Ok this is movie related but not about good or bad movies, it also has some social issues so if you're not interested you can opt not to read it now.
Still here? OK...
There was a time when hollywood seemed to hate fascism, totalitarianism, communism, etc and was proud to show it. In the 40's hollywood was on full auto assault mode against the axis powers and proudly made an endless tide of movies attacking the evil nazis and japanese. (They called the latter "japs" back then, too.)
After ww2 hollywood went on the march against communism with an even longer stream of anti communist movies that came in all types. Even movies like "the blob" and "invasion of the body snatchers" were thinly veiled anti communism messages.
Well, a poster here just posted a good thread about a movie on Stalin, and during the thread i wondered why we see so many movies attacking uncle joe and uncle 'dolf, many are still being made. Yet I find myself hard pressed to think of movies attacking Mao Tse Dung,who had more deaths to his name than either joe or 'dolf but a wide margin.
Modern china is one of the, if not the, most oppressive, tyrannical, totalitarian, authoritarian governments on earth today. It's policies crush free speech, brutally silence the mildest of dissent and have turned many chinese citizens slave labor in all but name, forced to live in factory complexes where life is so terrible many of them have had to install anti-suicide nets to keep people from leaving the only way they can.
China brtualy oppresses even non violent philosophical groups like fao lin gong, membership in which can result in arrest, torture, imprisonment in an official slave labor plant and even murder, with the victim's organs becoming property of the chinese government to be used or sold at it's choice.
We all saw a peaceful demonstration crushed under the treads of tanks in tianiemin square long ago, and things have gotten worse. But the chinese government has gotten better at keeping cameras away.
So why do we see no movies condemning Mao Tse Dung, who murdered more people than stalin or hitler? Why do we see no movies about the terrible aftereffects of tianimen square? Why do we see no movies about the oppression and torture chinese citizens are subject to daily? Why no movies about people who have escaped the chinese prison state and have truth to tell about chinese society?
You know, if would be bad enough if modern hollywood did;t criticize or attack china like it uysed to attack earlier tyrannical regimes. Given chna opresses more human beings than any earlier regime it would be shameful enough for hollywood to ignore.
But it's even worse than that.
Not only does hollywood not attack china for it's inhuman tyranny and horrific oppression of it's people, and the fact it turns non violent dissidents into organs for sale, but hollywood actively goes out of it;s way to bow to the chinese govbdrnment's wishes.
The remake of red dawn was supposed to be about a chinese invasion of america. The chinese government muttered something about economic consequences against the studio if it went ahead, so the chinese invaders became north korean, a truly idiotic idea.
The Ancient One if Dr. Strange has always been a tibetan man, but chinese government say "We no like reference to tibet in movie!" So hollywood magically morphed the ancient one into a white woman. I nearly vomited.
Once upon a time hollywood attacked evil governments. Now we have the most evil government in human history essentially operating a censorship Office in hollywood, while hollywood execs eagerly up to kneel before the chinese government and orally service it to be allowed into its movie market.
At one time hollywood fought evil governments and hated tyranny. Now it willingly kneels at the feet of evil and the only thing it seems to hate is a movie that doesn't make a huge profit.
a ,ot of those old movies against fascism in the 40's and communism in the 50's were stupid, awful and racist, but now i actually kinda miss 'em,,,, :bluesad:
I think you hit the nail on the head: It's China's enormous economic clout.
They control access to the world's biggest commercial market; AND they hold about half of America's foreign owned debt.
Quote from: indianasmith on August 29, 2018, 09:38:36 PM
I think you hit the nail on the head: It's China's enormous economic clout.
They control access to the world's biggest commercial market; AND they hold about half of America's foreign owned debt.
Bill Maher had it right: America's only true religion has always been capitalism. Some americans will even sell their own country for a short term profit. :bluesad:
Looking at the world now and china's position in it i wonder if nixon really was the worst president ever, he should have left china to stagnate behind it's great wall. Maybe someday some indy film maker will have the guts to make a movie ripping the chinese government. And you know what, Indy? If they do I'm sure no matte rhow hard the system makes it to find you'll find it and comment on it. :smile:
I don't know, as I understand it, Nixon's whole objective in reaching out to China was to play them off against the Soviets and hopefully get both of them to quit supporting North Vietnam.
If you have never read it, I highly recommend Conrad Black's biography of Richard Nixon. It is a fascinating read; a bit too sympathetic, perhaps, but at the same time, most of Nixon's other biographers have a very negative perspective on him, so Black does balance the equation a bit - and in a very readable format, as well!
Quote from: indianasmith on August 29, 2018, 10:05:04 PM
I don't know, as I understand it, Nixon's whole objective in reaching out to China was to play them off against the Soviets and hopefully get both of them to quit supporting North Vietnam.
If you have never read it, I highly recommend Conrad Black's biography of Richard Nixon. It is a fascinating read; a bit too sympathetic, perhaps, but at the same time, most of Nixon's other biographers have a very negative perspective on him, so Black does balance the equation a bit - and in a very readable format, as well!
I understand that, i's just now china has become possibly a greater threat to us than russia ever was. China is buying up america and i don;t know if we will need a war to reverse this.
I'm actually not too afraid of a war with china tho. I know enough history to know the chines are great bullies but terrible warriors, japan was crushing them in ww2, and have you ever looked at japan and china or a map? China needed our aid in ww2 to deal with japan, for god's sake.
As much as I hate china, I also hate the americans who put out the for sale sign to them... Can I get a few people here to agree on that?
The thing about the slippery slope is the first couple of people on it have no idea they're on it . . . the next few might know they are on it, but they're afraid to climb less they slip further . . . and so it goes.
Frankly, Sven, you're sounding racist. You trivialize the crimes of white dictators and even call Hitler "uncle" and then rabidly go after not just Mao, who is forty-two years dead, but an entire present-day nation of a billion and a half people. Is it maybe China's racial composition that alarms you? The "yellow menace"? Honestly, re-read what you wrote. You're flirting with racism, man.
Oh bullxxxx. I'm no fan of Russia either. And I hate plenty of white people too. Yes I hate China because it's under the rule of a brutal government that represents a serious threat to freedom and liberty on a global scale. You can hate people of a certain ethnicity without anything to do with their ethnicity.
And as for being harder on Mao, he murdered more people.
Sven, you said: "Bill Maher had it right: America's only true religion has always been capitalism."
Half a moment's thought will show that statement for the angry absurdity that it is.
I wish you knew peace, Sven, because to exist as angry and bitter and frustrated as you apparently do, to feel so much hate, it must be terrible.
I do like some things you post and I pity you for your turmoil and I hope you find a placid life some day.
Quote from: ER on August 30, 2018, 08:25:34 AM
Sven, you said: "Bill Maher had it right: America's only true religion has always been capitalism."
Half a moment's thought will show that statement for the angry absurdity that it is.
Tell that to the evangilist community that supports Trump. He's a scumbag who cheats on his wife with porn stars. Yet these bible thumpers are supporting him, even though he's after one thing-and only one thing-and has been for day one-lining his pockets. And he's lining they're pockets too.
Trump is what Trump is, whether that's good or bad he can defend himself, I'm not going to do it for him. If the sincerity of faith, though, comes down to money, remember there are a lot of people who give more money to churches than they get back out, and plenty of people in pastoral roles who are not wealthy. The failure of some is not the failure of all. The US was founded less on captitalism than ideas of Enlightenment Age liberty, including religious freedom: so much so freedom of religion heads the Bill of Rights, not a guarantee of free enterprise. It's cynical to say capitalism is the entirety of real American values.
Lest this spin out of control that's all I want to say there, and hope everyone has a pleasant day, lol. :cheers:
I certainly don't agree that all religion in America is based on money. Just CORRUPT big money/politics religion i.e. the old Jerry Falwell crowd.
As far as Capitalism goes. It goes a long way. It's the foundation of this country. But when the rich get SO rich it turns them into oligarch monopolies-yeah-that's too much.
I have no problem with Socialism at all. I don't know why it's a dirty word. Except some of the far left wanna give hand out's to f**kers who should at lest TRY to help themselves. I do NOT believe in a welfare state.
" I have never been a member of the Communist Party". :twirl:
Trump want's a dictatorship.
There's gotta be a happy middle somewhere. :bluesad:
Ah, yes, Jerry Falwell. I still remember where I was when I heard he died. I bought my friend's kid a Tinkie-Winkie Teletubby doll to celebr---um, mourn his passing.
snicker... :smile:
Quote from: ER on August 30, 2018, 10:14:54 AM
Trump is what Trump is, whether that's good or bad he can defend himself,
But you will take a stand on anything else-but seem really passive when it comes to Donald Trump.
Why?
Don't be wishy washy, as Charlie Brown would say.
One thing not to forget about China being invaded by Japan is that at the time China was not a single united country. It was divided up amongst many warlords all of whom were at war with each other. Thus Japan had an easy time of it because they were invading a very divided country which was in a multi sided civil war. Currently they are united being a strong central leader, while I've not checked the relavent stats I'd be surprised if they have a greater industrial capacity (which is a huge factor in modern warfare) and if you want tough infantry then you need a large population of poor people to whom being in the military is a way out of poverty. China has that in abundance. Oh, and they are close to having a monopoly on the supply of rare earth metals which is kinda vital to any high tech nation, not to mention their ability to shut down another nation via cyber warfare. Even when the Soviet Union was the worlds big bad, I was more concerned about China. They are working on missiles that the US can't even detect have been launched never mind have any kind of defence against, and thanks to Russia have access to anti aircraft defences that can shoot down any aircraft fielded by the west. Oh and the plans for the F-35 they stole... well they are making those aircraft faster and they've even made improvements.
I am not saying China would win in a war between the two nations, but don't dismiss them lightly or underestimate them.
Quote from: RCMerchant on August 30, 2018, 01:39:07 PM
Quote from: ER on August 30, 2018, 10:14:54 AM
Trump is what Trump is, whether that's good or bad he can defend himself,
But you will take a stand on anything else-but seem really passive when it comes to Donald Trump.
Why?
...
A good point. I'm interested to hear
ER's response.
Wow, saying 'trump is what trump is'' kinda reminds me if a line from ''Der untergang'' when one of dolfie's bootlickers said ''Der Fuehrer ist der Fuehrer! ''
Quote from: Svengoolie 3 on August 30, 2018, 03:30:28 PM
Wow, saying 'trump is what trump is'' kinda reminds me if a line from ''Der untergang'' when one of dolfie's bootlickers said ''Der Fuehrer ist der Fuehrer! ''
And saying you want socialism reminds me of Einstein's definition of insanity, trying the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. In this case something other than recurring abject failure.
Wasn't the U.S. Postal system technically socialized till the 70's? Weren't most cities' utility companies socialized too?
(Going by the simple definition of "government owns large businesses.")
Quote from: ER on August 30, 2018, 03:33:42 PM
Quote from: Svengoolie 3 on August 30, 2018, 03:30:28 PM
Wow, saying 'trump is what trump is'' kinda reminds me if a line from ''Der untergang'' when one of dolfie's bootlickers said ''Der Fuehrer ist der Fuehrer! ''
And saying you want socialism reminds me of Einstein's definition of insanity, trying the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. In this case something other than recurring abject failure.
I want some European style socialism, where governments protect people's rights. More that corporate rights, where people have guaranteed. Access To affordable healthcare. Where corporate power is limited to protect individual liberty. Where workers are guaranteed vacations and maternity leave.
A lot of countries with strong socialist policies are actually great places to live, like in western Europe and scandanavia. Now in America the right has been programmed to yell ''venezuala! '' whenever socialism is mentioned and talk about how horrible it is in south and cebteral. America, convenielty igniring the fact america has openly sabotaged socialist governments in south and centralamerica thru economnic, covery abd open military means.
Wow. This is getting real intense. :buggedout:
I'm glued to the edge of my seat!
Domestically one of the largest examples of a socialist model might be the public education systems in the US, well known for their limited accountability to taxpayers, their frequent waste and corruption, and the ceaseless government funding districts receive in the face of a great deal of inefficiency. Private schools, both secular and religious, run rings around public schools in terms of dollars spent and high test results, showing yet again the private sector outperforms a blindly-funded bureaucracy.
Quote from: RCMerchant on August 30, 2018, 04:11:06 PM
Wow. This is getting real intense. :buggedout:
I'm glued to the edge of my seat!
Ha! Intense is cool but please let's not get mean to each other. I really like this place better when we get along.
Quote from: ER on August 30, 2018, 04:15:09 PM
Quote from: RCMerchant on August 30, 2018, 04:11:06 PM
Wow. This is getting real intense. :buggedout:
I'm glued to the edge of my seat!
Ha! Intense is cool but please let's not get mean to each other. I really like this place better when we get along.
He's just being funny. :thumbup: You both are cool.
Now, your response to
RC's question?
Quote from: Svengoolie 3 on August 30, 2018, 04:09:34 PM
Quote from: ER on August 30, 2018, 03:33:42 PM
Quote from: Svengoolie 3 on August 30, 2018, 03:30:28 PM
Wow, saying 'trump is what trump is'' kinda reminds me if a line from ''Der untergang'' when one of dolfie's bootlickers said ''Der Fuehrer ist der Fuehrer! ''
And saying you want socialism reminds me of Einstein's definition of insanity, trying the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. In this case something other than recurring abject failure.
I want some European style socialism, where governments protect people's rights. More that corporate rights, where people have guaranteed. Access To affordable healthcare. Where corporate power is limited to protect individual liberty. Where workers are guaranteed vacations and maternity leave.
A lot of countries with strong socialist policies are actually great places to live, like in western Europe and scandanavia. Now in America the right has been programmed to yell ''venezuala! '' whenever socialism is mentioned and talk about how horrible it is in south and cebteral. America, convenielty igniring the fact america has openly sabotaged socialist governments in south and centralamerica thru economnic, covery abd open military means.
That's a well-stated explanation of your views. I don't agree that this would be an improvement in the United States but I respect that this is your ideal and you're entitled to hope for it.
John, Donald Trump is a lightning rod here and I'd rather not inflame passions that might cause trouble or divide people who could otherwise get along. I have my views on our president, others have theirs, and I think I'll mostly keep mine to myself.
Quote from: ER on August 30, 2018, 04:20:18 PM
John, Donald Trump is a lightning rod here and I'd rather not inflame passions that might cause trouble or divide people who could otherwise get along. I have my views on our president, others have theirs, and I think I'll mostly keep mine to myself.
Evelyn, you did state that you didn't care if he "imploded".
I just wish people could actually accept Mexicans as part of he Americas. Because that is what they are. It shouldn't be "South America" or "North America".
It should be America. at least in spirit.
Quote from: Allhallowsday on August 30, 2018, 04:21:43 PM
Quote from: ER on August 30, 2018, 04:20:18 PM
John, Donald Trump is a lightning rod here and I'd rather not inflame passions that might cause trouble or divide people who could otherwise get along. I have my views on our president, others have theirs, and I think I'll mostly keep mine to myself.
Evelyn, you did state that you didn't care if he "imploded".
?
We doing this arguement again? Hasn't everything already been covered and everyone knows everyone elses opinion on him?
Quote from: Svengoolie 3 on August 30, 2018, 04:09:34 PM
Quote from: ER on August 30, 2018, 03:33:42 PM
Quote from: Svengoolie 3 on August 30, 2018, 03:30:28 PM
Wow, saying 'trump is what trump is'' kinda reminds me if a line from ''Der untergang'' when one of dolfie's bootlickers said ''Der Fuehrer ist der Fuehrer! ''
And saying you want socialism reminds me of Einstein's definition of insanity, trying the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. In this case something other than recurring abject failure.
I want some European style socialism, where governments protect people's rights. More that corporate rights, where people have guaranteed. Access To affordable healthcare. Where corporate power is limited to protect individual liberty. Where workers are guaranteed vacations and maternity leave.
A lot of countries with strong socialist policies are actually great places to live, like in western Europe and scandanavia. Now in America the right has been programmed to yell ''venezuala! '' whenever socialism is mentioned and talk about how horrible it is in south and cebteral. America, convenielty igniring the fact america has openly sabotaged socialist governments in south and centralamerica thru economnic, covery abd open military means.
Remember corporations are just groups of people united for a common purpose. If you wanted, you could become part of one today.
That's kind of how I feel about it, Alex, and besides there are lots of other topics for us to chase our tails with around here, like alien abduction, the Illuminati running PepsiCo, and whether Barney is a real dinosaur playing a fake dinosaur on TV. (I used to tie my kids' brains up with that one!)
It's been fun but hubby's home, dinner's ready (I feel so delightfully 1950s!) and I should really work in some snuggle time tonight before my cancer procedure thingie tomorrow.
Hope everyone has a good evening, and nobody got his or her feelings bruised.
Later!
Quote from: Dark Alex on August 30, 2018, 04:27:57 PM
Quote from: Allhallowsday on August 30, 2018, 04:21:43 PM
Quote from: ER on August 30, 2018, 04:20:18 PM
John, Donald Trump is a lightning rod here and I'd rather not inflame passions that might cause trouble or divide people who could otherwise get along. I have my views on our president, others have theirs, and I think I'll mostly keep mine to myself.
Evelyn, you did state that you didn't care if he "imploded".
?
We doing this arguement again? Hasn't everything already been covered and everyone knows everyone elses opinion on him?
Alex, I am quoting her, and not involved in any "argument". I would not presume to know or guess what any individual's opinion might be.
I just have to point out that it's Mao Tse-Tung or Mao Zedong, depending on which system is used for the translation, it's not Mao Tse Dung.
I'm just glad we can actually have a discussion on here without resorting to insults and flame wars. I like this place best when we can discuss issues without it degenerating into bad feelings. That's what FaceBook is for!! :teddyr:
Quote from: indianasmith on August 30, 2018, 05:37:59 PM
I'm just glad we can actually have a discussion on here without resorting to insults and flame wars. I like this place best when we can discuss issues without it degenerating into bad feelings. That's what FaceBook is for!! :teddyr:
:bouncegiggle: :bouncegiggle:
Quote from: justme2013 on August 30, 2018, 04:59:15 PM
I just have to point out that it's Mao Tse-Tung or Mao Zedong, depending on which system is used for the translation, it's not Mao Tse Dung.
I prefer to slight megalomaniacs when convenient.
Best of luck to you tomorrow, ER.
I don't give a flying f**k over the other about anything- but I do judge words and actions from day to day.
With my brain!
Ya know-because folks can do that.
If Donald Trump donated a million dollars to starving children in Africa I would be impressed.
Donald Trump is a greedy self centered scumbag, who believes in nothing but himself.
Go lay down. :smile:
Quote from: Svengoolie 3 on August 30, 2018, 07:17:59 PM
Quote from: justme2013 on August 30, 2018, 04:59:15 PM
I just have to point out that it's Mao Tse-Tung or Mao Zedong, depending on which system is used for the translation, it's not Mao Tse Dung.
I prefer to slight megalomaniacs when convenient.
I guess I am under the impression that if you want to have a civil, respectful, and mature conversation on a topic you need to respect the subject, you don't have to like them or agree with them but do respect what you are discussing, however if you would rather show your immaturity and inability to discuss your views in a civil, respectful manner don't be surprised if people don't take you seriously or respect your views.
tell me sven, why did you feel the need to state your hatred of ALL chinese people because of what their government does? because that's basically what you said in your OP. i fail to see what your racism has to do with hollywood at all. i think your goal was to start yet another biff about politics and that's very immature, and VERY trollish. if you want a place to fight, there are plenty of other boards out there where you can fight with people who would LOVE to rip your POV to shreds.
please don't play the fake OP game, it's rude.
All over the map baby... :thumbup: :teddyr: :lookingup:
Quote from: 316zombie on August 31, 2018, 01:22:30 PM
tell me sven, why did you feel the need to state your hatred of ALL chinese people because of what their government does? because that's basically what you said in your OP. i fail to see what your racism has to do with hollywood at all. i think your goal was to start yet another biff about politics and that's very immature, and VERY trollish. if you want a place to fight, there are plenty of other boards out there where you can fight with people who would LOVE to rip your POV to shreds.
please don't play the fake OP game, it's rude.
I hate the Chinese government for being an absolute dictatorship that crushes humanity under an ultra authoritarian jackbook, using teror, torture, slavery and mas murder.
Quote from: 316zombie on August 31, 2018, 01:22:30 PM
tell me sven, why did you feel the need to state your hatred of ALL chinese people because of what their government does? because that's basically what you said in your OP. i fail to see what your racism has to do with hollywood at all. i think your goal was to start yet another biff about politics and that's very immature, and VERY trollish. if you want a place to fight, there are plenty of other boards out there where you can fight with people who would LOVE to rip your POV to shreds.
please don't play the fake OP game, it's rude.
Sven did NOT "state" his "...hatred of ALL chinese people..." At all.
I also do not see "racism" in his remarks, but a clear disdain for an oppressive government.
4 pages in and I'm only responding to the OP - here's what it is.
WWII was full-on war propaganda. And the US probably needed it, assuming propaganda is effective.
The Cold War stuff, again, was war propaganda, except of course it wasn't really a conventional war.
So in the middle of this latter period, the US started trading with China, and China turns towards capitalism towards the end of the '70s. And then the USSR falls just over a decade later, so now almost everybody in the '90s is capitalist and all these powerful old enemies of the US are mostly friendly (except Cuba who the US establishment kept right on hating). But of course China's still a dictatorship, and Russia's still a dictatorship, but the US is trading with them so it mostly doesn't care.
If you pay attention, there are still a number of cases where the US has, since the end of the Cold War, gone really hard with propaganda against certain nations. The Iran thing's still going, and some of the stuff claimed about NK is probably misrepresenting the situation, too. This isn't even to say NK isn't horrible, but it seems to function more as a fiercely nationalistic kingdom than the desperate starved Disneyland that the American media often portrays. IE intervention would be a really bad idea. And in Iran's case, there's a country whose domestic policy is actually improving and whose foreign policy is probably better than that of American allies like Saudi Arabia and Qatar, so the grudge is probably over their relations with Israel combined with their being Shia.
But anyway... the US now has this big war machine from the world wars and the Cold War, and it's been keeping it oiled - and what you may notice, even worse than however much they appease the Chinese market, is how much Hollywood appeases the American military audience. You know - movies like Battleship or the military getting directly inserted into all these flicks like Godzilla where they may get oversight into how they're portrayed. And Godzilla was by no means a worse example, of course - Edwards made them look useless, and I commend him for that because he clearly did it in a somewhat clever way where you actually have to pay attention to the sequence of events to understand it. But those guys were still there getting free roles as valid authority figures without any direct questioning or criticism or satire. So even though the US isn't really in any current massive military conflicts right now (in spite of being involved in one or more wars), they still have the propaganda running.