Don't get me wrong, I like Star Wars, and as a kid watching it on VHS I loved it. it was the doorway to a franchise that's brought a lot of fun into my life. It's an almost unstoppable force, no pun intended, that's filtered into our very psychology as modern people. Its as big as The Beatles, the NFL, politics, TV, Kanye's ego. Were it not owned by Disney, it'd dwarf Disney.
BUT....
Have you ever stopped to think about what a genuinely bad movie it is? I mean like B-movie level. Bad acting, silly scenarios, implausible reactions and outcomes, far-fetched plot....if it hadn't become a global blockbuster, it'd likely be recalled amid snide put-downs on MST3K. I think Family Guy has done a good job pointing out a lot of the blatantly inanity, Robot Chicken did so a little more reverently, and countless memes have skewered it too. (My favorite may be when Leia comforts Luke over the loss of a mentor he knew for about a day, when she herself lost all her family, friends, neighbors, her entire planet, yet seems barely shaken up.)
I mean it, Star Wars may be great, but it's also a bad, bad, BAD movie!
You aren't wrong, but it is just fun enough to overcome its limitations.
I saw it at the Strand in Paw Paw,MI. Bleh. The comic books and toys and every f**king thing in the world had some Star Wars s**t all over them! They were like the band KISS in the 70's.
(https://i.imgur.com/OB7ZwSE.jpg) (https://lunapic.com)
Only seen it once or twice, and definitely not since the age of about 8 or 9... worth a rewatch for dem bad movie chuckles?
Quote from: ER on February 08, 2023, 11:19:15 AMIts as big as The Beatles
I guess Luke Hansolo Chewbacca and C3PO are the John Paul George and Ringo of the sci fi world. Yoda is Brian Epstein. R2D2 is ...Pete Best?
I read somewhere years ago that Star Wars was a kind of a remake of Kurosawa's film The Hidden Fortress :question: Not sure if that is legit or not.
I saw Star Wars in 1977, I loved it and developed a tiny crush on Carrie Fisher. :smile:
I was 7 years old in 1977 so I was the exact audience Star Wars was targeting.
Watching it through adult eyes, I freely admit that it's total comic book nonsense, but the original trilogy is pretty much part of my DNA at this point and I still love 'em.
Part of its charm is that it's basically a fairy tale in a futuristic setting, and if you've read many fairy tales, you know how ridiculous they can be.
I fully agree it is a B-movie, ripping off things like the Dam Busters. That is why am baffled with the untold multitudes of fans taking it seriously.
That being said, I love it to bits. It may be nonsense, but it is glorious nonsense. The original one didn't try to be deep or serious, it just wanted to be a fun adventure, and it delivered in spades.
:bluesad: :bluesad:
It's supposed to be like that because it's meant for kids. From what I read, Lucas wanted to do Flash Gordon, but when he couldn't make something based on it and on many other films that kids loved, such as pirate movies (hence, Luke swinging around), westerns (duels), and even war films (see below). He included samurai films (like the one mentioned earlier) because he saw them in film school.
For example, as mentioned earlier:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNdb03Hw18M (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNdb03Hw18M)
This also explains why early reviews of the movie referred to Saturday afternoon matinee Republic serials.
Some of that phenomenon remains today. Check out, for example, the TV show Mandalorian in light of TV and movie westerns and samurai flicks, including The Seven Samurai and Lone Wolf and Cub.
https://www.slashfilm.com/575746/the-mandalorian-influences/ (https://www.slashfilm.com/575746/the-mandalorian-influences/)
Finally, I think Lucas tried to make the franchies more "adult" by bringing in political intrigue in the prequels, but it didn't work.
One more thing: this reminds me of the TV show Battlestar Galactica (the first one). It's supposed to be for kids, which is why they brought in the child actor and robot dog, but the context of the main plot is not for kids: genocide.
About fifteen years ago there was going to be an "adult" Star Wars video game called 1313, featuring violence* and sex and drug use and much else, which I thought sounded interesting, couldn't wait to have my onscreen bounty hunter roger a Jawa while high on death sticks, but it got scrapped.
* Although what could be more violent than blowing up a whole planet I don't know.
The original STAR WARS is fun, a real popcorn movie. And it is dumb. I can understand EMPIRE and RETURN which were just logical moneymakers and also fun. The stupefying thing is all these later sequels, spinoffs, and pre-stories taking themselves more and more seriously. It's become drivel.
"5 Ways Flash Gordon Helped Inspire George Lucas and STAR WARS"
https://www.getblockbuster.com/post/5-ways-flash-gordon-helped-inspire-george-lucas-and-star-wars (https://www.getblockbuster.com/post/5-ways-flash-gordon-helped-inspire-george-lucas-and-star-wars)
Also, lots of other sci-fi, westerns, pirate movies, war films, etc.
For those who are not as old as Lucas, here's a clip from one of those serials:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B707Ava4wrY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B707Ava4wrY)
They were shown as part of Saturday afternoon matinees. One write-up about that, with references to Star Wars:
https://manapop.com/musing/who-remembers-saturday-afternoon-childrens-matinees/ (https://manapop.com/musing/who-remembers-saturday-afternoon-childrens-matinees/)
Hence, the reference to Republic Pictures serials and B-movies in general in early reviews of Star Wars. Here's an extract from Maltin's: "Elaborate, imaginative update of Flash Gordon incredibly became one of the most popular films of all time. It's a hip homage to B-movie ethics and heroism in the space age...."
Oh, yeah, I totally agree. Not only it's bad, but it's obvious that they had no intentions of making sequels of any kind. Things like the Force are barely explained, and most of the story plays out like a self-contained, cliche fantasy tale. Not to mention weird stuff like Leia kissing Luke, for example - they would've never do that if they knew beforehand they were related, come on.
A NEW HOPE is one of my least favorite movies in the saga, and sometimes I'm amazed at how it became so insanely popular in the first place.
Having said that, I enjoy the six movies of the Anakin tale, and fully rewatch it from time to time. The only thing that bothers me, because I'm a dork, is that people keep calling it science fiction, only because it takes place in space and has flying ships. Even Lucas said it was fantasy.
Luckily they never did any unnecessary sequel that ruined the whole story. Disney? What's that? Never heard of it, sorry.
Quote from: Gabriel Knight on February 13, 2023, 12:02:16 PM
...
A NEW HOPE is one of my least favorite movies in the saga, and sometimes I'm amazed at how it became so insanely popular in the first place.
...
Y'see, STAR WARS was STAR WARS in 1977. Is that now "STAR WARS A New Hope" with retitle? :lookingup:
There's a similar point given here:
"Why The Empire Strikes Back is overrated"
https://www.bbc.com/culture/article/20200430-star-wars-why-the-empire-strikes-back-is-overrated (https://www.bbc.com/culture/article/20200430-star-wars-why-the-empire-strikes-back-is-overrated)
That might explain why I was confused when I saw the start of the second movie. I thought that the Empire experienced heavy losses at the end of the first movie, but now the rebels were on the run again. It's as if the first film was irrelevant, and what might have happened was explained only briefly in the scroll text.
I assumed, given the title of the second movie, that the Empire was at a disadvantage but found a way to strike back.
Quote from: Allhallowsday on February 13, 2023, 06:00:32 PM
Quote from: Gabriel Knight on February 13, 2023, 12:02:16 PM
...
A NEW HOPE is one of my least favorite movies in the saga, and sometimes I'm amazed at how it became so insanely popular in the first place.
...
Y'see, STAR WARS was STAR WARS in 1977. Is that now "STAR WARS A New Hope" with retitle? :lookingup:
Hey, you gotta recognize them somehow. :bouncegiggle:
Quote from: Gabriel Knight on February 14, 2023, 01:26:26 PM
Quote from: Allhallowsday on February 13, 2023, 06:00:32 PM
Quote from: Gabriel Knight on February 13, 2023, 12:02:16 PM
...
A NEW HOPE is one of my least favorite movies in the saga, and sometimes I'm amazed at how it became so insanely popular in the first place.
...
Y'see, STAR WARS was STAR WARS in 1977. Is that now "STAR WARS A New Hope" with retitle? :lookingup:
Hey, you gotta recognize them somehow. :bouncegiggle:
I was 16 the year
STAR WARS came out. Changing the title decades later is... oh bah-ruh-uhther...
To me, this whole 'A New Hope' thing is symptomatic of the thing Star Wars has become. It started out as an essentially stand alone take on the Flash Gordon style SF, and then they developed this overarching mythology out of the various elements that were most popular. As the mythology grew, they had to somehow fit in the first movie and pretend that this had been planned all along. Now I am aware of the genesis of Star Wars and George Lucas's vision, but in the first trilogy they were pretty much picking and modifying whatever elements from the background saga that took their fancy.
Inspired by Joseph Campbell
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8Rg7tbBZdM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8Rg7tbBZdM)
Reminds me of that scene from Reign of Fire, where kids who grew up with no electricity, TV, movies, etc., are enthralled by adults retelling the Star Wars story:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NCBA1wii70o (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NCBA1wii70o)
I remember a sadder one, which I think involved kids watching an old video tape of a children's show in the movie Threads.
Finally, there's a related scene from Postman and others.
Related:
"Liam Neeson Says 'Star Wars' Is Being Hurt by 'So Many Spinoffs': 'It's Taken Away the Mystery and the Magic'"
https://variety.com/2023/film/news/liam-neeson-disses-star-wars-hurt-spinoffs-1235526503/
I saw it when it first came out and didn't like it. I was 8 or 9 and it didn't capture my imagination. The only character I liked was Han Solo as he was cool and stood out from the others. Luke was too whiny and Vader wasn't scary at all. So I've never been a fan and don't give a flying about the prequels, sequels and spin-offs.
After Star Wars, I saw Battlestar Galactica at the cinema and that blew me away. Then watched as many Star Wars ripp-offs as possible. I'll watch the worst (Shape of Things to Come, War of the Robots) again over Star Wars.
I loved Star Wars, Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi.
The sequels and the prequels on the other hand are 💩💩💩💩 in my 🩲
Jared, I had a similar reaction to/experience with the STAR WARS trilogy as a small child. I was Team Han in 1983 - every other boy in my Kindergarten class was Team Luke. Fortunately I always got to be Han during recess but they all thought I was a weirdo w/ poor judgment. (Maybe they had me sussed out even then!)
If either Jared or Trevor hasn't yet seen ROGUE ONE, that's the SW movie I'd recommend to you - the SW movie for people who don't like SW! (It's my favorite, anyway.)
I saw STAR WARS when I was 15 in '77. I was already listening to Black Sabbath, I found it an overblown cartoon. Bored the s**t outta me.
It is bad. George Lucas is not a good director in the usual sense. His films are poorly paced and show a thousando of different influences. Yet the movie has its charm. Either because it somehow works despite its problems, blending its influences in a coherent fashion, or because it has great characters and scenes.
Quote from: Neville on October 31, 2024, 04:28:20 PMIt is bad. George Lucas is not a good director in the usual sense. His films are poorly paced and show a thousando of different influences. Yet the movie has its charm. Either because it somehow works despite its problems, blending its influences in a coherent fashion, or because it has great characters and scenes.
I can see how it was so popular. It was a massive breakthrough at the time in terms of special effects, design and characters. I don't think it's a bad film. It has a massive influence even up to now and will continue to do so. I just don't like most of it and think a few of the rip-offs improved on it to a certain extent.
I find it disturbing that a lot of people read so much into Star Wars and therefore that leads to the money people exploiting them by making prequels, sequels and spin-offs. Make or adapt something else! Plenty of books out there.
Quote from: M.10rda on October 27, 2024, 07:33:18 AMI was Team Han in 1983 - every other boy in my Kindergarten class was Team Luke.
yeah, 'Team Solo' doesn't quite work does it :)
weirdly I've just remembered that although I only recall seeing the film once and not being fussed about it, I was really into the toys? iirc I had nearly all the figures, stormtroopers etc... and a kid down the road had Ty-fighters (sp?) which I was insanely jealous of.
me and my bro also had light sabres which seemed like the most awesome magical toy ever, although in retrospect they were clearly just a strip of lights covered by plastic tubing....
yet I had/have no interest in the film(s) :question:
Quote from: JaredSyn on October 31, 2024, 06:27:59 PMI can see how it was so popular. It was a massive breakthrough at the time in terms of special effects, design and characters. I don't think it's a bad film. It has a massive influence even up to now and will continue to do so. I just don't like most of it and think a few of the rip-offs improved on it to a certain extent.
It was also pure escapism and a breakout from too many 1970s films that were too realistic and depressing.
I was in 7th grade when I went to see it in the summer of '77.
I was entranced from the moment the opening credits rolled, and I love it still to this day.
I was 10 when I saw it in my hometown cinema (the Embassy) in 1977. Saw it, loved it and still do.
I saw The Empire Strikes Back there three years later and will never forget the ripple of horror which ran through the cinema when Darth Vader says "Yes, I am your sister." 😉
Seriously, people screamed and I know they did as I was one of them 😳😳😳
Quote from: Neville on November 01, 2024, 02:10:12 PMIt was also pure escapism and a breakout from too many 1970s films that were too realistic and depressing.
Very much agree with you. This thread is actually making me want to watch it again ha ha. Although I'd like to watch a version with the original effects in it.
Quote from: Trevor on November 01, 2024, 11:25:44 PMI saw The Empire Strikes Back there three years later
I certainly enjoyed that more than the first - the walkers are very cool and I liked the asteroid sequence. Particularly the space worm.
ZNO made a good point about the toys/product tie-ins - the film itself was a sensation, however the toys et al were mostly of such high quality that I think they really helped reinforce the cultural phenomenon for the 24 or so months between one entry leaving the theaters and the next one being released.
Case in point: It's openly acknowledged (by Marvel editor-in-chief Jim Shooter among others) that Marvel's STAR WARS comic almost singlehandedly saved Marvel's bacon in 1977, and kept it in the black through the mid-80s. Prior to the first issue Marvel was struggling to sell enough issues to stay afloat. Without STAR WARS, maybe no SPIDER-MAN, X-MEN, and AVENGERSverse flicks in the 21st century. Those STAR WARS comics from the 70s and 80s are aaaaaaawesome.
Quote from: M.10rda on November 02, 2024, 06:36:27 AMWithout STAR WARS, maybe no SPIDER-MAN, X-MEN, and AVENGERSverse flicks in the 21st century.
Hmm, now you're making me rethink my love of STAR WARS. (Sorry, that was a very "Medved" comment of mine.)
LOL! I'm not suggesting that STAR WARS' contribution to 21st century cinema is unambivalently positive! :bouncegiggle: But many of the things that people claim to like about Marvel-based movies is stuff from Marvel comics published after 1977... Deadpool... Rocket Raccoon... the nuanced/ambiguous Magneto played by McKellan and Fassbender... most Wolverine and Thanos lore... (just personally for me) Kitty Pryde (who has never been portrayed properly onscreen)....... oh, the Spiderverse - which I believe you like (iirc), Rev. All of those things followed the STAR WARS comic and mightn't have ever existed if not for the STAR WARS comic. Just saying.
(A lot of stuff we don't like we could still chalk up to the STAR WARS comic, too. Madame Web followed the STAR WARS comic. Morbius, however....... pre-STAR WARS! :smile: )
Quote from: ER on February 08, 2023, 11:19:15 AM(My favorite may be when Leia comforts Luke over the loss of a mentor he knew for about a day, when she herself lost all her family, friends, neighbors, her entire planet, yet seems barely shaken up.)
That was added when they'd already started filming. Obi Wan wasn't supposed to die, but Lucas thought the Death Star wasn't threatening enough. Alec Guinness threatened to quit when he read the changes, but Lucas convinced him to stay. After that Guinness apparently agreed it was right for Obi Wan to die; that the plot needed it.
Sometime during the film's production, Guinness wrote a letter to a friend, complaining. It said the director was making decisions based on plot instead of character development. Wouldn't be surprised if he wrote the letter after his talk with Lucas about that plot twist.
Quote from: pacman000 on November 12, 2024, 05:45:57 PMQuote from: ER on February 08, 2023, 11:19:15 AM(My favorite may be when Leia comforts Luke over the loss of a mentor he knew for about a day, when she herself lost all her family, friends, neighbors, her entire planet, yet seems barely shaken up.)
That was added when they'd already started filming. Obi Wan wasn't supposed to die, but Lucas thought the Death Star wasn't threatening enough. Alec Guinness threatened to quit when he read the changes, but Lucas convinced him to stay. After that Guinness apparently agreed it was right for Obi Wan to die; that the plot needed it.
Sometime during the film's production, Guinness wrote a letter to a friend, complaining. It said the director was making decisions based on plot instead of character development. Wouldn't be surprised if he wrote the letter after his talk with Lucas about that plot twist.
I find it strange how much power name actors can have over a film sometimes. Not really in this case, as he accepted it. But it can show a lack of respect for the director and/or writer(s) when they're supposed to be there acting the best they can and follwoing the script.
Quote from: LordGraal on November 14, 2024, 12:28:12 PMQuote from: pacman000 on November 12, 2024, 05:45:57 PMQuote from: ER on February 08, 2023, 11:19:15 AM(My favorite may be when Leia comforts Luke over the loss of a mentor he knew for about a day, when she herself lost all her family, friends, neighbors, her entire planet, yet seems barely shaken up.)
That was added when they'd already started filming. Obi Wan wasn't supposed to die, but Lucas thought the Death Star wasn't threatening enough. Alec Guinness threatened to quit when he read the changes, but Lucas convinced him to stay. After that Guinness apparently agreed it was right for Obi Wan to die; that the plot needed it.
Sometime during the film's production, Guinness wrote a letter to a friend, complaining. It said the director was making decisions based on plot instead of character development. Wouldn't be surprised if he wrote the letter after his talk with Lucas about that plot twist.
I find it strange how much power name actors can have over a film sometimes. Not really in this case, as he accepted it. But it can show a lack of respect for the director and/or writer(s) when they're supposed to be there acting the best they can and follwoing the script.
True. But in this case Lucas changed the script. Guinness had agreed to film the earlier version, not the version where he died. (If I remember right, he thought his grandkids might like to see him as a space wizard. Killing him off changed that incentive.)
Filmmaking is a team effort, even if the director is in charge, he or she must work with the cast & crew to get the job done, & dine well.
Quote from: pacman000 on November 14, 2024, 12:41:40 PMFilmmaking is a team effort, even if the director is in charge, he or she must work with the cast & crew to get the job done, & dine well.
But the bottom line is that actors sign on to complete the film. They haven't put in the effort to write it or the massive amount of work directors do along with the rest of the crew. Actors should give their best performance. The incentive should be to complete the film for the people who are paying you - not your family. If an actor threatens to walk because of a change to their character it is massively selfish and disrespectful to the numerous other people who work on it. If it's a safety issue or a morally repugent change then fine. But not because your grandkids would be disapoointed. Ridiculous.
Keep in mind, I'm not 100% sure he wanted the role because for grandkids. Thus is just my memory.
I'd agree with the rest, if the the script wasn't changed during production. Changing a script another person's agreed to, is changing part of the agreement itself.
Either way, Guinness did a good job, even with the changed scene, & he came back for one of the sequels, so I can't be too harsh on him.
Quote from: pacman000 on November 14, 2024, 02:11:43 PMKeep in mind, I'm not 100% sure he wanted the role because for grandkids. Thus is just my memory.
I'd agree with the rest, if the the script wasn't changed during production. Changing a script another person's agreed to, is changing part of the agreement itself.
Either way, Guinness did a good job, even with the changed scene, & he came back for one of the sequels, so I can't be too harsh on him.
Of course :thumbup: He added alot to the film.
I respect Christopher Plummer for being honest about why he did Starcrash. Anything to get to Rome :smile: