just like to be left in peace. Be available to answer questions, but otherwise leave me alone.
You know, I get that a lot when I'm roaming around the local Best Buy. So many clerks asking me if I needed help it got a bit creepy. In fact, I started to wonder if maybe they thought I was going to try and steal something, but I'll just assume they're following store policy until I hear otherwise...
Quote from: BeyondTheGrave on February 17, 2009, 02:24:16 AM
She pulled that "I'm a man and I don't ask because" crap
Yeah, well, sometimes when you're--wait, huh?!?
Here in Iowa, the service is almost always good.
I haven't had a bad customer service experience in a long time.
I personally have years of customer service job experience both on the phone and off.
When it comes to customers, I've heard it all.
The worst call I ever took was when I was a customer service rep for FTD Flowers back in 2000.
A man had sent flowers to a woman but she would not accept them because the florist was a Jew.
AWKWARD! :buggedout:
She was a serious anti-semite and nothing I could say or do would get her to accept the floral delivery. And because it was a small town, there were no other local florists I could call to fall back on.
I must've been on that call for well over an hour going back and forth between the racist recipient, the florist and the guy who ordered the flowers. (putting each on hold while I talked to one or the other)
In the end, we ended up cancelling the order and refunding the guy's money.
Whenever I'm asked in a job interview to describe a difficult customer service situation and how I dealt with it, I usually tell them that story.
Had to bring this thread back, because I had another wonderful Source (Radio Shack) experience. Normally, I order electronic parts online, but I was already in the mall and I didn't need anything special. I went in, walked back to the tiny section devoted to electronic parts, and found most of what I needed - a small circuit board, soldering iron tip, etc. As I was looking, I got the inevitable "Can I help you find anything?" Oddly enough, there happened to be something I wasn't seeing. So I told him I needed a breadboard.
Blank stare. "I assume you don't mean for cutting bread."
So, after explaining that a breadboard is a solderless prototyping board - a white thing with holes in it - he goes off to check the store website. Comes back a couple of minutes later to tell me they don't have anything like that. I give him credit for being honest about his ignorance, and not trying to make it my fault I asked for something unfamiliar to him. Sadly, that's a rare thing.
Honestly, I don't know why The Source/Radio Shack don't just get out of electronic parts entirely. They've got people who know nothing about it advising the customers, they carry next to nothing, and the selection they do offer is a weird hodgepodge of stuff that is lacking things as basic as a breadboard.
I believe customer service has slipped because of 1) ineffective, abusive management and 2) rude, idiotic customers.
When I worked retail (Lowe's), the management never, ever had a kind word for the employees. Not once. The theory seemed to be that productivity would go up the worse you treated the employees. It wore on everyone in the store and the quality of everyone's work eventually started slipping. If you're going to get treated like crap no matter how good a job you do, why spend any more effort than the bare minimum you absolutely have to?
As for the customers, I can count maybe five in the whole three years I worked at Lowe's who didn't come out of the gate acting hostile and angry toward me. Have you ever seen any of those "how to be an Alpha" websites? You know, the ones that encourage everyone to be the biggest possible prick at all times? That's more or less exactly how the average customer acted. Even if I got them exactly what they needed as soon as they asked for it, opened a register and checked them out myself so they wouldn't have to wait in line, and loaded it in their car, their parting shot would be an insult rather than "thank you". Again, if the customer is going to be a jerk no matter what, why bother putting forth anything but the bare minimum of effort?
Personally, I don't expect good service in retail establishments. Those people are only there because they can't get better jobs. By the time I go in, I've already done my own research, I know what I want, and I know where to get it. At most, I'd have to ask the employees to get something like an appliance for me.
Quote from: akiratubo on May 04, 2011, 10:05:29 AM
I believe customer service has slipped because of 1) ineffective, abusive management and 2) rude, idiotic customers.
When I worked retail (Lowe's), the management never, ever had a kind word for the employees. Not once. The theory seemed to be that productivity would go up the worse you treated the employees. It wore on everyone in the store and the quality of everyone's work eventually started slipping. If you're going to get treated like crap no matter how good a job you do, why spend any more effort than the bare minimum you absolutely have to?
As for the customers, I can count maybe five in the whole three years I worked at Lowe's who didn't come out of the gate acting hostile and angry toward me. Have you ever seen any of those "how to be an Alpha" websites? You know, the ones that encourage everyone to be the biggest possible prick at all times? That's more or less exactly how the average customer acted. Even if I got them exactly what they needed as soon as they asked for it, opened a register and checked them out myself so they wouldn't have to wait in line, and loaded it in their car, their parting shot would be an insult rather than "thank you". Again, if the customer is going to be a jerk no matter what, why bother putting forth anything but the bare minimum of effort?
Personally, I don't expect good service in retail establishments. Those people are only there because they can't get better jobs. By the time I go in, I've already done my own research, I know what I want, and I know where to get it. At most, I'd have to ask the employees to get something like an appliance for me.
True, the problem today is that most companies are set up to treat their lowest employees just well enough that they won't quit, and the employees do just enough that they won't get fired. No loyalty either way.
And like you, I also usually know what I want and whether the store has it before I go there. At most, I need somebody to show me where it is. I'm a pretty low-maintenance customer.
Quote from: akiratubo on May 04, 2011, 10:05:29 AM
I believe customer service has slipped because of 1) ineffective, abusive management and 2) rude, idiotic customers.
When I worked retail (Lowe's), the management never, ever had a kind word for the employees. Not once. The theory seemed to be that productivity would go up the worse you treated the employees. It wore on everyone in the store and the quality of everyone's work eventually started slipping. If you're going to get treated like crap no matter how good a job you do, why spend any more effort than the bare minimum you absolutely have to?
I think it is simply that managment is overly cautious about giving employees the idea that their performance is above expectations: the employee might then think they can ask for more pay or a promotion. Best to keep them humble, under your thumb and cheap.
It would take a geat deal of skill to make your employees feel good about their job and at the same time keep them from expecting or demanding raises or bonuses. That sort of skill - and its application - is all too uncommon these days, in all areas. (And likely very expensive in itself! Or so one would hope.)
Agreed, mgmt in stores today seem to have zero people skills but have no problem being a prick and cracking a whip. But if that were the case, wouldn't the custome service be better in fear of getting in trouble? I should mention to I've run into some ignorant @ssed managers in the past too who are worst than the employees.
Quote from: Newt on May 04, 2011, 11:41:22 AM
Quote from: akiratubo on May 04, 2011, 10:05:29 AM
I believe customer service has slipped because of 1) ineffective, abusive management and 2) rude, idiotic customers.
When I worked retail (Lowe's), the management never, ever had a kind word for the employees. Not once. The theory seemed to be that productivity would go up the worse you treated the employees. It wore on everyone in the store and the quality of everyone's work eventually started slipping. If you're going to get treated like crap no matter how good a job you do, why spend any more effort than the bare minimum you absolutely have to?
I think it is simply that managment is overly cautious about giving employees the idea that their performance is above expectations: the employee might then think they can ask for more pay or a promotion. Best to keep them humble, under your thumb and cheap.
It would take a geat deal of skill to make your employees feel good about their job and at the same time keep them from expecting or demanding raises or bonuses. That sort of skill - and its application - is all too uncommon these days, in all areas. (And likely very expensive in itself! Or so one would hope.)
Good point. I was listening to an interview with Dax Shepard and he was talking about how he used to work at a California Pizza Kitchen in L.A. while he was aspiring to be an actor. He went in for his first review and got an 8 out of 10 by his supervisor on punctuality, even though he had never been late once and was routinely 10 minutes early every shift. He said "I can't be more on time than I am, how am I not a 10?" He was given the typical lame excuse of "we have to give you something to aspire to." To which he replied "what do I have to do to get a ten, just never leave?" And then he went on to say that he quit, telling his boss he didn't want to work for a place that was just going to trick him into working harder by giving him less than a perfect score in something he was perfect in.
