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So seeing I just got clipped to ensure I won't father any more little DarkSiders, I figured I'd throw this out there.  I've been there for all three of my kid's births and...it really is for me the most gross experiences I've partaken in.  

Ok, put down your pitchforks...sure I was happy to see the babies and once they were clean holding them was the most special thing in the world.  HOWEVER, this is about the actual birthing process.   Stuff is gushing out, a head is where you're not use to seeing it and the smells are rather awful.  

I'd be interested to hear the thoughts from the moms on the board.  What was it like for you?  And for everyone who has witnessed it in person, did you see a vaginal delivery or C-section?

I happen to be here, so I will start:

I have three kids.  My husband was there for all three.  Averaged ten pounds each.  Had them the old-fashioned way and no drugs for pain relief (NOT by choice: they came too quickly).  Even so, I suspect strongly that I had an easier time than most.  I am not a small girl and I was in very good physical condition.

IMO women get fed a whole lot of propaganda about a lot of things: childbirth is one of the biggest.

And let's not get into how it is represented in movies.  :lookingup:

I think a good number of women end up feeling like monsters because they do not get that 'rush of love' at the first sight of their baby.  Yes there are hormones running amok, but for goodness' sake you just met and you've been through the ringer!

First of all, any shred of dignity you normally have claim to goes out the window.  It helps tremendously that the people helping you are experienced/professional so no attention is drawn to this.  I imagine it might be better for C-sections: just another surgery.

It was hard work and not fun.  It was the worst pain I have yet experienced - if someone had offered to shoot me I might have taken them up on it, just to make it stop (I remember thinking this at the time, with the first).  The best part was knowing it was over.  When you hold that baby, you know for certain that the pain is over - for now.  Maybe that is part of the rush they talk about?

While I was in labour with my first, one of the nurses said to me, "Oh, but it is GOOD pain!" and I told her she had some funny ideas about pain.

I was too occupied to notice any smells.  Funny, that, but I am just as glad I missed it!

And for any nurses out there, just a note: it might not be the best idea to say, "Look at the size of that HEAD!" at that point in the delivery.   :lookingup:

Of course kids are worth every bit of it.  But IME childbirth is not a pretty process.  How many bodily functions are?

There ya go. Move over DS.  Bring on the torches.

As always Newt, your response is well thought out, informative and I agree with it.  And bless you for having to do that three times with pretty big babies.  

The movies seem to make the whole thing out to be a rushed incident.  You're running to the hospital breathing hard and the baby slips out after an hour.  Nope...usually labor can last for much much longer than that.

I have 3 children all born by c section so I cant really relate.  :teddyr:  I did go through the fun stuff like contractions during my first but her heart rate started to drop with each one so after 11 hours I had my first c-section..

Second one I tried again and had the same problem so I didn't even try the third time around. Just set a date and went right into surgery. My husband was there for all three and even watched them pull them out.

I like to smooth over the trauma of my birth and abandonment to a hospital by telling people that there were almost five hours of darkness in Bulawayo, Rhodesia after my birth.

After the people have gotten enough of a scare, I tell them that I was born at 2h30 in the morning.   :smile:

Yeah it's gross.  I haven't seen it in person, but I did go to some pre-childbirth classes and watched some graphic videos.  This did NOT prepare me for childbirth in a good way, it only made me more nervous about it, especially when the instructor passed around a pair of forceps for us to examine.

The other thing that was a great cause of stress during my pregnancy was other mothers.  It seemed that every woman who had ever had a child, and especially those who had horrible experiences, felt the need to tell me about every unpleasant detail of their ordeal.  I was literally a wreck the whole 9 months crying and getting hysterical at least once a week because I was certain that my child would suffer brain damage from complications, I was going to go into labor in the most inconvenient place and time, be in labor for days, and I would poop in delivery (I heard this happens a lot).  The possibility of a c-section was also a concern because one of my cousins had recently passed away from a blood clot a couple days after having a c-section.

