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"I wonder, frightenedly, if anyone has ever hated as intensely as myself--not other men or cultures or monuments or moments, but the sheer idiocy of living and the gutcord of Being about my throat that strangles off every flow of reason and sanity, and the very herringbone patterns of this time that relates me to nothing but the thing of me that thinks and realizes and terrifiedly causes me to know that it belongs to nothing, not stuff or woman or ideals; that belongs only to the next moment, and the next, like the springs of a clock, as even the mighty dourful regularity of Big Ben belongs only to the imbecile ages."

I wonder about this topic, because I am emphatically not a misanthropist.

Odd, because most of my beliefs do not disagree with a general distrust of humanity. But I have never seen that as a bad thing, just a general fact of life. I love the contrariness of humanity, even if I don't always enjoy its results.

But I find it very common in people to have a general belief that humanity is doomed because things just get worse and worse. It's a way of looking at the world, which may be true or not.

So you can answer this poll, even if my quick categories don't fit you, but do you think that humanity in general is going the way of the dodo? Are the people around you doomed?

The world's always going through its ups and downs.  The Mongols invaded most of Europe, the Roman empire declined and fell, the Black Death wiped out two-thirds of the population, there were a couple of world wars, etc.  But we're still here and doing pretty darned good.  6.8 billion people with 6.8 billion competing interests don't make for very smooth sailing, but we move forward and things generally get a whole lot better over time. 

I have very little confidence in the goodness of human nature, but infinite confidence in the goodness of God.  So I enjoy life as best I can, and hope things improve while not really expecting them to.

Humanity is a belligerent species that's seemingly hell bent on bringing about its own destruction sooner rather than later.

Take a look who seems to be overly fertile.........the folks on Murray.  I, uh, yeah...the gene pool is getting muddy.

I have very little faith in the human population.

So I just sit here in my room most of the time.

I'm with indy on this one, except that I think it will take a lot of work to "save" humanity even with God's help. People, at least in America, seem to be determined to reduce life to an animalistic level: eat, poop and procreate (or at least practice at procreation). We have elevated sex to the be all and end all of existence, almost to the exclusion of our higher brain functions. We alternate between hedonism and nihilism, and ridicule anyone with ambitions of self-betterment, labeling him as a religious nut case or a hippie freak or whatever. Compromise is diminishing, and we exalt forcing beliefs on others, whether it be "believe in my god" or "keep your beliefs to yourself" (i.e., practice your beliefs only in a way that is acceptable to me).

I'm not really as bitter as this post makes me sound, but this is how I see people behaving on general terms. There are good people out there, but we don't hear about them; we hear only about the misanthropes and the dregs of humanity. Reports on people doing good things either solicit a momentary "Awwww, isn't that sweet" and then are forgotten, or else are met with suspicion and an expectation that the do-gooder is secretly banging farm animals or some such. I don't have a solution; I, as a Christian, can only trust that God has a plan. I know that isn't a suitable approach for everyone on this board, but that is how I am.

There are changes that need to be made, certainly, but we're still doing better than our ancestors for the most part. Wars? Worldwide peacetime has actually been quite rare in human history, so that's nothing new (but we could probably work harder to reduce the number of major conflicts). Stupid people? There have always been stupid people, and they have always bred like rabbits...and yet we still have plenty of fairly intelligent to brilliant people. Some of them have even come from dumb families.

Education is generally more accessible than ever, homosexuality isn't illegal in every country anymore (some even allow gay marriage), it's possible for women to support themselves without selling their bodies in more countries than ever before, people can live longer and healthier lives, and you can legally voice your dissent without risking your safety in more parts of the world.

We're doing okay. The news just makes the world seem like crap because they filter out all but the most pointless "good news" stories (and even then those only get shown near the end of the broadcast) because they know bad news sells.

We will prevail.  But it was easier in the 1950s when John Agar and Richard Denning were around to fight the monsters.

Quote from: indianasmith on November 18, 2011, 08:01:47 AM
I have very little confidence in the goodness of human nature, but infinite confidence in the goodness of God.  So I enjoy life as best I can, and hope things improve while not really expecting them to.

Amen! My thoughts exactly. :smile:

We've survived many things as a race before the past, right now I think we'll come out this as well.  As for society getting stupider, frankly I think the stupid and wicked are getting more attention than the intellgent and civil individuals.