I've worked in retail and that is very typical. It's even very typical where I work in college admissions. I can be outstanding in a category, and in fact a standout, and still be labeled as "developing" in that skill. It's insane and, actually, quite insulting.
Quote from: AndyC on February 17, 2009, 08:46:20 AM
Radio Shack, now called The Source (ugh) in Canada, is a great example of a store that has all the problems of both an electronics store and a Home Depot.
The Radio Shack guys in my area are a bunch of smartasses. I went in to find a power cord for a Panasonic camcorder about 4 months back, and this guy is just sitting behind the counter, no "Hi, how's it going" or "Hi, can I help you."
I joked with him, saying "Help me Radio Shack, you're my only hope", and when I jokingly said "I wonder what movie THAT was from", the guy actually said to me, "no s**t, dude, I wasn't born yesterday."
When I told him to show more respect, he said, 'yeah yeah, what can I do for you'?
So when we got into it, the other guy comes out, and he was no better.
I asked for a power supply for a standard N. American wall outlet for a camcorder, and he kept asking me what voltage. Uh..DUH..the voltage used by N. Americans in their houses and places of business? Bunch of regular Einsteins..
Service has definitely slipped badly, especially in my country. Young people tend to go into hospitality/retail/food service because they do'nt need formal qualifications and the money is liveable (at least here). And all most want is money to party and travel.
I think most people see those jobs as subservient and belittling too so that doesn't help their attitudes either. And I will get into the generational debate and throw a few flame bombs here, but I really believe that the majority of Gen Y are as bad as the media portrays them to be. They want huge money for no skills and no work ethic and take it out on others when they dont get what they want.
Disclaimer: I also believe that not all Gen Ys are that way. I know young ones from both sides of the argument and there are good and bad everywhere.
I'll agree with you for the most part, KB, although I'm Gen X according to my birthdate.
However, I hate retail. Worked it for three years and, while a job is a job, I will never go back unless I absolutely had to.
I'm a fan of the the show Dirty Jobs, and the host, Mike Rowe, was being interviewed by Adam Carolla and they were talking about how nobody wants to get dirty anymore. People look at the dirty jobs as beneath them. Personally, I would find far more honor and satisfaction from some of the jobs on that show (worm castings rancher, tar roofer, cheese maker, pig farmer, etc.) than working retail. I worked in construction for a while doing framing, drywalling and finishing and always felt good at the end of the day, like I truly put in an honest day's work, and when you get home at the end of the day you tend to get treated as such.
Quote from: Flick James on May 05, 2011, 09:46:45 AM
I'll agree with you for the most part, KB, although I'm Gen X according to my birthdate.
However, I hate retail. Worked it for three years and, while a job is a job, I will never go back unless I absolutely had to.
I'm a fan of the the show Dirty Jobs, and the host, Mike Rowe, was being interviewed by Adam Carolla and they were talking about how nobody wants to get dirty anymore. People look at the dirty jobs as beneath them. Personally, I would find far more honor and satisfaction from some of the jobs on that show (worm castings rancher, tar roofer, cheese maker, pig farmer, etc.) than working retail. I worked in construction for a while doing framing, drywalling and finishing and always felt good at the end of the day, like I truly put in an honest day's work, and when you get home at the end of the day you tend to get treated as such.
I agree. I watch Dirty Jobs, and I see a lot of them as actually quite good jobs. Some look a bit tedious, but those also seem like the sort of jobs you can just crank up the tunes, chat with your coworkers and let your hands do the work until it's time to go home. Jobs like that are highly underrated. And many of the independent family-run companies strike me as sweet little businesses I'd love to own. One that struck me as a really good gig was the shoeshine man. Hardly any cost in equipment or materials, a simple service requiring a simple skill, lots of social interaction and stuff going on around him, and being in the lobby of a nice hotel, all those $8 shoe shines can add up to a reasonable living. Not a spectacular job, he won't get rich, and some might think tending to other people's feet is a lowly profession, but I really envied him. And I suppose being an independent businessman providing what most would consider a luxury service, there is a certain respectability there.