My experience wasn't that bad.  Two weeks before my due date, my baby turned – something I hear is rare that late in pregnancy, but it happened to my mother and sister too.  I was supposed to go in to schedule a c-section a week later, but I didn't make it. Due to the position of the baby (I assume), my contractions were weird, they were not evenly paced and all the pain was in my back, so at that point I just wanted them stopped as soon as possible.   I was only in the hospital for about 30 minutes before they gave me an emergency c-section.  My husband watched me get a spinal tap once and I saw him turn several shades of green, so it was agreed that my mom would go in with me.  She said it was pretty gross and she caught a glimpse of the doctors scooping a bunch of gore from my belly into a bucket.  It was very fast though, and I was in recovery about an hour after arriving at the hospital. 

I don't know if it was the drugs or the relief of being done, but I was very happy to see her!

One thing I was adamant about from day 1 though – NO PICTURES!  I can never understand why people want to take pictures or video tape that!  I know another popular thing is to have a giant mirror in the delivery room so the mother can see what's going on... no thanks!

I honestly think for me the worst expereince was the first one.  Especailly since I was going in rather glib to the situation.  I mean NOTHING can prepare you for what you are about to see. 

Hmm..  I do have some general thoughts.  Paquita mentioned her C-section.  It bothers me how readily doctors suggest them these days - often without truly informing mothers of their options.  I might mention it sounds like yours was very important, Paquita, as of course there are certainly many births where they SHOULD do one (and the availability of them is one of the most important reasons far fewer women now die in child birth), but the frequency going up so greatly in the past 40 years I think has more to do with doctor convenience and money (c-sections cost more, on average) than actual safety (point in fact, in general they are riskier - mothers are four times more likely to die from a C-section than natural birth, though this may be correlation not causation).  And doctors usually recommend a C-section to mothers who have had one in the past, despite the relatively low risks vaginal birth after c-section adds.  I think it also has to do with how cavalier doctor and social attitudes towards surgery have become.  I dunno.   

Another thought I find fascinating - giving birth with a good mid-wife is about as safe as giving birth in a hospital.  There are extra risks involved, but they're off-set by reduced risk of medical error and infections from other patients you get at a hospital.  Despite that, I'm not sure if I ever have children if I'd want to do the whole mid-wife thing.   :smile:

As far as actual child-birth goes - it's beautiful in a grotesque sort of way, like many things in nature.  I appreciate it for what it is - a long, extremely painful expansion of life. 

I will say I find the placenta to be one of the grossest looking things in the world though.  What's more, human placentas look A LOT grosser than some other placentas I've seen in nature films - what's the deal with that?

QuoteIt was the worst pain I have yet experienced

Newt, I remember asking my mother about the pain once.  She compared it to the worst charlie horse ever afflicting her entire torso for several hours (my sisters and I were quick - if you took all three of our separate births combined, I think it only adds up to about 12 hours).  Does that sound right?

Quote from: Jim H on July 11, 2010, 12:58:19 PM
...C-section.  It bothers me how readily doctors suggest them these days - often without truly informing mothers of their options. ... the frequency going up so greatly in the past 40 years I think has more to do with doctor convenience and money (c-sections cost more, on average) than actual safety (point in fact, in general they are riskier - mothers are four times more likely to die from a C-section than natural birth, though this may be correlation not causation).  And doctors usually recommend a C-section to mothers who have had one in the past, despite the relatively low risks vaginal birth after c-section adds.

