69 years ago today, what was left of Nazi Germany surrendered unconditionally to the Allies.
Thanks to the Greatest Generation for saving the world. :cheers:
Quote from: indianasmith on May 08, 2014, 11:22:09 PM
69 years ago today, what was left of Nazi Germany surrendered unconditionally to the Allies.
Thanks to the Greatest Generation for saving the world. :cheers:
And then we had the subsequent spread of Communism after capitulation to Uncle Joe at the Yalta conference. And for that, we got the Berlin wall, the Warsaw Pact, the Cuban Missile Crisis (and WW3 nearly starting as a result) as well as a Third World ripe with Soviet weaponry, cheaply armed in return for the establishment of Communist beachheads in the countries in question. One door shuts another opens, so I guess we still have 6 in one hand and half a dozen in the other. It never changes, it just changes hands..
Thank you.
(http://www.sherv.net/cm/emoticons/war/smiley-shooting-tank.gif)
My Grandfather was a WW2 veteran. US Army.
Quote from: VenomX73 on May 09, 2014, 10:49:41 AM
Thank you.
(http://www.sherv.net/cm/emoticons/war/smiley-shooting-tank.gif)
My Grandfather was a WW2 veteran. US Army.
My statement about Communism was not in disrespect to the American soldiers who gave their lives of WW2.
I apologize if it appeared that way. I was just stating that the end of one system opened the door for another that did, and still does, threaten the world today.
Indeed, my grandfathers on both sides served, and my grandmother (mother's side) had a cousin who was a POW of the Germans. We should be happy that things worked out how they did, but also remember that the threats of today are much worse.
Its cool, but I was quoting indianasmith's post though. I didn't see your's till after I posted :thumbup:
I agree with Umaril. As great as my dad's generation performed, mankind always finds a way to screw up a chance to improve...(sigh)...
My dad was a Navy aviation mechanic (Prop Specilist) in the war, up in Attu and Sitka Alaska.
In fairness to FDR and his administration, what were we going to do? Leave off fighting the Germans and turn on our allies, the Soviets, who had already lost 20 million killed in the war? Stalin was a brutal thug, but his armies outnumbered ours and were on the ground already in Eastern Europe. There wasn't much we could do except bow to the fait accompli at that point. I think FDR was very naïve concerning Stalin, but he died before he realized just how wrong he actually was about the man.
Quote from: indianasmith on May 09, 2014, 07:08:42 PM
In fairness to FDR and his administration, what were we going to do? Leave off fighting the Germans and turn on our allies, the Soviets, who had already lost 20 million killed in the war? Stalin was a brutal thug, but his armies outnumbered ours and were on the ground already in Eastern Europe. There wasn't much we could do except bow to the fait accompli at that point. I think FDR was very naïve concerning Stalin, but he died before he realized just how wrong he actually was about the man.
As usual, Indy, what you say is historically true. But, with all due respect, there was a
lot we could have done to repel the Soviets in
post WW2 Germany if not WW2 Germany. Let me engage in some speculation based on some fact.
1:
Patton's idea of a U.S. and Allied coalition bolstered by rehabilitated German and Axis forces could have worked. It was revolutionary.
We had the infantry numbers, logistics,
and the German prototype technology. We could have perfected the prototype German tech with the help of their captured scientists and mass produced that tech and deployed it among specially trained units as well as former Axis personnel already familiar with the original weapons and aircraft.
2:
A sustained strike on Russian logistics already weakened by Germany:
A military is nothing without it's logistical support. Millions of Russians without vehicles and supply trains and fuel depots won't get far if the perfected-mass produced German prototype weapons carried out deep strikes on Russian logistical positions. This would have isolated Soviet units already in Germany and effectively cut them off from rescue and left any force marching on Germany totally isolated. Call in the U.S. Air Force, sit back, and watch Boris run for his life...
3: Assuming we win,
we re-join Germany as a whole country under Allied NATO membership and pardon all Axis and non-Nazi German military personnel and reintegrate them into their respective societies. A whole Germany would be a perfect buffer against future incursions.
4: Militarize
all Eastern European NATO countries bordered with Russia, bolster them with U.S. bases and jack the hell out of their defenses.
De-militarize
all borders these countries share with Russia.
5: Extend the JDF to allow US-Japanese military bases not only in Japan, but the Kuril Islands to ensure no back-door actions by Russia OR a possible Communist Chinese move.
Leave the sea of Japan as Allied-Japanese property and maintain a regular patrol of the South China sea to monitor China, Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia.
Of course, keeping our Allies would be easier than getting them, but that's where we would need to respect them and their individuality all the while working for the US and a better world. It would all start with that.
I see your point - but stabbing an ally in the back and joining with the Germans immediately after defeating them is just odious. It would have invalidated the whole point of the war, to save Europe from the Nazis. How can we maintain the idea that we are the "good guys" if we treat the people who sacrificed 20 million lives to crush Hitler like that? I understand Stalin was a bad dude, and Soviet Russia became almost as bad as Nazi Germany. I just don't think that justifies the course of action Patton recommended.
For once I agree with Indy-Stalin WAS a scumbag-he was buddies at one time with Hitler-!
But Hitler and the Nazis???? The WORST idiots ever-evil beyond belief-the Nazi party was based on pure EVIL.
I cant stress the word EVIl enough to describe their beliefs,what they did to people-how self centered they were-f**k em.
I HATE NAZIS. :hatred:
I saw a show on PBS a while back-about how even now-some of the German folks think that the foot soldiers didnt know what they were getting into-like they were innocent shmucks.
BULLs**t.
Hitler spouted his racist rhetoric crap all the time-he wrote in Mein Kampf exactly what he meant to do-and all good Germans had the book.
The soldiers werent dumb little kids-they knew. It was slaughter-I een pics of foot soldiers-not SS troops-smiling as they look at dogs eating the feet of hanging Jews.
Of course I've seen pics of American soldiers hanging out playing fun with dead Viet Cong-but thats another story.
One of the things I love about my job is getting to talk to Veterans from many conflicts. I have more fun with the ones from the Vietnam era because I'm way more functional with the culture of the 50s and 60s and 70s, but there is something both charming and sad about talking to WWII Vets. So many of them are just happy to talk to another human that they will tell you jokes and stories, and I love them. But some of them are also so utterly haunted by what happened during the war that it breaks your heart. To think of someone still troubled by events that took place over 60 years ago...they are far stronger than I know I am.
Say hello to an older Veteran and spend a minute of your time to talk to them. Most of them will treat you like their best buddy, just because of your kindness.
I have talked to a lot of World War II vets, and even had a chance, back in the 1990's, to interview some surviving vets of World War I. They are all gone now, and the WWII vets will follow them.
Thanks for the props, Ronnie! Hitler had a remarkable gift for telling people what they wanted to hear. That was what made him so popular when he had no education, no achievements to speak of, and no social standing. His rhetoric inflamed the people, and told them someone else was to blame for their woes.
A lot of people who followed him came to regret it, and as strongly as I condemn his regime, I salute the courage of Stauffenberg, Canaris, and the others who tried to take him out on several occasions and nearly succeeded in July 1944.
I will say this much - while virtually every family in Germany owned a copy of Mein Kampf, very few people read it all the way through. It is one of the most unreadable best-sellers of all time. Hitler could NOT write worth a flip!!!
Quote from: indianasmith on May 10, 2014, 02:41:27 PM
I have talked to a lot of World War II vets, and even had a chance, back in the 1990's, to interview some surviving vets of World War I. They are all gone now, and the WWII vets will follow them.
Thanks for the props, Ronnie! Hitler had a remarkable gift for telling people what they wanted to hear. That was what made him so popular when he had no education, no achievements to speak of, and no social standing. His rhetoric inflamed the people, and told them someone else was to blame for their woes.
A lot of people who followed him came to regret it, and as strongly as I condemn his regime, I salute the courage of Stauffenberg, Canaris, and the others who tried to take him out on several occasions and nearly succeeded in July 1944.
I will say this much - while virtually every family in Germany owned a copy of Mein Kampf, very few people read it all the way through. It is one of the most unreadable best-sellers of all time. Hitler could NOT write worth a flip!!!
Too bad he didn't stick with painting. He was pretty good at that.
Quote from: indianasmith on May 10, 2014, 11:38:41 AM
I see your point - but stabbing an ally in the back and joining with the Germans immediately after defeating them is just odious. It would have invalidated the whole point of the war, to save Europe from the Nazis. How can we maintain the idea that we are the "good guys" if we treat the people who sacrificed 20 million lives to crush Hitler like that? I understand Stalin was a bad dude, and Soviet Russia became almost as bad as Nazi Germany. I just don't think that justifies the course of action Patton recommended.
Well, these same "20 million guys" belonged to the system that almost srated WW3 in October of 1962. I'm simply suggesting that Communism's eradication would have saved a lot of post WW2 lives including the 55,000 good men and women who fought in Vietnam, as well as the ones in Korea from '50 to '53.
Quote from: indianasmith on May 10, 2014, 11:38:41 AMHow can we maintain the idea that we are the "good guys" if we treat the people who sacrificed 20 million lives to crush Hitler like that?
Props to you as always, but as we can see, from our "good guy role", WE always wind up getting stabbed in the back. I used to be sold on the good guy image (and we
are, to be sure) but it's just that you can't get stabbed in the back so many times without starting to feel it. That starts to hurt a bit, y' know..
But the fact remains we DIDN'T have World War III in 1962, or any day since. And while the 200,000 or so troops we lost in Vietnam and Korea were indeed a tragedy - not to mention the 2 million Vietnamese, Chinese, and Koreans that died in those conflicts - an all-out War with the Soviets in 1945 would have cost millions of lives on BOTH sides.
Quote from: RCMerchant on May 10, 2014, 12:05:24 PM
I saw a show on PBS a while back-about how even now-some of the German folks think that the foot soldiers didnt know what they were getting into-like they were innocent shmucks. The soldiers werent dumb little kids-they knew. It was slaughter-I een pics of foot soldiers-not SS troops-smiling as they look at dogs eating the feet of hanging Jews.
BULLs**t.
As a man from a German-American family, I would please ask that you not associate all Germans with the Nazis. I had relatives who fought and died for Germany on WW2.
Quote from: RCMerchant on May 10, 2014, 12:05:24 PMOf course I've seen pics of American soldiers hanging out playing fun with dead Viet Cong-but that's another story.
Why is it different with Vietcong? Desecration of
any soldier's body (or a POW or camp prisoner) is
wrong. Regardless of what army they represent, a soldier's belongings are sacred, from his rifle right down to the boots that he put 1,000 miles or more in. Two wrongs don't make a right no matter what army it is, WW2 or Vietnam, or
now.
Quote from: indianasmith on May 11, 2014, 07:38:35 AM
But the fact remains we DIDN'T have World War III in 1962, or any day since. And while the 200,000 or so troops we lost in Vietnam and Korea were indeed a tragedy - not to mention the 2 million Vietnamese, Chinese, and Koreans that died in those conflicts - an all-out War with the Soviets in 1945 would have cost millions of lives on BOTH sides.
I'll agree with that, to be sure.
I was just engaging in some speculation based on Germany's prototype super weapons. They literally began the space race and the arms race before the Cold War.
If Von Braun and other former Axis scientists worked with our guys, they could have taken the Horten B-36, the Messerschmitt fighters and the King Tiger (among others) they could have perfected them and made them even more formidable (as well as
our stuff too.)
Deep strikes on logistics would have made the difference as I said before. And while more people would have died, I feel the Sov's would have gotten the worst of it.
For the sake of more speculation, Russian troops would have had a Coalition-bolstered Poland and Slovakia to go thru, and for sake of the operation, a rehabilitated German-bolstered Finland (which was the object of Stalin's Winter War in 1939.) Switzerland, which was a German-speaking pro-gun state had over 750,000 registered gun owners at the time and would have bolstered places such as Norway and Denmark in a Scandinavian coalition.
Yes, a lot of people would have died, but the Russians would have gotten the worst of it.
Anyhow, just some speculative ideas, so kids,
don't try this at home! :buggedout:
Quote from: Umaril Has Returned on May 11, 2014, 08:21:30 AM
Quote from: indianasmith on May 11, 2014, 07:38:35 AM
But the fact remains we DIDN'T have World War III in 1962, or any day since. And while the 200,000 or so troops we lost in Vietnam and Korea were indeed a tragedy - not to mention the 2 million Vietnamese, Chinese, and Koreans that died in those conflicts - an all-out War with the Soviets in 1945 would have cost millions of lives on BOTH sides.
I'll agree with that, to be sure.
I was just engaging in some speculation based on Germany's prototype super weapons. They literally began the space race and the arms race before the Cold War.
If Von Braun and other former Axis scientists worked with our guys, they could have taken the Horten B-36, the Messerschmitt fighters and the King Tiger (among others) they could have perfected them and made them even more formidable (as well as our stuff too.)
Deep strikes on logistics would have made the difference as I said before. And while more people would have died, I feel the Sov's would have gotten the worst of it.
For the sake of more speculation, Russian troops would have had a Coalition-bolstered Poland and Slovakia to go thru, and for sake of the operation, a rehabilitated German-bolstered Finland (which was the object of Stalin's Winter War in 1939.) Switzerland, which was a German-speaking pro-gun state had over 750,000 registered gun owners at the time and would have bolstered places such as Norway and Denmark in a Scandinavian coalition.
Yes, a lot of people would have died, but the Russians would have gotten the worst of it.
Anyhow, just some speculative ideas, so kids, don't try this at home! :buggedout:
There is some talk of von braun and other project paperclip victims actually staying in contact with some of their scientist friends that had been taken by the russians & others, during the cold war. Letters were sent from military bases containing high level rocket schematics and stuff like that, in
the height of the cold war - that always highly amuses me I really should check if it's true.
S'true about super weapons, V2 first object in space and then just after WW2 the Americans failed at least once trying to get some pictures back using them. Also I strongly believe given a bit more time they would have had the first stealth fighter in the world way before the F-117, infact some people speculate that the 117 was based in nazi prototypes. *x-files music* xD I could talk about this all day
Quote from: Josso on May 11, 2014, 08:27:17 AM
Quote from: Umaril Has Returned on May 11, 2014, 08:21:30 AM
Quote from: indianasmith on May 11, 2014, 07:38:35 AM
But the fact remains we DIDN'T have World War III in 1962, or any day since. And while the 200,000 or so troops we lost in Vietnam and Korea were indeed a tragedy - not to mention the 2 million Vietnamese, Chinese, and Koreans that died in those conflicts - an all-out War with the Soviets in 1945 would have cost millions of lives on BOTH sides.
I'll agree with that, to be sure.
I was just engaging in some speculation based on Germany's prototype super weapons. They literally began the space race and the arms race before the Cold War.
If Von Braun and other former Axis scientists worked with our guys, they could have taken the Horten B-36, the Messerschmitt fighters and the King Tiger (among others) they could have perfected them and made them even more formidable (as well as our stuff too.)
Deep strikes on logistics would have made the difference as I said before. And while more people would have died, I feel the Sov's would have gotten the worst of it.
For the sake of more speculation, Russian troops would have had a Coalition-bolstered Poland and Slovakia to go thru, and for sake of the operation, a rehabilitated German-bolstered Finland (which was the object of Stalin's Winter War in 1939.) Switzerland, which was a German-speaking pro-gun state had over 750,000 registered gun owners at the time and would have bolstered places such as Norway and Denmark in a Scandinavian coalition.
Yes, a lot of people would have died, but the Russians would have gotten the worst of it.
Anyhow, just some speculative ideas, so kids, don't try this at home! :buggedout:
There is some talk of von braun and other project paperclip victims actually staying in contact with some of their scientist friends that had been taken by the russians & others, during the cold war. Letters were sent from military bases containing high level rocket schematics and stuff like that, in the height of the cold war - that always highly amuses me I really should check if it's true.
S'true about super weapons, V2 first object in space and then just after WW2 the Americans failed at least once trying to get some pictures back using them. Also I strongly believe given a bit more time they would have had the first stealth fighter in the world way before the F-117, infact some people speculate that the 117 was based in nazi prototypes. *x-files music* xD I could talk about this all day
Josso, the aircraft you speak of is the Horten B-36. Indeed, it was the basis for the F-117 Nightstorm. The plane already had stealth capability in it at it's creation, but whether or not it was a by-product of the design, or intended, is still a matter of speculation. Be that as it may, no one can argue with the results.
The German
Sturmgewehr 44 (or 44 Assault weapon) was effective to 700 feet, and the 30-rounds and 3-rate selective fire feature nearly rendered the M-1 Garand useless due to saturation-fire capabilities. The selective fire feature made it the first assault weapon. The Russians used it's features to create the AK-47. It is the premiere assault weapon and it's impact upon modern weaponry cannot be denied.
People can say what they want about Germany (and as a German-American man whose had to live with BS guilt trips all my life, I've had to put up with this) but no one can take away Germany's influence upon tactics, weapons, and tech. They re-wrote the book.
That's the one! Thanks for the info, it's a really interesting part of history. also I didn't know about the AK-47 roots - that doesn't actually surprise me too much at this stage
As far as tech weapons go-I saw (on pbs,again) a show called Nazi mega weapons-they tried to make this huge,monster tank! DAM! And given enuff time-who knows-they brought jets into warfare-and little is known of the Bell-but I think the USA goverment knows more than they speak of...like what crashed in Pennslyvania in the 60's.
Hell-we gave Nazi scientists a green light over here just to mine their brains.
Politics has no morals.
Quote from: RCMerchant on May 11, 2014, 09:18:52 AMHell-we gave Nazi scientists a green light over here just to mine their brains.
That statement really reminds me of this incident:
QuoteA member of the team of expatriated German scientists who conducted the Hermes II flight test later was quoted as saying: "We were the first German unit to not only infiltrate the United States, but to attack Mexico from US soil!" Not nearly so amused, the Army tightened-up range safety protocol at WSPG in the aftermath of the international incident.
http://www.whiteeagleaerospace.com/the-hermes-ii-incident/ (http://www.whiteeagleaerospace.com/the-hermes-ii-incident/)
Quote from: Josso on May 11, 2014, 09:16:18 AM
That's the one! Thanks for the info, it's a really interesting part of history. also I didn't know about the AK-47 roots - that doesn't actually surprise me too much at this stage
One look at both weapons and you can see the resemblance:
http://youtu.be/9z-cQ8wQTUk (http://youtu.be/9z-cQ8wQTUk)
I gotta give the Nazis credit-they were always trying theyre damed best to find bigger and better ways to kill as many people as possible.
Umaril-I'm not trying to lay a guilt trip on the German people-hell-Hitler took a lesson from the good old USA-look at what we did to the American Indians-but that generation of people in that place and at that time had a f**ked up mind set.
And the good old USA-and slavery? The USA like to tout their the 'good guys"- Nazi Germany is not the first country to commit genocide-they just did it with up to date tech. Of course when s**t wasnt available-they just lined them up near big ditches and shot em.
The thing is-Hitler had the cult of personality about him-its a dam good thing Pokemen didnt tell people to kill people or we would all be in a world of s**t. Our kids would be grown up and killing us all!
Hitler was like a rock star in 1930's Germany-and the influnce of mass propaganda cannot be understated-Goebbels was a master of this-they f**king worshiped this guy. It was like a religious fever. They got caught up in it-its a sad fact of life that folks leave common sense behind when mass hysteria grips them.
Definitely I mean like at North Korea for the last 50 years
Quote from: RCMerchant on May 11, 2014, 09:35:52 AM
I gotta give the Nazis credit-they were always trying theyre damed best to find bigger and better ways to kill as many people as possible.
Well, for my final reply on this subject, I'll say this:
Zweiter Weltkrieg (or World War 2 in English) was something that
shouldn't have happened. But there were reasons, regardless of what the "winners" write about history.
Post WW1:
The Treaty Of Versailles was a legal writ of extortion and revenge based on military, cultural and political rivalries that promoted the opposite of the "peace" and "prosperity" it was supposed to promote in Germany. Prostitution, unemployment, and vigilantes ruled post WW1 Germany while the Allies lived off of Germany and grew rich as Germans became poorer.
Pre-WW2:
At the height of Germany's destitution, almost 12 million were out of work. Add to this, the additional poverty when in 1933, the Daily Express headline read: "Judea Declares War On Germany".
Was it worth the Holocaust?
NO. However, that single act hurt and humiliated Germans who worked their asses off since 1929 to become the
first country to get out of the Great Depression, as well as re-igniting anti-Semitic anger that was brewing since around 1920.
Nearly 20 years of
poverty,
broken promises and
humiliation at the hands of their military and political rivals is what caused that anger Hitler took advantage of. No matter how much the Western powers see themselves as 'the good guys' what they did in this case was wrong.
If you hold down, humiliate and demoralize a people and hide behind a treaty that further neuters them, and antagonize them while doing it
you are going to live with the consequences sooner or later. Those consequences?
World War Two.
If anything, WW2 should be a lesson about giving respect and dignity to a fallen foe, and ensuring that they become productive members of society, instead of howling unwashed mobs full of anger and hatred. Had we done that to begin with, Hitler
may have been a world-class painter
and not a man who nearly destroyed the world.
Thanks for listening. God bless
all veterans of
all wars.
Well said,my freind.
But the fact remains-you dont experiment on children -torture people-play God for being repressed-the american blacks have LOTS to be angry about-as well as the American Indians-but taking over the world is not in the Indian agenda. They did the Ghost Dance and died. The German people-and I have German blood in my veins-are a great nation who did much for the world-and they shouldn't be marked for the big stain that Nazi Germany cursed them with. But It is what it is-just as the USA committed mass genocide way before Hitler was even born. Just as the Catholic Church did with the Crusades-ideology trumps,it seems.
Very sad.
Quote from: RCMerchant on May 11, 2014, 09:56:37 AM
Umaril-I'm not trying to lay a guilt trip on the German people-hell-Hitler took a lesson from the good old USA-look at what we did to the American Indians-but that generation of people in that place and at that time had a f**ked up mind set.
And the good old USA-and slavery? The USA like to tout their the 'good guys"- Nazi Germany is not the first country to commit genocide-they just did it with up to date tech. Of course when s**t wasnt available-they just lined them up near big ditches and shot em.
Fair enough, but as far as "ditches filled with bodies", we forget the Killing Fields in Cambodia, and we forget that we were winning Vietnam in Cambodia's own backyard
until we deserted a potential ally due to pressure over allegations of violation of neutrality. Yet these same people overlooked that N. Vietnam was circumventing the DMZ thru Cambodia as well. I mention Pol Pot and the Killing Fields because it's one the UN and the world tend to forget...
Quote from: Umaril Has Returned on May 11, 2014, 11:47:51 AM
Quote from: RCMerchant on May 11, 2014, 09:56:37 AM
Umaril-I'm not trying to lay a guilt trip on the German people-hell-Hitler took a lesson from the good old USA-look at what we did to the American Indians-but that generation of people in that place and at that time had a f**ked up mind set.
And the good old USA-and slavery? The USA like to tout their the 'good guys"- Nazi Germany is not the first country to commit genocide-they just did it with up to date tech. Of course when s**t wasnt available-they just lined them up near big ditches and shot em.
Fair enough, but as far as "ditches filled with bodies", we forget the Killing Fields in Cambodia, and we forget that we were winning Vietnam in Cambodia's own backyard
until we deserted a potential ally due to pressure over allegations of violation of neutrality. Yet these same people overlooked that N. Vietnam was circumventing the DMZ thru Cambodia as well. I mention Pol Pot and the Killing Fields because it's one the UN and the world tend to forget...
When I mentioned earlier of GI's playing with the dead-I was speaking of the evil WE did in Vietnam-no one is innocent. Nazi Germany dosent have the whole hand on evil. the USA has done lotsa evil.
f**k-EVIL is EVERYWHERE in ALL RACES and countrys-its not a race or genetic thing-its what ALL people do.
It is what it is.'
You can condem it-you can excuse it-you can do whatever you want-but if you take little kids-and torure them-like Mengele-or slaughter a whole tribe of babie and mothers-like the US did in the Indian wars-its all evil.
Its ALL EVIL.
PERIOD.
NO escuse-I dont give a f**k about ideology-or what you think-you kill a baby-your f**king wrong.
Quote from: RCMerchant on May 11, 2014, 10:32:27 AM
Well said,my freind.
But the fact remains-you dont experiment on children -torture people-play God for being repressed-the american blacks have LOTS to be angry about-as well as the American Indians-but taking over the world is not in the Indian agenda. They did the Ghost Dance and died. The German people-and I have German blood in my veins-are a great nation who did much for the world-and they shouldn't be marked for the big stain that Nazi Germany cursed them with. But It is what it is-just as the USA committed mass genocide way before Hitler was even born. Just as the Catholic Church did with the Crusades-ideology trumps,it seems.
Very sad.
Agreed, and that's why I said that what happened wasn't worth WW2 and the Holocaust.
However, people also tend to forget that certain incidents, like the 1939 Bromberg Massacre of 5500 innocent Germans in Poland's Danzig province was a proverbial lightning rod for WW2 as well.
Some murders took place in Slovakia's Sudetenland as well. Eyewitnesses say German children were nailed to barn doors and some were mutilated by angry Polish-Slovak mobs.
Also, some evidence
does point to Communist influence and instigation of the incident. I know two wrongs don't make a right, but this is how it unfortunately played out and regardless of the morals or politics, I feel Socialism\Communism were eventually going to meet head-on.
If we are to understand the anger and hatred of WW2, we need to accept the fact that Europe and the Allies were NOT on the up-and-up in some cases. Germans had legitimate gripes and I feel in all cases, they were deliberately ignored to provoke that anger further. And it did. I only hope those who did it are happy with the results... :-(
I understand the Jewish issue, but I wish that they wouldn't see themselves as 51% of the shareholder in ultimate ethnic violence when 75 million+ native inhabitants of The Americas lost not only their lives, but their
homeland as well. And tosome of the same European invaders that victimized post WW1 and pre-WW2 Germany.
Saying-"but look what you did" doesnt excuse it.
We should learn from evil-not repeat it-yes-what so called civilised world did to "tame" the Americas was very evil-doesnt make Hitler and the Nazis any better-they just had more publicity on their side.
I know the Germans were p**sed-lotsa people were p**sed-they didnt experiment on little kids and old men in concentration camps.
Quote from: RCMerchant on May 11, 2014, 12:14:08 PM
Saying-"but look what you did" doesnt excuse it.
We should learn from evil-not repeat it-yes-what so called civilised world did to "tame" the Americas was very evil-doesnt make Hitler and the Nazis any better-they just had more publicity on their side.
Agreed. The best we can hope for is that it never happens again.
A fascinating discussion all the way around.
Kudos to you both for a meaningful exchange of ideas that did NOT end in a shouting match! :cheers:
Quote from: indianasmith on May 11, 2014, 12:54:54 PM
A fascinating discussion all the way around.
Kudos to you both for a meaningful exchange of ideas that did NOT end in a shouting match! :cheers:
Thats how wars start. :wink: Shouting turns to shooting.
Quote from: indianasmith on May 11, 2014, 12:54:54 PM
A fascinating discussion all the way around.
Kudos to you both for a meaningful exchange of ideas that did NOT end in a shouting match! :cheers:
No need to shout, speculation like this is a natural thing given the amount of alternate endings that could have taken place. Any time the dust settles from something as big as WW2, you're bound to have a firestorm of "what if's" and "what could have been's". It's only natural.
However, reality has seen me taking a lot of heat in the past, with some people I knew for years dumping me in a
minute over the knowledge that some of my family fought for Germany in WW2.
I also however, have a great-great grandfather (oder, ein Ururgroßvater) who fought in the Franco-Prussian War, and that above all else, makes me prouder because that was the war that gave Germany her name and established her independence! Anyone can fight in a war, but a war to establish the freedom and independence of your countrymen is indeed honorable above all else.
Anyhow, that's more than you ever wanted to know about a fellow forum member, but were afraid to ask! Maybe a bit TMI...
QuotePost WW1:
The Treaty Of Versailles was a legal writ of extortion and revenge based on military, cultural and political rivalries that promoted the opposite of the "peace" and "prosperity" it was supposed to promote in Germany. Prostitution, unemployment, and vigilantes ruled post WW1 Germany while the Allies lived off of Germany and grew rich as Germans became poorer.
The general thing I found interesting about the Treaty was it struck the worst balance possible. It hurt and insulted Germany, but didn't actually crush them under heel. They should have either treated them as a fallen friend and brought them in (eventually) as an ally to everyone else in Europe, or demolished the country so completely (break the nation back down into smaller entities, or something along those lines) it would have been impossible to rebuild. Instead, they did something in the middle, and barely 20 years passed and we got another war. They should have listened to Wilson.
Wilson unfortunately got schooled by Clemenceau and Lloyd George. Every time he tried to balk, they would threaten to reject the League of Nations, and he would knuckle under. The Treaty they wound up with was almost directly opposite of the Fourteen Points for peace he had proposed, and the Germans were forced to sign in under duress..
That being said, it was not nearly as vindictive or confiscatory as the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk that the Germans imposed on the Russians in December of 1917!
Quote from: Jim H on May 12, 2014, 10:30:36 PM
QuotePost WW1:
The Treaty Of Versailles was a legal writ of extortion and revenge based on military, cultural and political rivalries that promoted the opposite of the "peace" and "prosperity" it was supposed to promote in Germany. Prostitution, unemployment, and vigilantes ruled post WW1 Germany while the Allies lived off of Germany and grew rich as Germans became poorer.
The general thing I found interesting about the Treaty was it struck the worst balance possible. It hurt and insulted Germany, but didn't actually crush them under heel. They should have either treated them as a fallen friend and brought them in (eventually) as an ally to everyone else in Europe, or demolished the country so completely (break the nation back down into smaller entities, or something along those lines) it would have been impossible to rebuild. Instead, they did something in the middle, and barely 20 years passed and we got another war. They should have listened to Wilson.
Well, making Germany into smaller countries would have been detrimental, because of a smaller GNP and the inability of these entities to repay the reparations to the Allies. In turn that would have hurt the overall European economy.
With some more speculation as my rationale, you also might have had the possible scenario of a divided Germany going to the Bolsheviks for help:
Danzig city (Poland) and the Sudetenland (Slovakia) could have easily been staging grounds for the delivery of weapons to the smaller German countries, whose forces would be bolstered by Russian troops. A civil war erupts,and the allies, too weak from WW1 and unwilling to deal with Russia (a country twice the size of the U.S.) sit and watch the lower Eastern European and German provinces unite under the Communist banner.
Another reason to consider why a either a German, Allied, or combined post-WW2 assault on the Communists could have prevented a lot of pre
and post-war issues.
Hey, maybe this speculation of mine would make a great series of scenarios for the next COD or Wolfenstein game! Pre-cursor stuff. Whata 'ya think?
I think, in time, history will view both World Wars as one war. We're still living in the aftermath of these events. I am glad that the Greatest Generation of Americans defeated the Axis and dragged the damned Nazis into the mud. I also think Stalin was an even bigger turd than Hitler (king sh!theel that he was).
I imagine they are roommates in hell, where flaming eels devour their genitalia for all eternity!
Quote from: RCMerchant on May 10, 2014, 11:52:43 AM
For once I agree with Indy-Stalin WAS a scumbag-he was buddies at one time with Hitler-!
But Hitler and the Nazis???? The WORST idiots ever-evil beyond belief-the Nazi party was based on pure EVIL.
I cant stress the word EVIl enough to describe their beliefs,what they did to people-how self centered they were-f**k em.
I HATE NAZIS. :hatred:
Quote from: indianasmith on May 13, 2014, 10:58:23 PM
I imagine they are roommates in hell, where flaming eels devour their genitalia for all eternity!
I wonder which
TURD would be the more
ROTTEN ROOMMATE...? :question:
(http://img0.joyreactor.cc/pics/post/%D0%B3%D0%B8%D1%84%D0%BA%D0%B8-%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%B8%D0%BD-%D0%BF%D0%B5%D1%81%D0%BE%D1%87%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%86%D0%B0-810773.gif)(http://i.imgur.com/Caehw8O.gif)