I've worked in a skilled profession, and after enough years of that, all I wanted was a job I could show up for, do for eight hours and leave.
I hate to sound so negative about it but I've come to the conclusion that to more and more businesses the customers are of little importance. It's revenue that they want. Every company that I've worked for, no matter how great a job they did at taking care of the customer when I started there, eventually decided that the best business practice was to give the customer as little as possible while taking as much of their money as possible.
Yes it seems that treating a customer well, giving them what they want, would insure a successful business. I guess successful isn't enough for many companies now. They want massive continued growth to a degree that seems unsustainable to me. My current company has cut so much staff that it can't help but effect the customer. It's not jsut cuts in customer service personell that hurt the customer, but cuts in engineering, billing, etc. mean the customer is going to get slower and sometimes incomplete service.
When I started working at Borders Books they were dedicated to being good book sellers. Selling books, as well as music and later movies was what they did, and they did it well. Everyone who worked there was a book person, music person, film buff etc. Then the stock spilt and the upper management went crazy. Everything became about chasing the market. Hours were cut, staff was cut and Borders starting hiring more and more management from outside the company. They hired managers who weren't book people but Big Box people. Borders wanted to become the #1 Big Box seller of books. But they didn't care that they were selling books, They could have been selling anything, automobile air-freshners for all the higher-ups cared. They just wanted that stock to go up. They gave up on what made them successful and just chased Wall Street. And look what that got them.
Believe me I understand how important it is to have a growing company with rising stock value. but that should happen as a result of having a good company, of delivering a good product or service. But delivering a good product or service can be expensive though, It's easier and cheaper to persuade people that they are getting a good product though advertising etc,. that it is to acutally deliver that product, or service.
I'm sure this comes off as a major rant but it's something that has bothered me for years.
Quote from: Hammock Rider on May 05, 2011, 03:54:54 PM
I hate to sound so negative about it but I've come to the conclusion that to more and more businesses the customers are of little importance. It's revenue that they want. Every company that I've worked for, no matter how great a job they did at taking care of the customer when I started there, eventually decided that the best business practice was to give the customer as little as possible while taking as much of their money as possible.
Yes it seems that treating a customer well, giving them what they want, would insure a successful business. I guess successful isn't enough for many companies now. They want massive continued growth to a degree that seems unsustainable to me. My current company has cut so much staff that it can't help but effect the customer. It's not jsut cuts in customer service personell that hurt the customer, but cuts in engineering, billing, etc. mean the customer is going to get slower and sometimes incomplete service.
When I started working at Borders Books they were dedicated to being good book sellers. Selling books, as well as music and later movies was what they did, and they did it well. Everyone who worked there was a book person, music person, film buff etc. Then the stock spilt and the upper management went crazy. Everything became about chasing the market. Hours were cut, staff was cut and Borders starting hiring more and more management from outside the company. They hired managers who weren't book people but Big Box people. Borders wanted to become the #1 Big Box seller of books. But they didn't care that they were selling books, They could have been selling anything, automobile air-freshners for all the higher-ups cared. They just wanted that stock to go up. They gave up on what made them successful and just chased Wall Street. And look what that got them.
Believe me I understand how important it is to have a growing company with rising stock value. but that should happen as a result of having a good company, of delivering a good product or service. But delivering a good product or service can be expensive though, It's easier and cheaper to persuade people that they are getting a good product though advertising etc,. that it is to acutally deliver that product, or service.
I'm sure this comes off as a major rant but it's something that has bothered me for years.
It's a good rant, HR, and it's true. The same thing happened at Guitar Center. I worked there for three years, right about the time the company went public. From the time I started, I witnessed an almost systematic degradation in customer service focus. It seems that once a company goes public, things begin to slide. I worked for GoDaddy.com, a great company to work for, and it's founder Bob Parsons, has flirted with going public a couple of times, and came very close at one point, before deciding against it. He was concerned about the same thing. The company is his baby and his legacy, and he treats it, and his employees, like gold. The customers get the positive residual effects of this. I'm sure there have been people who have had bad experiences with them, but overall the service is just outstanding.
The problem with public corporations is that the stockholders must be appeased no matter what. And so CEO's are under enormous pressure to keep stock value going up. And so, once the stock starts to flatline, they have to start cutting quality for the sake of profit to keep that line going up. Eventually, once that's exhausted, and the value of the product or service that once made the company great has been depleted of all it's worth, some start resorting to nefarious means inflate that stock until it collapses, and you end up with Enron and WorldCom. Another part of the problem is that these executives have enormous stock incentives as part of their compensation, and so they stand to gain by artificially pumping up that stock value.
I'm digressing a bit, but this system is a big part of what creates this gap in customer service of which you speak.
Much as I was saying in another thread about what is killing popular music. It seems there's a threshold a company - or even a whole industry - crosses, where it becomes so profitable, it becomes all about the profit. Once they get a taste, they want more, and generic business people start buying in because they smell a profit. To them, it's just another business, and they'll take their one-size-fits-all approach to it. And if it goes public, suddenly the company's concern is pleasing people who are even more detached, who buy and sell shares based not on liking the company or having any desire to be part of it, but on one fluctuating number. The company goes from being owned by somebody with an interest in it, to being part of a larger corporate entity, to being one of many assets in the portfolios of a whole bunch of faceless investors who might not even know or care exactly what they own a piece of.
And I've never understood the bizarre notion in big companies that being profitable is not enough. You have to meet some arbitrary level of profitability, even if it means cutting staff or reducing service to your customers. To me, if you bring in enough money to pay your bills, your employees and yourself, and have some left, you're doing fine. There's certainly no reason to take drastic steps to correct a supposed problem.
I also find that when a company becomes sufficiently large, it starts to operate in its own reality, pulling crap on its customers no small business would get away with.
Quote from: Flick James on May 05, 2011, 09:46:45 AM
I'll agree with you for the most part, KB, although I'm Gen X according to my birthdate.
However, I hate retail. Worked it for three years and, while a job is a job, I will never go back unless I absolutely had to.
I'm a fan of the the show Dirty Jobs, and the host, Mike Rowe, was being interviewed by Adam Carolla and they were talking about how nobody wants to get dirty anymore. People look at the dirty jobs as beneath them. Personally, I would find far more honor and satisfaction from some of the jobs on that show (worm castings rancher, tar roofer, cheese maker, pig farmer, etc.) than working retail. I worked in construction for a while doing framing, drywalling and finishing and always felt good at the end of the day, like I truly put in an honest day's work, and when you get home at the end of the day you tend to get treated as such.
That's very true. I worked as a waitress in a small local cafe many years ago. It was awful low paying work. But I liked the regular customers and I did my level best to make their dining experience an enjoyable one. That's why when I get good service I always thank them and tell them how great they've been. We don't have tipping in this country because the minimum wage isn't too bad, but I believe that praise doesn't always have to be monetary
I agree with what all you guys are saying. Businesses grow by offering quality products and good customer service. But once they get to a certain size they forget all about that, assume their customer base is guaranteed, and figure they can do whatever they want to maximize profits. It seems like the professional managers move in, and they don't plan on making a career out of working for this company - if they can run profits up by a good percentage over a year or two, who cares if they go bankrupt a few years after that? They'll have moved on to a different company by then.
All these "advanced management techniques" basically boil down to a get rich quick scheme.
The other problem is when companies get big enough, there's no longer a connection between bosses and customers. There are just so many customers, so many employees, so many locations, that you end up with this huge hierarchy, where the closer you get to the customer, the less authority the employee has. The people dealing with the customers have no authority, and the people directly above them don't have much more. There is this leadership vacuum where the people who can make decisions, and aren't afraid to make decisions, can't keep track of everybody and everything below them. You end up with the monkeys running the zoo, which can be good or bad for the customer. I mean, if employees have more autonomy, they can better please the customer, or they can really screw up. To fix that, the upper management (who insist on having the same level of control as the boss of a smaller business) don't pay for some decent middle management and delegate authority, they just set a lot of inflexible policies for everything, and expect the monkeys to run the zoo from inside their cages. So, a few bad customer experiences are replaced by a lot of really frustrating customer experiences. But they're frustrating in a consistent way, and in a manner dictated by the control freaks at the top, and that's what matters.
Contrast that to the smaller business, where the manager answers directly to the owner, they know first-hand what's going on, the employees have access to both of them, policies and expectations are communicated directly and in more of a two-way dialogue, not developed by a committee and compiled into a handbook of rigid rules. And when a customer has a problem the employee can't fix, the owner can come out of his office and try to make it right. When a business gets too big for a few people to control, customer service and working conditions will inevitably suffer.
Quote from: Hammock Rider on May 05, 2011, 03:54:54 PM
I hate to sound so negative about it but I've come to the conclusion that to more and more businesses the customers are of little importance. It's revenue that they want. Every company that I've worked for, no matter how great a job they did at taking care of the customer when I started there, eventually decided that the best business practice was to give the customer as little as possible while taking as much of their money as possible.
Yes it seems that treating a customer well, giving them what they want, would insure a successful business. I guess successful isn't enough for many companies now. They want massive continued growth to a degree that seems unsustainable to me. My current company has cut so much staff that it can't help but effect the customer. It's not jsut cuts in customer service personell that hurt the customer, but cuts in engineering, billing, etc. mean the customer is going to get slower and sometimes incomplete service.
When I started working at Borders Books they were dedicated to being good book sellers. Selling books, as well as music and later movies was what they did, and they did it well. Everyone who worked there was a book person, music person, film buff etc. Then the stock spilt and the upper management went crazy. Everything became about chasing the market. Hours were cut, staff was cut and Borders starting hiring more and more management from outside the company. They hired managers who weren't book people but Big Box people. Borders wanted to become the #1 Big Box seller of books. But they didn't care that they were selling books, They could have been selling anything, automobile air-freshners for all the higher-ups cared. They just wanted that stock to go up. They gave up on what made them successful and just chased Wall Street. And look what that got them.
Believe me I understand how important it is to have a growing company with rising stock value. but that should happen as a result of having a good company, of delivering a good product or service. But delivering a good product or service can be expensive though, It's easier and cheaper to persuade people that they are getting a good product though advertising etc,. that it is to acutally deliver that product, or service.
I'm sure this comes off as a major rant but it's something that has bothered me for years.
I agree with you, HR. Borders bookstores here were insanely expensive. I could get books cheaper from Borders in the US than I could in my own city. And the prices for DVDs were insane and insulting. We pay more for everything here anyway but books, DVDs and CDS are just abominable.
When you chase the almighty dollar it ALWAYS backfires. Hence Borders closing its doors left and right. I bought a Terry Pratchett hardcover novel for $27 from Borders instead of the $54 they were originally charging. :buggedout: But $27 is still too pricey for a hardcover book anyway.
There is an Aussie online men's undwerwear store and all the undies are made here in
Australia. They TV did an interview with the CEO and asked him why he didn't send everything offshore because it's cheaper. He said he doesn't need a huge salary to survive and he thought it was important to keep manufacturing jobs here in his own country. Then he went on about how CEOs and higher ups are greedy and they could keep more jobs in this country but they keep chasing the dollar.
I think I fell in love that day lol. His salary is $200K a year and he said if you can't survive on that kind of money, you need a good kick in the arse. And he's right. I could comfortably survive on that kind of money until my last second on this earth. And that would be a really schmicko kind of life too.
They never quite think it through, do they. When you send jobs overseas and pay your own employees as little as possible, you erode your own customer base. More people can't afford to buy what you're selling.
Cutting staff and cutting quality work in the short term. Higher prices work in the short term. They aren't sustainable over time. We wouldn't have nearly the ups and downs in the world economy if these idiots would stop chasing a quick buck and take a longer view.