JimH, my Dad was a family Dr who delivered over a thousand babies here in Canada and when he moved to the US wrote his boards and became an OB/GYN.  My brother was also an OB/GYN specialising in surgery.  Dad said that here in Canada he knew his colleagues were doing more sections years ago because it paid more - this was shortly after the advent of gov't health insurance.  So no doubt that is a realistic factor to some extent.   Dad found that in the US (he went there in 1979)  that medical students/new doctors were not taught HOW to deal with difficult births, so C-sections were their only realistic/safe option and  it seemed to him that most OB's were terribly cautious about attempting to deal with anything out of the ordinary.  I know it amazed him how few knew how to or were willing to try to turn a breech, for example.  I now he taught my brother a few techniques and that my brother became known for being able to successfully deal with some positional situations without resorting to surgery.

It most likely simply boils down to risk to the health care team in terms of liability: if the Dr takes any kind of chance (in common perception) it could end up a disaster for all; if he opts for the section then he's better covered.  

After a C-section, the risks to subsequent deliveries are real - delivering vaginally after a C-section is certainly possible, but it may take special handling (again: subject to a great deal of caution) and there may be reasons it cannot be done that way as a consequence of the original surgery. Not many Dr's are willing to take that on.

QuoteAnother thought I find fascinating - giving birth with a good mid-wife is about as safe as giving birth in a hospital.

There seems to be some re-asessment of that parity going on currently.

QuoteI will say I find the placenta to be one of the grossest looking things in the world though.  What's more, human placentas look A LOT grosser than some other placentas I've seen in nature films - what's the deal with that?

I have attended equine births and I found the equine afterbirth to be pretty gross.  But then, maybe that is due to sheer *volume* and the fact that I have to examine it carefully by hand and dispose of it (transported in a bucket.  UGH)  I do find the whole experience gives the overall impression of being tidier: not sure why that should be.  The price we pay for our big brains, I was told in Anthro class.   :wink:

Quote

QuoteIt was the worst pain I have yet experienced

Newt, I remember asking my mother about the pain once.  She compared it to the worst charlie horse ever afflicting her entire torso for several hours (my sisters and I were quick - if you took all three of our separate births combined, I think it only adds up to about 12 hours).  Does that sound right?

(*Only* 12 hours?  Easy for you to say!) Jim: it starts out slow and bearable.  In the beginning there are times between contractions when you can rest/recover.  Even that can wear a person down awfully quickly.   It is when things move along and there are no more breaks in the pains - it is continuous - that it can get a bit hairy.  It is very subjective, so the actual duration is not a good measure.  You have no control whatsoever over it and your body seems to be doing this *to* you; relentless.  Time seems to stand still and all the world is pain without the prospect of it ending.  You live in that moment.  At least the first time: after you have experienced childbirth once, you know (rationally) that it will end at some point and you can hold onto that thought - which is a darn good thing!

My second took a bit longer - it was an induction because my Dr was nervous about me going 'over' too long -  and was the most uncomfortable labour of the three.  So I had more than 12 hrs in total, I think.

My friends like to say that for every child a woman births, her man should sh*t a pumpkin.  I don't think that is quite equivalent: it's over too quickly; but it would make a good start.  :wink:

QuoteAs far as actual child-birth goes - it's beautiful in a grotesque sort of way, like many things in nature.  I appreciate it for what it is - a long, extremely painful expansion of life.

Like so many things, what it *is* in an intellectual, philosophical or emotional sense may be beautiful;  how it is on a purely practical level may be less than attractive.   :tongueout:

QuoteI will say I find the placenta to be one of the grossest looking things in the world though.  What's more, human placentas look A LOT grosser than some other placentas I've seen in nature films - what's the deal with that?

In some cultures they eat it.

Quote from: The DarkSider on July 11, 2010, 01:58:34 PM

QuoteI will say I find the placenta to be one of the grossest looking things in the world though.  What's more, human placentas look A LOT grosser than some other placentas I've seen in nature films - what's the deal with that?

In some cultures they eat it.