"In spite of everything, I still believe that people are really good at heart."
Ann Frank

Quote from: Derf on November 18, 2011, 09:11:32 AM
I'm with indy on this one, except that I think it will take a lot of work to "save" humanity even with God's help. People, at least in America, seem to be determined to reduce life to an animalistic level: eat, poop and procreate (or at least practice at procreation). We have elevated sex to the be all and end all of existence, almost to the exclusion of our higher brain functions. We alternate between hedonism and nihilism, and ridicule anyone with ambitions of self-betterment, labeling him as a religious nut case or a hippie freak or whatever. Compromise is diminishing, and we exalt forcing beliefs on others, whether it be "believe in my god" or "keep your beliefs to yourself" (i.e., practice your beliefs only in a way that is acceptable to me).

"The media is like the weather, only it's man-made weather." -Natural Born Killers

Here's my take: We have a national story that permeates society, but it's the story that this mass communication of the media has fostered upon us. It's a story purely told for entertainment value, and it is perpetrated by mass media conglomerates because it is the fastest, quickest way to make money. If you buy into it, and so many people do, you might believe that the highest aspirations of American society is exemplified by people like the Kardashians and hoping you make it through American Idol try-outs.

But that story isn't the reality. I cut myself out of that story, I don't watch bad television, I get my news from other sources than broadcast television.

Now I can get back to real people I know, not these know-nothing nobodies glamorized on television. I make it my business to surround myself with smart, funny people. That's why I have hope for humanity, because I know actual people who are smart, literate and actually create things of value. If you talk to those people, who are everywhere, you don't need to worry about the stupidity of vapid entertainment.

The real work of humanity is done by those who don't chase fame like a heroin high, it's done by your next-door neighbor who really cares about whatever they are doing.

Quote from: Raffine on November 18, 2011, 01:03:16 PM
"In spite of everything, I still believe that people are really good at heart."
Ann Frank

I'll go with that.

Quote from: Mofo Rising on November 20, 2011, 03:10:28 AM

Quote from: Derf on November 18, 2011, 09:11:32 AM
I'm with indy on this one, except that I think it will take a lot of work to "save" humanity even with God's help. People, at least in America, seem to be determined to reduce life to an animalistic level: eat, poop and procreate (or at least practice at procreation). We have elevated sex to the be all and end all of existence, almost to the exclusion of our higher brain functions. We alternate between hedonism and nihilism, and ridicule anyone with ambitions of self-betterment, labeling him as a religious nut case or a hippie freak or whatever. Compromise is diminishing, and we exalt forcing beliefs on others, whether it be "believe in my god" or "keep your beliefs to yourself" (i.e., practice your beliefs only in a way that is acceptable to me).

"The media is like the weather, only it's man-made weather." -Natural Born Killers

Here's my take: We have a national story that permeates society, but it's the story that this mass communication of the media has fostered upon us. It's a story purely told for entertainment value, and it is perpetrated by mass media conglomerates because it is the fastest, quickest way to make money. If you buy into it, and so many people do, you might believe that the highest aspirations of American society is exemplified by people like the Kardashians and hoping you make it through American Idol try-outs.

But that story isn't the reality. I cut myself out of that story, I don't watch bad television, I get my news from other sources than broadcast television.

Now I can get back to real people I know, not these know-nothing nobodies glamorized on television. I make it my business to surround myself with smart, funny people. That's why I have hope for humanity, because I know actual people who are smart, literate and actually create things of value. If you talk to those people, who are everywhere, you don't need to worry about the stupidity of vapid entertainment.

The real work of humanity is done by those who don't chase fame like a heroin high, it's done by your next-door neighbor who really cares about whatever they are doing.

Mofo: thank you for a very encouraging post.  :thumbup:

Derf: As a parent of younger children (two teens and a young 20's) I struggle with this on a daily basis.  I sometimes wonder if by 'buying' the picture of modern society that is presented to us, we are being sucked in by what it portrays just as much as the people who seem to 'buy' it as a map of the way 'everybody' lives?  IOW: the media tells us that that is the way life is/the way to success;  and we despair because it looks as though the majority do subscribe to that.  What if it is not as prevalent as the media would have us believe...what if Mofo's 'actual people' are truly a silent majority?  I have to find hope in that: which helps me to help my kids grow strong.

I have long suspected that one of the mistakes the terrorists made in planning 9/11 was that they 'bought into' the way the western media presents Western society.  It led them to believe the US could be brought to its knees by striking at certain icons.  They were wrong.

Quote from: Newt on November 20, 2011, 07:38:12 AM
Mofo: thank you for a very encouraging post.  :thumbup:

Derf: As a parent of younger children (two teens and a young 20's) I struggle with this on a daily basis.  I sometimes wonder if by 'buying' the picture of modern society that is presented to us, we are being sucked in by what it portrays just as much as the people who seem to 'buy' it as a map of the way 'everybody' lives?  IOW: the media tells us that that is the way life is/the way to success;  and we despair because it looks as though the majority do subscribe to that.  What if it is not as prevalent as the media would have us believe...what if Mofo's 'actual people' are truly a silent majority?  I have to find hope in that: which helps me to help my kids grow strong.

I have long suspected that one of the mistakes the terrorists made in planning 9/11 was that they 'bought into' the way the western media presents Western society.  It led them to believe the US could be brought to its knees by striking at certain icons.  They were wrong.

I said in my original post that I wasn't as bitter as I sounded, and that is the truth; I was mostly lamenting the way, as Mofo put it, we are presented in our national story. Unfortunately, I live in an economically depressed area, and many people I encounter do indeed buy into this story. These are not the people who get things done. I try to surround myself with the smart, funny, capable people. They are distressingly few around here, or at least my ability to find them is limited. It often seems that when I do find them, and am lucky enough to work with them, our supervisor/manager is one of those who has bought into Mofo's national story and who seems hell-bent on making life for those doing the actual work a nightmare. I honestly do my best to maintain a positive attitude in the face of these people; sometimes, however, it seems they are winning. I had to quit the job I had been at for the last nine months because the corporate bigwigs were doing unethical/possibly illegal things, and the local office manager is one who believes the best way to motivate people is to browbeat them into submission and then act like their best friend five minutes later. Neither of these are the type of people I want around me, so I left. I'm not sure if I can believe that Mofo's "actual people" are in fact a silent majority, but I know they are the ones who keep things going, and I do my best to remain with them.

I said I wasn't bitter, and then I went on another whining binge. I do struggle sometimes, but overall I have faith that we will survive and thrive as a species. I have said before that I must be an optimist; otherwise I wouldn't be so constantly disappointed in the choices people make.  :twirl: I have also been called arrogant for saying that.

There have been some really excellent points made in this thread.  Thanks to all that have posted!  

One of my favorite web sites on the 'Net is called sailfar.net, which is basically a group of small boat sailors and dreamers - folks who 'dream big' but live 'normal' lives.

One of the many reasons I like it is the encouraging, totally positive nature of the community.  Open ocean sailing on a small boat can be a dangerous endeavor, and all-too-often, folks are quick to say "no way, don't do it."  The slick magazines with the fancy pictures sell "cruising" in a fashion that limits all but those with 7 figure incomes and trust-fund inheritance.

The pop message?  "You cannot "go" without {insert of BUNCH of expensive gadgets and BIG BOATS}!  Don't you DARE try it otherwise!"

But at sailfar, there is a community of people who say, "yes, you can.  You can follow your dream.  There is a way.  You don't HAVE to break the bank, you don't have to follow that path."  The Road Less Traveled is not only do-able, but DESIRABLE.

It struck me a couple of years ago the importance of surrounding yourself with friends like this (as has been mentioned in the thread already).  Turn off the TV - it's poison - or at least be VERY selective about what you watch, and meet and spend time with REAL people(**)....the rewards are fantastic.

With a few notable (and obvious exceptions), I am noticing the same thing with the Internet...too much of it is spiritual poison, though I find myself thankful for the very real friendships I have developed via this medium.

(**) On Edit:  Clarification.  I have met several of the folks on sailfar in real life, and they have been very deep, very solid friendships.  I would trust my life (and that of my family) to some of these people...in fact, I have on several occasions.  Just wanted to clear up an apparent contradiction - 'meet real people' after espousing a web forum...   :wink:

Quote from: ulthar on November 20, 2011, 08:01:48 PM
There have been some really excellent points made in this thread.  Thanks to all that have posted!  

One of my favorite web sites on the 'Net is called sailfar.net, which is basically a group of small boat sailors and dreamers - folks who 'dream big' but live 'normal' lives.

One of the many reasons I like it is the encouraging, totally positive nature of the community.  Open ocean sailing on a small boat can be a dangerous endeavor, and all-too-often, folks are quick to say "no way, don't do it."  The slick magazines with the fancy pictures sell "cruising" in a fashion that limits all but those with 7 figure incomes and trust-fund inheritance.

The pop message?  "You cannot "go" without {insert of BUNCH of expensive gadgets and BIG BOATS}!  Don't you DARE try it otherwise!"

But at sailfar, there is a community of people who say, "yes, you can.  You can follow your dream.  There is a way.  You don't HAVE to break the bank, you don't have to follow that path."  The Road Less Traveled is not only do-able, but DESIRABLE.

It struck me a couple of years ago the importance of surrounding yourself with friends like this (as has been mentioned in the thread already).  Turn off the TV - it's poison - or at least be VERY selective about what you watch, and meet and spend time with REAL people(**)....the rewards are fantastic.

With a few notable (and obvious exceptions), I am noticing the same thing with the Internet...too much of it is spiritual poison, though I find myself thankful for the very real friendships I have developed via this medium.

(**) On Edit:  Clarification.  I have met several of the folks on sailfar in real life, and they have been very deep, very solid friendships.  I would trust my life (and that of my family) to some of these people...in fact, I have on several occasions.  Just wanted to clear up an apparent contradiction - 'meet real people' after espousing a web forum...   :wink:

I just read an essay a while ago that suggested that the constant bombardment of media in our lives can numb us to the harm it can do as the human mind tries to protect itself against this sort of inadvertent attack. I don't know if there's any real mental damage done, but I do find that I and quite a few other people feel overwhelmed with all this advertising and the constant pressure to be connected all the time.

The best remedy I've found is to either get out of the city for a bit with my phone off or, if that's not possible, to take a quiet day or evening off to keep most of my electronics off except for something playing some good, gentle music. Everyone's got different ways of coping and escaping, and I think that's something we all need to find.

It will be interesting to see where society goes from here. I can be somewhat misanthropic, but I don't take it that seriously. I can be an inflammatory a***ole sometimes too, but I don't take that as seriously as it might seem either.

The "prophets" have been saying that doomsday is "right around the corner" or "coming soon" or "at hand" or "on such-and-such" date for thousands of years. As such I can't take the current 2012 paranoia or general predictions about armageddon any more seriously, although they are dubious times. I do think that we are a historic crossroads in terms of the global standing the Western world that most of us here share. But the predictions of doomsday don't concern me much, because every one so far has been dead wrong. To me, doomsday predictions seem to be aimed at filling churches or selling something.

If you have values, you've given them careful thought and are reasonably sure they are healthy and good, then all you can do is follow them and keep your eyes open. The rest is our of our hands.

  I'd like to be optimistic about the future, but we've invented too many ways to wipe ourselves out for me to feel good about that. I know that people have predicted the end of the world for thousands of years now, and that "good and bad times" not only seem to ebb and flow but are also very subjective to the person experiencing them. What I think is different now days is that we've developed ways to actually render our planet uninhabitable for humans. I know it sounds like any one of dozens of sci-fi movies but I think we've gotten to the point where we could really kill ourselves off.

  I'm not just talking about the use of nuclear weapons or global warming. Look at that huge oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico a few years ago. How many more of those can we handle? And yet the drilling continues. How many more Fukushima meltdowns can we survive?  How much longer will fossil fuels last? Toxic additives to our enviroment seem to increase every year.Things like diabetes and high blood pressure are at epidemic highs, even in kids. We're ranked painfully low in math, science and reading scores as our country's educational system seems to be failing.

  I think we're in the process of poisoning ourselves and the sad part is that it looks like we're bringing all these problems down on ourselves. I don't think things will get much better until the majority realize there is a problem with the way we aere living and are willing to do something about it.

Quote from: Hammock Rider on November 21, 2011, 01:24:50 PM

our country's educational system seems to be failing.

No, it's not.  It is functioning exactly as it was designed to.

http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/historytour/history1.htm

Quote from: Derf on November 20, 2011, 09:05:45 AM
I said in my original post that I wasn't as bitter as I sounded, and that is the truth; I was mostly lamenting the way, as Mofo put it, we are presented in our national story. Unfortunately, I live in an economically depressed area, and many people I encounter do indeed buy into this story. These are not the people who get things done. I try to surround myself with the smart, funny, capable people. They are distressingly few around here, or at least my ability to find them is limited.

Well, I should say the majority of people I know are still "economically disadvantaged," to put it too politely. I consider myself lucky because I was able to put myself through school full-time, and that connection has made me able to meet a large amount of people across a much larger spectrum than I thought I would have been able to. Some have money, some are struggling, others are just brilliant freaks of nature.

What I detest is lazy cynicism. Don't get me wrong, I have a large amount of cynicism, but it's an optimistic cynicism, if that oxymoron makes sense. But that outlook, just to look at the world and say, "This sucks" with a finality that ends argument. I hate, hate that. It adds nothing to the world, and it's a sure-fire method to find yourself a failure.

ulthar's example of the sailing website is fantastic. It's just the sort of thing I look for.

I never want to hear somebody's lazy disappointment with the world. I love to hear somebody talk passionately about something they care about. And it doesn't really matter to me what the topic is, as long as the person cares about it and works to create it. My interest is the boundaries of science, but if my friend is telling me about his efforts to create a landscaping business for himself, I'm just as interested.

It sounds mean to say, but I guess it's just a matter of avoiding people who give up and live in black holes of negativity. That's a boring dead-end street. But then I meet people who are putting themselves out there and trying something, anything. It doesn't need to be something that's world-changing, just something--something better than nothing.

Those people are invigorating, and I choose to seek those people out.

I should probably clarify my remark about living in an "economically disadvantaged" area. I should have said "economically and educationally disadvantaged." South Texas has some of the poorest attitudes about education I have encountered, and that, mixed with the economic disadvantages, leads many to buy into the "national story" as the only hope they know to escape their poverty. They aren't bad or even necessarily stupid people, but they are unaware of many of life's wonders, so intelligent, thought-provoking conversation is sometimes difficult to find. That is one reason I continue to frequent this forum: The people here tend to be positive, intelligent and, gosh darn it, all-around good eggs. I don't always agree with them, but I am often called on to think about my own opinions and either confirm or modify them as needed. The fact that such a place as this can exist on the overwhelmingly negative internet is definitely a bright spot in my existence. I know I don't really post that much, but I do consider many of you to be friends, a label I don't use lightly or often. Group Hug! You guys give me hope for humanity.

QuoteBut that outlook, just to look at the world and say, "This sucks" with a finality that ends argument. I hate, hate that. It adds nothing to the world, and it's a sure-fire method to find yourself a failure.

Well, that's little more, if any more, than nihilism, Mofo, and I detest it too. My cynicism at least tends to have a point. If I wrote the Thesaurus, I would include crybaby as a synonym for nihilist.

I am at this very moment listening to "Jocko Homo" by Devo.

Significant?  You be the judge...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1DX3hw_9A0 

yes yes yes 

no no no

Quote from: Flick James on November 22, 2011, 03:20:30 PM

QuoteBut that outlook, just to look at the world and say, "This sucks" with a finality that ends argument. I hate, hate that. It adds nothing to the world, and it's a sure-fire method to find yourself a failure.

Well, that's little more, if any more, than nihilism, Mofo, and I detest it too. My cynicism at least tends to have a point. If I wrote the Thesaurus, I would include crybaby as a synonym for nihilist.

No, it's worse than that. To pervert the words of the wise Walter Sobchak (http://www.imdb.com/character/ch0003521/), "Say what you will about the tenets of Nihilism, at least it's an ethos." The apathetic laziness of any random comments page on a YouTube video is so much worse. They don't even have the comfort of an all-encompassing philosophy about the world's worthlessness. It's just a lazy, apathetic response to nothing.

Real nihilism would be a welcome response compared to the vapidity of those comments.

Quote from: Mofo Rising on November 25, 2011, 02:19:06 AM

No, it's worse than that. To pervert the words of the wise Walter Sobchak (http://www.imdb.com/character/ch0003521/), "Say what you will about the tenets of Nihilism, at least it's an ethos." The apathetic laziness of any random comments page on a YouTube video is so much worse. They don't even have the comfort of an all-encompassing philosophy about the world's worthlessness. It's just a lazy, apathetic response to nothing.

Real nihilism would be a welcome response compared to the vapidity of those comments.

It's hampered, too, by the 20-20 hindsight culture we have where everything is second-guessed.  So, to counter that attitude, I like this quote:

"Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."

--Theodore Roosevelt

Paraphrasing...better to screw up doing something than to sit around doing nothing.  Or, bad decisions are better than indecision.  Or, grow a pair and dare to fail.

I think apathy is bred; it doesn't just happen.  When the entire culture finds joy, excitement and entertainment in 'laying blame,' well, sooner or later, people will stop trying.  This applies to 'thinking' as well as 'doing.'

It's greed, and an everyone for themselves attitude that's bringing us down.

Quote from: Allhallowsday on November 24, 2011, 11:59:28 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1DX3hw_9A0 

yes yes yes 

no no no

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_s53Hk1KBY&feature=related