Undoubtedly you will hear more about this in the days to come. Amazon is offering books put out by Nambla and is causing a ruckus. I support Free Speech, but this
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0967699703/qid=1033165556/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/104-6134062-6335968?v=glance&n=507846
disturbs me to no end. It makes my defenses of Free Speech a little more difficult, as this book encourages behavior that is harmful to children.
Then again Victor Salva, Jeepers Creepers and Clownhouse, is a b-movie maker, so there. I kept it within the sphere of the postings.
Boycott Amazon or not, you decide.
Ew. Ew, ew, ew. I saw that the ACLU is defending NAMBLA's right to tell pederasts how to molest kids and get away with it. This is the same organization that goes after religious organizations for "forcing their morality on others".
"We believe in equality and the same rights for everyone and all that gay stuff, but you guys are sick!"
-Stan Marsh, South Park, CO.
First and foremost, I am against what NAMBLA preachers. This is by what I have read of their standpoints. My natural reaction is to denounce the book, but what makes me pause is that I have not read it. Terribly enough, I think that to condemn the book, I must know what it says. Otherwise I am passing judgment without all the info. Now, if someone I trust can say "This book is about sodomizing young boys." Then the writer of the book can go to Hell.
Conversely, I have no intention of buying the book. If nobody buys the book, we can safely assume it will not get very far.
What in the hell is going on in this world?
Words can't even describe the feelings I have
As the father of 3 (2 of them being boys) I am outraged
It doesn't matter Chadzilla if it's off topic to me (can't speak for others)
But it does need to be talked about
NAMBLA is releasing a book to the public?!
Give Me A Goddamn Break!!!!
I'm sure that Howard Stern and Jerry Springer are warming their hands up for the official guest interview rights for the author of this one.
Oh, holy crap.
Believe me, Chadzilla, I'm in the middle of a "censorship" arguement elsewhere on this board, and I understand your quandry about where to "draw the line."
Just reading the reviews on the Amazon page gives me the--forgive the pun--Creepers.
Back in '82 or so, I actually received a fundraising call from NAMBLA. I had never heard of them before, and when someone explained what the acronym stood for, I thought they were joking. Ever since, I've WISHED they had been joking.
However! If this generates controversy, so much the better: I read an editorial by George Will a couple of years ago bemoaning the loss of the "social contract"--the idea that certain things simply were not discussed by refined people.
In other words--certainly not Will's--a man would beat his wife, and then they would go to church and pretend to be good, God-fearing people, and she would never say a word about it to the neighbors. And he would just keep beating her.
That "social contract" doomed so many, many children to abuse at the hands of family members, teachers, and clergy. Shame kept the victims silent, the perpetrators safe, and the public complacent. For years, the occasional victim would come forward, and we would shake our heads in denial that such a thing could be true--until the numbers became to large to ignore.
Recently, two girls who were kidnapped and raped--and later rescued when police killed their captor--appeared on television to describe their ordeal. They had no "shame" for being victims. Some people expressly did NOT want to hear what they had to say, but the once the stigma is lifted from the victims, the veil of secrecy falls and the perps stand revealed. The more light that shines on NAMBLA, the sooner they won't be able to find a rock to hide under. Eventually, they won't be able to justify their actions or beliefs, even to themselves.
It is seriously disturbing to me that a book like that exists let alone is on sale in an otherwise respectable shop like Amazon.
Forgive my igonorance but I am now curious what NAMBLA stands for. Judging by this: "when someone explained what the acronym stood for, I thought they were joking. Ever since, I've WISHED they had been joking", I probably shouldn't ask but I am anyway.
I see paedophilia as one of very few entirely unjustifiable crimes. ie. even in some cases of murder you can feel sorry for the murderer, maybe they were driven to it and maybe you understand why they did it. But the only plausible explanation I will ever acceot for paedophilia is mental illness, in which case those responsible need to be either treated or serperated from society.
Pete
"NAMBLA" I think it stands for "North American Man Boy Love Association"
As the the father of four , including two boys, stuff like NAMBLA trying to legitimize what they do really sickens me.
Chadzilla, I hate to tell you this, but you are the best thing to happen to NAMBLA this week. You are helping them spread their word. You and other "outraged" folks have helped jack up their Amazon sales rank to 111. Even if Amazon removes the title, NAMBLA's message just made it out to a few thousand new folks who never heard of them before.
The fact you are posting that link is really REALLY counterproductive to your point.
**** "The more light that shines on NAMBLA, the sooner they won't be able to find a rock to hide under. Eventually, they won't be able to justify their actions or beliefs, even to themselves." *****
NAMBLA doesn't hide. That's its whole point. It walks the legal line. The real scary people will always remain in the shadows -- they avoid association with NAMBLA precisely because of NAMBLA's high profile. NAMBLA wants, no, it BEGS for controversy and attention. And frankly, most REAL peds (and those wacky Euro shrinks in favor of youthful sexuality) reject its values and its stance as pure advertorial hokum ... or as too overtly dangerous.
NAMBLA works like Al Sharpton. Or Neo-Nazi groups. It knows its rhetoric will be rejected by 999 of a thousand people. It's aiming for the one of a thousand.
If the book does not have illegal content then it is not illegal to sell. If the book contains content in bad taste, then the book is simply repugnant. There are a number of titles on Amazon I find repugnant -- that's what free speech is all about.
As an aside, I will not watch Salva's movies. That's my quiet, personal choice. I think he's scum. I don't ask anyone to join me. It's my trip and mine alone. I don't give the guy attention because I think he's a slime.
I reckon Amazon will ultimately remove the title, but even if it does, NAMBLA already achieved what it wanted and much much more.
[EDIT -- AFTER RESEARCH] Gd-drd-jssh-- Chadzilla -- NAMBLA didn't put this book out. A similar sick doofus in Philly did. And guess what the mission statement is?
"Understanding Loved Boys and Boylovers needs to be read by people who would never order it themselves, even if they were aware of its existence, which most aren't. And these people are the ones who need to read the book if it is to fulfill its intended purpose of bringing light to where there has only been darkness before. It will do little good sitting on a boylover's bookshelf, someone who already knows and agrees with what it says."
The sickos are now ranking at 109 on Amazon, kids.
The boylovers pulled the strings and Jerry Falwell danced to dat.
(And as one last edit, if you've kids, and you care, instead of getting upset with Amazon, just make sure no one creepy is living up the street from you: http://www.shadow-net.com/id60.htm )
So, NAMBLA that South Park made fun of is acutally real? God, I feel sick!
>Recently, two girls who were kidnapped and raped--and later rescued when
>police killed their captor
I know I don't pay a lot of attention to the news, but I completely missed this. Do you have a link for it?
The story, from ABCNews. (http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/kidnappedgirls_calif020801.html)
...and a considerably more sensationalistic NY Post article (http://www.nypost.com/news/nationalnews/54143.htm) about the aftermath, and the girls' public appearance.
Amazon.com sales rankings aren't like box office tallies; they rise and fall rapidly and mean little after a single hour's time. Chadzilla has made each of us a little more aware of what's going on in the world out there, and I'll maintain that's ultimately better than pretending the problem doesn't exist.
Pete B6K wrote:
>
> I see paedophilia as one of very few entirely unjustifiable
> crimes. ie. even in some cases of murder you can feel sorry
> for the murderer, maybe they were driven to it and maybe you
> understand why they did it. But the only plausible
> explanation I will ever acceot for paedophilia is mental
> illness, in which case those responsible need to be either
> treated or serperated from society.
An important distinction: pedophilia (sexual attraction to children) is NOT a crime, just like my desire to kill the sonofab***h who cut me off in traffic is not a crime. It's when the desire is acted upon that it's a crime. (Fortunately, the sonofab***h had a roomy trunk in which to hide his body.)
Nathan
Thanks for the links.
(Sigh)....and people wonder why i'm paranoid.
....The true sickos are out there, and it ain't off topic to remind us to be aware of the preditors, Chadzilla. Never let 'em see ya sweat, or let 'em blindside ya.
Good point, well argued. Some unpleasent things need to be seen and addressed in the public forum.
Abby wrote:
>
> Chadzilla, I hate to tell you this, but you are the best
> thing to happen to NAMBLA this week. You are helping them
> spread their word. You and other "outraged" folks have helped
> jack up their Amazon sales rank to 111. Even if Amazon
> removes the title, NAMBLA's message just made it out to a few
> thousand new folks who never heard of them before.
>
> The fact you are posting that link is really REALLY
> counterproductive to your point.
Of course, I didn't think about that until AFTER I posted. To quote Stephen King "Open mouth, insert foot, close mouth." Sometime making an idiot of yourself is good for the soul, very humbling. Thanks.
>
> As an aside, I will not watch Salva's movies. That's my
> quiet, personal choice. I think he's scum. I don't ask anyone
> to join me. It's my trip and mine alone. I don't give the guy
> attention because I think he's a slime.
>
Same here, he can make as many Jeepers Creepers sequels as he wants. I won't watch a single one.
>
> The sickos are now ranking at 109 on Amazon, kids.
>
I REALLY need to get a job in advertising.
Well, Chadzilla, I'm glad you responded in kind because I had prepared another more apologetic post that I refrained from plopping up here solely so I wouldn't bump this up by myself.
If I seemed particularly aggressive, it's because that content disturbs the crap out of me and I didn't appreciate clicking on it via another message board and having it pop up in my Amazon "look at the page you made."
It reminds me of the old Ellen Degeneres joke: "Oh my God -- this tastes terrible. Here, try it!"
The last time Amazon was boycotted for selling material that endorsed sicko man/boy relations, it shipped over 100,000 copies of the offending title before it dropped the book. The campaign worked just like this -- people spread the Amazon link far and wide. The sales were completely driven by the "boycott."
Next time this happens, don't toss out a specific link -- really -- it is what they want.
I totally agree with your post.
Like Andrew, I haven't read the book, but my guess - knowing what NAMBLA is - is that it advocates the commission of crime, and to my mind this crosses the line into speech that is not protected by the Constitution. Free speech means free political/artistic speech. Other types of speech are not necessarily okay. Some examples:
1. A car salesman cannot say on a TV commercial or to a customer that his car will get 1,000 miles to the gallon if it won't. Commercial speech is governed by rules against fraud.
2. There's the famous "Fire in a crowded theater" example of speech intended to incite disorder that presents danger.
3. Perjury under oath obviously. Also misleading police during an investigation.
4. And if, with your speech, you encourage others to commit a crime, you become an accessory to that crime -- and in some rare cases can be found as guilty as the person who committed it.
I haven't read the book, and I am not going to read the book. But I feel fairly justified in suspecting that much of what the book says probably falls pretty squarely in category 4 above.
As for hushing up a NAMBLA debate, bad idea. I think every person (parents especially) in America should know exactly who they are and what they stand for. Ignorance is not power.
NAMBLA did not release the book. The fact NAMBLA entered the conversation here says more about the effectiveness of their publicity efforts than anyone cares to admit.
There's actually a warning on the ped publisher's website that tells real peds NOT to purchase the book from Amazon; because the purchase is not anoymous. That Amazon link is not preaching to the converted. It's preaching to the outraged. Or the curious. Or to those who just want to "make up their own minds." This is exactly what the creeps wanted. And I guarantee they will find one or two people who'll ask themselves for the first time, "Hey, why CAN'T we lower the age of consent if we can convict children as adults?" And BOOM. A few more sympathetic seeds are planted. All they need are one or two seeds sowed to make a little headway. This is how they were able to start an insidious academic movement to support their sick agenda.
There is no shortage of media coverage devoted to child abuse (sexual and not). It's like the weather: the subject is always the 'top story' if it's available. We all just watched a child get the crap beat out of her Rodney King-style for the past two weeks. Catholic sex abuse. Jon Benet Ramsey. Local child porn horrors. Adam Walsh. "Have You See This Child?" The subject is awful; outrageous; emotionally charged. Great for ratings and ad sales. Great for "controversy." And it's everywhere. So don't worry -- the awareness isn't going anywhere.
Attack the crimes; not the smokescreen. Not the diversion.
And BOOM. A few more sympathetic seeds are planted. All they need are one or two seeds sowed to make a little headway.
***** The math just doesn't work for me. Winning over a couple of disciples while outraging and alarming thousands of others doesn't advance any cause in any way I can see. I do appreciate your concern and understand your point however.
i ssay we use money stolen from pedos after they've been killed by mercenary psychos. oh oops, did i say that out loud! me and my militant thoughts, again!