Speeds recovery - and very nutritious, I bet!  :tongueout:

(edited for spelling -  :lookingup:)

My wife delivered twins at 8 months and 10 days . . . almost full term.  The babies were small ( 5 lbs 8 oz and 6 lbs 2 oz) and both delivered vaginally after 18 hours of lighter labor and about 4 hours heavy labor.  I was there and saw the whole thing; the blood freaked me out a little bit, but I was delighted to hold me babies for the first time.  As soon as Patty got  out of recovery and began to realize that her stomach was no longer pushed up into an area the size of a small teacup, she demanded a Mustard whopper and a Dr. Pepper!  She finished about half of each and went to sleep for several hours!  It was a beautiful experience for me, but not a beautiful sight, if you know what I mean.


One of my more chauvenistic friends had this comment after being present for his child's birth:  "That baby done tore my playhouse UP!!!!"

My birth shocked me so much that I couldn't speak for 18 months.


Actually, my son was born three weeks early because my wife's water broke.  He only weighed 5 and half pounds and screamed like a banshee on his arrival.  The doc caught him like a football being hiked to the quarterback.

Our daughter, was a much quieter experience.  She weighed 6 and a half pounds and was very quiet when delivered.

She went natural with both, but not by choice. We went to the class about the epidural, but  both times her cervix dilated so quickly that it wouldn't have started working in time for the delivery.

I don't understand why there is a cultural thing to get men to go to the childbirth.  They have no understanding of all the things that are happening because it isn't and could never happen to them. They should wait in the hall pacing like in cartoons.

A comedian (I can't remember who) once observed:  "Men spend nine months trying to get out of a woman's vagina . . . and the rest of their lives trying to get back into one."

Quote from: lester1/2jr on July 11, 2010, 04:16:18 PM
I don't understand why there is a cultural thing to get men to go to the childbirth.  They have no understanding of all the things that are happening because it isn't and could never happen to them. They should wait in the hall pacing like in cartoons.

You know Lester, I absolutely have to agree with you on that.  Once again...bring on the pitchforks.  Back in the day men would drop their wives off at the hospital, go to work and come back when its all over.   Albeit I wouldn't do that, but I'd rather have waited outside when the time was near. I'll be honest, there was no reason for me to be in the room other than to "experience" the birth.  I held my wife's leg back but most of the time I spent reading or screwing around on the laptop.  I don't know why the new generation has to be involved in this.  

None of the above. :bouncegiggle:

Quote from: The DarkSider on July 11, 2010, 06:44:56 PM

Quote from: lester1/2jr on July 11, 2010, 04:16:18 PM
I don't understand why there is a cultural thing to get men to go to the childbirth.  They have no understanding of all the things that are happening because it isn't and could never happen to them. They should wait in the hall pacing like in cartoons.

You know Lester, I absolutely have to agree with you on that.  Once again...bring on the pitchforks.  Back in the day men would drop their wives off at the hospital, go to work and come back when its all over.   Albeit I wouldn't do that, but I'd rather have waited outside when the time was near. I'll be honest, there was no reason for me to be in the room other than to "experience" the birth.  I held my wife's leg back but most of the time I spent reading or screwing around on the laptop.  I don't know why the new generation has to be involved in this.  

My husband did a very good job of holding ice on my head for a while.  It really helped! I was so thirsty and hot, but I wasn't allowed to drink anything.  I'm really glad my mom was in for the gross stuff though.  I did need my husband's help afterwards, but he didn't need to be in the room for the grand entrance.

Quote from: The DarkSider on July 11, 2010, 06:44:56 PM

Quote from: lester1/2jr on July 11, 2010, 04:16:18 PM
I don't understand why there is a cultural thing to get men to go to the childbirth.  They have no understanding of all the things that are happening because it isn't and could never happen to them. They should wait in the hall pacing like in cartoons.

You know Lester, I absolutely have to agree with you on that.  Once again...bring on the pitchforks.  Back in the day men would drop their wives off at the hospital, go to work and come back when its all over.   Albeit I wouldn't do that, but I'd rather have waited outside when the time was near. I'll be honest, there was no reason for me to be in the room other than to "experience" the birth.  I held my wife's leg back but most of the time I spent reading or screwing around on the laptop.  I don't know why the new generation has to be involved in this.  

I can think of several reasons; none of which have anything at all to do with being an extra pair of hands helping out!

There has been a lot written over the years about the power of 'female mysteries' and how excluding men from them created resentment and tension between the sexes.  A little mystery is fine; but this is not necessarily the place for it.

Not their fault, but "back in the day" men were likely to have little appreciation or sympathy for what childbirth entailed.   A man who has seen for himself what his partner has just gone through is less likely to ask "so...when's dinner?" and "is the laundry done yet?".  At least for a day or three.  One hopes.

Modern dads are expected to participate more actively in early child care/rearing.  Being there for the birth itself may contribute to a feeling of responsibility or commitment to participating in the care of the child.  Diapers and spit-up are gross too.

How can one develop any understanding of anything if one is not there to observe and learn?  It might be argued that what is happening to your partner IS 'happening' to both of you.

Some people simply appreciate the presence of the person they care about most in the world.  Being surrounded in such an intimate moment by relative strangers could be frightening, 'cold' and lonely.  Yes, the male tends to see being 'useful' in terms of hands-on "what can I DO?" but if simply *being there* helps the mom it helps the birth process.  Not so useless.

And why the heck should any woman be expected to do this alone?  You were there at the beginning boys, it's only fair you should be there to share the resulting joy.  All of it.   :teddyr:

Quote from: The DarkSider on July 11, 2010, 06:44:56 PM

Quote from: lester1/2jr on July 11, 2010, 04:16:18 PM
I don't understand why there is a cultural thing to get men to go to the childbirth.  They have no understanding of all the things that are happening because it isn't and could never happen to them. They should wait in the hall pacing like in cartoons.

You know Lester, I absolutely have to agree with you on that.  Once again...bring on the pitchforks.  Back in the day men would drop their wives off at the hospital, go to work and come back when its all over.   Albeit I wouldn't do that, but I'd rather have waited outside when the time was near. I'll be honest, there was no reason for me to be in the room other than to "experience" the birth.  I held my wife's leg back but most of the time I spent reading or screwing around on the laptop.  I don't know why the new generation has to be involved in this.  

My wife's attitude is "Why in the world would I want you to see THAT?!?!"  Thank god.  I spent childbirth in the waiting room all three times.  I think the people who came up with the idea of guys watching this are the same ones who come up with stuff like elementary school kids shouldn't have best friends. 

QuoteModern dads are expected to participate more actively in early child care/rearing.  Being there for the birth itself may contribute to a feeling of responsibility or commitment to participating in the care of the child.  Diapers and spit-up are gross too.

Sorry Newt, this is where a lot of my frustration comes in with parenthood.  My father didn't do this and my father's father didn't do this and I don't know why it is prevalent in my generation that we have to do this.  IOW, I often feel the whole nurturing thing has been forced down my throat at times personally and my attitude is why now after all this time?  You and others may disagree with this following statement but I think by nature, men (in general) just don't have the skills ladies do with the infant nurturing thing.  I tend to look at what other animals do and most males really don't stick around after birth.  Either that or they eat their young. 

Of course I'm not implying humans do any of this and of course a father should be involved with the child's birth and development but I will say, based on myself and what other fathers have told me, dealing with infants is something women shine a lot more at than us.  Where a baby will cry a woman may say "aww whats wrong" but many men out there will react naturally with "ok whaddya want" 10x as much as most ladies do. 

No one has to agree with this by the way but its my theory. 

Quote from: The DarkSider on July 12, 2010, 08:57:01 AM
Either that or they eat their young. 

:buggedout: :buggedout: +  :teddyr: :teddyr:

My wife and I have had two boys. The first was very rough. 21 hours of labor, followed by a C-section that my poor wife felt. Yes, that's right, she could feel them cutting into her. It was excruciating just being there and holding her hand as she was crushing mine, just trying to fathom how f**ked up it was for her. And Newt brought up a good point. After all of that, and all my wife went through, she was not exactly elated to see the little guy. She was just too exhausted and frazzled. She actually started snoring as they were sewing her up, while I held our first son, bawling and sobbing like an insane person. I was just so relieved and exhausted and frazzled myself that I just couldn't contain the waterworks. My wife managed to bond with the little man for a short feeding before the both of them crashed into near comatose sleep.

Quote from: The DarkSider on July 12, 2010, 08:57:01 AM

QuoteModern dads are expected to participate more actively in early child care/rearing.  Being there for the birth itself may contribute to a feeling of responsibility or commitment to participating in the care of the child.  Diapers and spit-up are gross too.

Sorry Newt, this is where a lot of my frustration comes in with parenthood.  My father didn't do this and my father's father didn't do this and I don't know why it is prevalent in my generation that we have to do this.  IOW, I often feel the whole nurturing thing has been forced down my throat at times personally and my attitude is why now after all this time?  You and others may disagree with this following statement but I think by nature, men (in general) just don't have the skills ladies do with the infant nurturing thing.  I tend to look at what other animals do and most males really don't stick around after birth.  Either that or they eat their young.  

Of course I'm not implying humans do any of this and of course a father should be involved with the child's birth and development but I will say, based on myself and what other fathers have told me, dealing with infants is something women shine a lot more at than us.  Where a baby will cry a woman may say "aww whats wrong" but many men out there will react naturally with "ok whaddya want" 10x as much as most ladies do.  

No one has to agree with this by the way but its my theory.  

This from a man who nutures a vegetable garden plot?

So...DS: you don't ever change diapers, make meals, feed the kids, get up to do night feedings or to calm nightmares, tend them when they are sick, play with your kids, take them for walks, watch TV with them, bandage their scrapes, teach them a sport, read to them, make them feel safe or give them baths?  That's all part of child care and pretty darn nurturing in my book.  

Don't be sorry: we ALL experience frustrations with parenthood!  Female animals are known to eat their young too, you know.  :wink:

In the right circumstances (given the 'right' sort of cry) I have been known to say from across a room, "What's your damage?" or to tell the kids there had better be blood for all that fuss.  Women may well have a better ear for differentiating the import of cries and we certainly don't have to be all mushy about it every time!  

Part of what separates us from the animals is our capacity to learn and to overcome our apparently inborn limitations.  It is pretty impressive what humans can do and become when they want to.

If you attended the delivery simply because your wife wanted you there, that's all that matters.  We all do things we would very much rather not do, for the ones we love.   :thumbup:

QuoteSo...DS: you don't ever change diapers, make meals, feed the kids, get up to do night feedings or to calm nightmares, tend them when they are sick, play with your kids, take them for walks, watch TV with them, bandage their scrapes, teach them a sport, read to them, make them feel safe or give them baths?  That's all part of child care and pretty darn nurturing in my book. 

Definitely.  It is worth mentioning that the extra child rearing skills women possess are by-and-large social creations.  Not to say there isn't any biological basis, just that the large majority is cultural.  There is no reason fathers can't be just about as good of nurturers as women.  And having two parents doing this is better than one.

Quote from: Jim H on July 13, 2010, 04:50:16 AM

QuoteSo...DS: you don't ever change diapers, make meals, feed the kids, get up to do night feedings or to calm nightmares, tend them when they are sick, play with your kids, take them for walks, watch TV with them, bandage their scrapes, teach them a sport, read to them, make them feel safe or give them baths?  That's all part of child care and pretty darn nurturing in my book. 

Definitely.  It is worth mentioning that the extra child rearing skills women possess are by-and-large social creations.  Not to say there isn't any biological basis, just that the large majority is cultural.  There is no reason fathers can't be just about as good of nurturers as women.  And having two parents doing this is better than one.

And, I would also add to the rebuttal that there are MANY examples in nature of the male taking an active role in the child rearing.  MARCH OF THE PENGUINS anyone?  How about seahorses?  I could list many others, but will leave that as an exercise.

I'm always surprised when someone announces that species such-and-such mates for life or the males are actually "part" of the family routine - the part that surprises me is that the announcement most often sounds like "holy cow, listen to THIS!"  Like it is an unknown thing and this is a NEW result, but you'd think after making so many such announcements, they'd finally get the clue that it is everywhere.

A lot of anthropological 'theories' about human gender roles are not theories but wild speculation.  There is NO evolutionary driving force for the males to be inherently disinterested in bringing up the young.  There is no transcendental evidence for this elsewhere in the Animal Kingdom, in mammals or even in primates.

That SOME males are less nurturing is undoubtedly true; just like some females are less mothering than others.  Big deal.  But the notion that there is some inherent male trait that keeps all males from being either (a) capable or (b) interested in nurturing their own offspring is ridiculous on its face and is not supported by the evidence available.

Although I'm not a parent and/or father, I've been told to my face that I'm good with children and that children like me. This despite another thing that I have been told about myself that my eyes are very scary looking, which is actually BS, because children would be the first to scream and run away from me if they saw something like that in my eyes: hasn't happened yet.  :smile:

QuoteThis from a man who nutures a vegetable garden plot?

Veggies don't cry, whine or talk back Newt.  

QuoteSo...DS: you don't ever change diapers, make meals, feed the kids, get up to do night feedings or to calm nightmares, tend them when they are sick, play with your kids, take them for walks, watch TV with them, bandage their scrapes, teach them a sport, read to them, make them feel safe or give them baths?  That's all part of child care and pretty darn nurturing in my book.

QuoteThat SOME males are less nurturing is undoubtedly true; just like some females are less mothering than others.  Big deal.  But the notion that there is some inherent male trait that keeps all males from being either (a) capable or (b) interested in nurturing their own offspring is ridiculous on its face and is not supported by the evidence available.

To clarify my original point.  I honestly do enjoy taking care of the kids after the baby stage.  Its the first 3 months that proves to be challenge for me and regardless of your opion Ulthar which I respect, I feel it is a natural thing.  Do I have proof of this no but I know what I have felt.  I go by gut reaction which is one of "what do you want" when the baby is crying.   I (along with a lot of guys I know) don't tolerate the crying as well as most ladies do is my point. Hence why I dislike the first 3 months of taking care of a baby.  Ladies carry the baby, feel it growing in them and have the ability to offer life milk after birth.  Men simply are abscent to that connection from the get go.  

Listen, I'm not going to make this into a flame war discussion.  I stick by my opinion (although it may be wayyyy out there) and respect all of yours.  I just know what I've felt with all three of my kids in the first three months and a lot of guys I know feel the same way.

Quote from: The DarkSider on July 13, 2010, 07:33:01 AM

QuoteThis from a man who nutures a vegetable garden plot?

Veggies don't cry, whine or talk back Newt.  

QuoteSo...DS: you don't ever change diapers, make meals, feed the kids, get up to do night feedings or to calm nightmares, tend them when they are sick, play with your kids, take them for walks, watch TV with them, bandage their scrapes, teach them a sport, read to them, make them feel safe or give them baths?  That's all part of child care and pretty darn nurturing in my book.

QuoteThat SOME males are less nurturing is undoubtedly true; just like some females are less mothering than others.  Big deal.  But the notion that there is some inherent male trait that keeps all males from being either (a) capable or (b) interested in nurturing their own offspring is ridiculous on its face and is not supported by the evidence available.

To clarify my original point.  I honestly do enjoy taking care of the kids after the baby stage.  Its the first 3 months that proves to be challenge for me and regardless of your opion Ulthar which I respect, I feel it is a natural thing.  Do I have proof of this no but I know what I have felt.  I go by gut reaction which is one of "what do you want" when the baby is crying.   I (along with a lot of guys I know) don't tolerate the crying as well as most ladies do is my point. Hence why I dislike the first 3 months of taking care of a baby.  Ladies carry the baby, feel it growing in them and have the ability to offer life milk after birth.  Men simply are abscent to that connection from the get go.  

Listen, I'm not going to make this into a flame war discussion.  I stick by my opinion (although it may be wayyyy out there) and respect all of yours.  I just know what I've felt with all three of my kids in the first three months and a lot of guys I know feel the same way.

It sounds an awful lot like you're demonstrating the cultural argument that ulthar brought up. For you it is this way, but it sounds like that's part of your circle. I know this is going to sound judgement, but it is not. However, it does appear that you are projecting your life experiences as what is natural and the way things work. There are far more cultures amongst humanity and examples amongst nature that do not support what you're saying. On the other hand, just to prove that I'm not being judgemental, who knows, maybe the way your life works really IS the natural way human males are. I certainly don't know that any more than you do. There is just too much variation in the human experience to make that call. I have an uncle who was a very manly man who, in the 1950's in Missouri, single-handedly delivered his second child because he and his wife were in the middle of nowhere. In the same year he had helped deliver a calf. He had absolutely no experience in this area, but just reacted to the situation with his wits and instincts and rose to the challenge. Talk about being involved in the birthing process.

Anyway, I was involved with both our boys from day one on, every bit of it, and I wouldn't have it any other way. That doesn't make me less natural of a man.

Flick James  :thumbup:  I tend to side with R.A. Heinlein on the issue of human abilities (despite his ideas about women).

There are differences in how the sexes are 'wired'.  My father in law used to puff out his chest and brag that he had never in his life changed a diaper.  He would never lay a hand on a stroller, either, and was never known to hold any child or feed them etc.  He was born nearly a century ago.  You would think he was afraid babies would give him cooties.  It is not uncommon for males to feel incapable and unprepared when confronted with delicate, helpless little larval human beings.  Those feelings can be so discomfiting that strong impulses toward avoidance dominate.   A woman often does not have that option and often does not experience the same intensity of feelings in that direction.  Good thing, that, for the continuation of the species!

For myself, I tend to question the sanity of anyone, regardless of gender, who claims to actively enjoy the major portion of the first three months!
And I always found tolerating the crying to be a formidable challenge. Particularly when sleep-deprived.
But I did.  I had no choice.  Somebody had to be there and step up and be responsible for the child's care and well-being.  If my husband had not been willing to help out in every way that he could, I'm not sure how I would have coped.

(shrug) Guess I was a bad candidate for motherhood.  Infants per se do not turn me on.  Children as individuals do.

DS, I have no doubt that what you describe is natural for you and a lot of other males.  Nor am I inclined to make a judgement about rightness, goodness,etc.

What I do debate is any claim of universitality in humans or that no other counter examples exist 'in nature.'

I think that what Newt wrote above is spot on. Observing my wife with our infants, I did quickly come to appreciate that if I did not help, who else would provided the care?  She HAD to do it.

If there is a gender difference, I think it is one of maturity or responsibility in the face of unpleasant tasks.  Just like when we dispose of that nasty half decomposed mouse corpse or some such.

I don't think women are inherently 'weaker' when it comes to mice or bugs or spiders or whatever.

Honestly the first thing that tends to come to my mind...is better someone else than me. I have 0 desire to be a father at this point in my life even though I'm approaching my late 30s. Down the road it might change but that's the way it is right now.

Somehow, talking about maternal instincts, I was reminded of this sign.

(http://www.photobasement.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/notodumpster.jpg)

The point isn't that such things may not exist, just that differences in the sexes can be completely overridden by other concerns quite readily.

Generally speaking I'm in favor of it. :smile: