If you decide to challenge the actions of the President of the United States,does that make you any less of a patriot? or does it make you one moreso in that you object to the use of OUR military and OUR people,to depose a leader whom our govt supported,when he was attacking a people whose govt we opposed. Saddam provided support to us,in the 80's,by taking on Iran,but now,we had to depose him because he 'might' pose a threat? One shell,containing i believe Sarin,was found,alongside a roadway,but nothing more. Where are the WMD's? or were all the reports wrong? moreover,we are self righteous in invading other nations(ie iraq) for their 'attrocities',when our govt let our soliders be bombarded by agent orange in vietnam,our govt allowed syphillis to be given to black airmen,and no treatment was given. And now,in Iraq,our military is forced to endure attacks by the warring factions that Saddam kept under control,due to fear albeit,but he kept them all in check. How can a democracy exist in this one time dictatorship,without assuring that each faction,whether s**te,kurd or otherwise,gets a fair share of power in a new democracy. if you have an answer,id like to hear it,thanks.
I think the larger picture is that it's a democracy vs a dictatorship. Same as with Israel and her myriad oil/ drug tycoon enemies. US= good often startlingly inept . Dictatorship= wrong by definition. Between a dictatorship and a democracy I don't think one should hesitate in supporting the latter. As far as criticism of said democracy? It's fine but also subject to criticism. Example: protesting the vietnam war: fine by me. chanting "ho chi minh!": not fine by me.
"One shell,containing i believe Sarin,was found,alongside a roadway,but nothing more."
Correction: VX nerve gas was discovered in the Euphrates river (VX does not occur naturally), and shells with mustard gas were also discovered. The sarin was not "found on a roadside" it was weaponized and used in an attack - though thankfully it was not well done. But the press (and I suppose people like you) won't be satisfied unless they uncover a big missile with nuclear and biohazard symbols on the nose cone with the words (in English) "USA or BUST" on the side. Actually, even then I bet Michael Moore would come up with a new excuse why the war was unjustified.
All of this ignores the fact that Bush spent three solid pre-invasion months giving Hussein time to hide or dispose of stuff (i.e. I don't think he made the VX to dump in the river, but that's where it wound up). What frightens me is that we gave them time to get it into Syria (thank you France and Russia).
Being patriotic means supporting (in principle and action) the freedoms, the Constitution, and the people of this nation. Since those are all subject to interpretation, I think it's quite possible (inevitable actually) that very patriotic people will clash on all kinds of issues from abortion to war. And they do. 99% of the time "unpatriotic" is bandied about, it is done so inaccurately. John Walker Lindh - the California Taliban - was unpatriotic because he was an American who despised what this country is about (the little things like freedoms for women and democracy - two things UBL is outspoken against) and took up arms against it.
I am going to make this a plain as I can . Being a patriot means actually being willing to sacrifice something for your country. Waving a flag or going along lockstep with what the government does is not being a patriot. Making sacrifices and sometimes fighting and dying for what is right makes you one, whether or not what you are doing is popular.
If you disagree with what our government does, you're not being unpatriotic unless you do something treasoness against that government. Protest and free speach are the backbone of our democracy. If those are taken away, what have we got? Americans are born with an innate suspicion of the government, it's part of our character as a country.
I am not upset about the so-called WMD's, I am upset with what seems to be the outright ineptitude ot the people running the operation. But, I can't see any way we can walk away now, because who knows what would happen with the power vacuum it would leave.
I don't have an answer for how they are going to work things out in Iraq, I wish someone did. But I know this, you're not being unpatriotic if you feel the need to protest what is going on.
The subject of the Constitution, Democracy, Free Enterprise, and Freedom in general should be up to debate as well. With technology the world is a much smaller place. The truth is a new world is approaching regardless of how anyone sees the three previous subjects. Nothing last forever. Just recognize the next level and be on board when it arrives. One world goverment is inevitible. It will indeed happen. It's really not about being patriotic in the traditional sense. To be patriotic will mean living for something much larger than our self interest in the future. Hopefully we in the U.S. will take our rightful place in the world. The U.S. has the potential to make history. Bringing the world under one goverment. We shouldn't give away the store without something in return. Who knows with the right decisions we may all have something to be truely patriotic about.
Make Iraq (51st) and Afganistan (52nd) states of the United States. This is what it means to believe in our way of life. Some simply want to subject people of other countries to economic slavery to the U.S. . Many of those coutries simple will never have the resources and money to get out of their situation. The most human thing is to take over that failing nation and make it our own. Eliminating all opposition within that country and let those who want to be with us join us instead of locking them out unjustly from our borders. We must have something in exchange for access to our way of life and that something is land. With land you add new resources and geopolitical locations for world expansion.
Let's face it our economic system is a form of slavery and violence. This is not a bad thing. We must simply admit to our natural beastly tendencies and be more up front with the ultimate truth and our approach to world situations. Instead of masking them behind the veil of artificial systems that are supported by the misfortunes of others. Let's be up front and fight this thing to the end till the whole earth is under truely equal laws and true democracy. This is worth fighting for and dying for. This is to be patriotic. This is a life with meaning. Give unrestricted warfare a chance. Maybe you would rather just spend your time at the mall or be pacified by a ballgame. A slave that believes they are free is the best slave. Unfortanely most people from other countries understand they are subject to the U.S. economy and artificial borders. The only people on the planet that don't understand this are the American people. We have lived in a fantasy land long enough. Lets live in truth and eliminate our enemies in the true sense of the word and let those who want to join and become part of the U.S. live and be our equals.
We should all have the freedom to do great things and be part of something larger than ourselves. The longer we wait the harder it will be. Make expansionism a U.S. policy. Bring back Manifest Destiny. Creating a borderless one World Goverment.
Post Edited (05-31-04 09:58)
Christ, I hope that was irony.
I don't think that it is wrong to challenge the president. In fact, anyone who blindly agrees with everything that the president (or anyone else, for that matter) says is pretty foolish. No one can be right all the time. However, I DO think that it shows a lack of patriotism when people start bad-mouthing the United States in general and siding with other countries. To those people, I use the worn-out cliche, "If you don't like it here, then leave."
"One world goverment is inevitible. It will indeed happen. It's really not about being patriotic in the traditional sense. To be patriotic will mean living for something much larger than our self interest in the future. Hopefully we in the U.S. will take our rightful place in the world. The U.S. has the potential to make history. Bringing the world under one goverment. We shouldn't give away the store without something in return."
Wow, remind me never to give you the keys to my doomsday gun! That sounds pretty diabolical! I doubt the world would take kindly to Iraq and Afghanistan being made American states: not only do most of the people seem to despise Americans, but it would make them a target for every other militant person in the area who can't get into Israel.
Quite frankly the US, or any other country for that matter, doesn't a rightful place as owner/leader of the world. In fact, recent historical events seem to point towards alot of countries shutting out the world instead of embracing them. Whilst we may all like the world to live together in peace and blah blah, one government is not going to be able to deal with all our problems as a species.
At least not until the Aliens invade...
No doubt dean, it would take a religious figure (or the aliens to arrive : ) ) to do that and the world dosn't have one at this time. You can't lock people out of this country because our country has to many family blood ties through interracial marriages with U.S. citizens to people from other countries. Most people in every country on earth is trying to get to the U.S.. The U.S. is a great country and with a little resolve from our self absorbed people here the world can change quicker than imagined. We only have to redirect our energies and begin the work.
About the U.S. not having the right to subdue the world. Look at the fact that the U.S. is the true U.N. not that phony organization by the same name. We have people from every country on the planet here and more trying to get here. The other nations have forfeited their sovereigntry due to the mass exodus from the failing countries. Land in exchange for access. We also have the technology if needed to do it right. We just need to invest much more into it.
p.s. My statement isn't meant to take away from any of our heros of the past. We should honor those who fought with purpose.
Post Edited (05-31-04 20:10)
Ooh, a political discussion! Cool! I haven't had one of these in, well five minutes actually, but they are always fun. :-P
It seems that because of the actions of certain countries and individuals, the world has become an increasingly political place. No one doubts the fact that the US have alot of resources and is a powerful nation. It doesn't mean people like the US. Sure there a heaps of people trying to get in to America, but not because they necessarily want to adopt American culture and values, but just plainly because they feel that they have a better chance of 'making it' in a country that has such resources.
It's the same for any rich country: the poor want to be rich so you go where the money is, and since the US dominates many entertainment mediums, it is more visible and desired.
I have always wanted to visit America, though this inclination is slightly less so nowadays, because I find the idea culturally interesting [launch discussion of pop-culture here...] But I wouldn't want to live in an American run world.
Yes the UN is incredibly political and does get caught into the red tape traps of bureaucracy, but just because the US can exert their power [and does] this doesn't mean that they are better. It is a dangerous line, and eventually it will be crossed.
By deferring power to one country, person or group of people invites too many problems, possibilities of corruption and cover-ups etc.: just because you like your value system, doesn't mean others will.
Think about how religion would be treated in such a world. Sure, we all act as if religion doesn't matter, but just remember that society is built upon centuries of religious values, and whilst the important ones transcend different religions, almost everything we do is culturally biased towards the religion we are brought up in.
Yes resources are important, but the idea that ''showing the world the American way'' or the US is going to lead the way by example, is doomed to failure inevitably; by basing a new society on a completely different one isn't going to work out; that's colonialism, and I don't like, as do many others I'm sure, being controlled by an outside power, even if said power doesn't really have much control government-wise. Culture, history and political issues, for me at least, seem to highlight this.
Anywho, this was just me trying to avoid doing a few essays, and I have succeeded in wasting time so I shall get back to it.
Just read this in a Patrick O'Brian novel:
[P]atriotism is a word; and one that generally comes to mean either "my country, right, or wrong", which is infamous, or "my country is always right", which is imbecile.
That about sums it up for me, on the subject of patriotism.
The U.S. would become a different country under a expansionist policy. It would include people from all over the world. The U.S. would be just in leading the way by blood and populations of different cultures within the U.S. The U.S. would be the idea nation to pursue such a concept as one world goverment. By the way all states would be equal to our fifty states here and people would initially be dispersed around the world as to slow down resistence. The inclusion of other nations into U.S. statehood would most likely test or break our economy at first because an economy in order to grow needs a growing population with cash or expanding markets with cash. Not to mention the old world debts from Europe that may be due. Again the nation may have to adapt for a dangerous period. Of course Europe could join and become states as well. Kinda like the European Union recently only much more so.
Also it would be the country with the most world blood ties and military capability that would be most in position to create a one world goverment.
Hear is a good question. If all national debts and loans were paid off around the world what country would have the most money?
Post Edited (05-31-04 22:16)
this must be a joke, right??
Quotemoreover,we are self righteous in invading other nations(ie iraq) for their 'attrocities',when our govt let our soliders be bombarded by agent orange in vietnam,our govt allowed syphillis to be given to black airmen,and no treatment was given
You may as well compare the failure to recycle aluminum cans to the Nazi holocaust. It's flat out absurd. It has no basis in rational thought.
I hope you're just repeating what the political propagandists are telling you to think and say, because if that's something you came up with yourself, well...
To think such or turn a blind eye is to be part of the problem already. Thoughts deceive many and they manifest themselves in many ways without one realizing it. Nobody can speak of righteousness because one can not fully understand ones own motives let alone others. It was once said in a sacred text "Their are none good, no not one". What is called "morality" today is a waste, but was initially considered a bi-product of an eternal quality as opposed to "the letter of the law". A goal determines what is right and wrong. Like the golden rule "Do unto others as they would have done unto you". It's not a statement of good or bad, but rather a way of living.
Post Edited (06-02-04 17:27)
"A goal determines what is right and wrong."
Yes, as the late Dr. Mengele was fond of saying, "You can't make an omlette without killing a few million people."
Scott, you're either the funniest guy on the board, or the scariest.
QuoteTo think such or turn a blind eye is to be part of the problem already.
No, to think that agent orange is the equivalent of Saddam Hussein is to be brainwashed by the political spinmeisters to the point where you can no longer diferentiate between reality and fantasy. Such arguments simply have no merit because they're based in delusion.
The whole complaint about how we were friends with Iraq during the Iran-Iraq war, and later became enemies, is equally as obtuse. We were allies of the Soviet Union during WWII, and then enemies during the Cold War, and are now friends again. We went to war against Britain in the Revolutionary War, and have been friends ever since. Germany and France didn't get along so well back in the early '40s, and now they're friends. To point out an example of the ordinary and hold it up as an exception is a calculated lie.
I have very mixed feelings about the whole war, and I'm willing to listen to people's opinions on the subject. But that doesn't mean that I'm going to listen to utter nonsense and quietly nod my head in agreement. People who do that are "part of the problem".
Jesus, your little speeches sound like they were made by the postmodernist essay generator. I don't know if your joking or what...
Anyway, I never bother to listen to anyone who's going to assert they'res no such thing as good/evil or that it's all relative. First off, they're 99.9 percent of the time full of s**t because ten minutes later they'll be deriding the evil/immoral actions of such and such group for endangering the humpbacked spotted dodo bird or whatever their cause du jour is.
Second, ayone that's likely to declaim the existence of evil likely has their own personal reasons. "Beware of the man that says that there are no honest people, for he is most surely a knave."
Life is friction. To move left or right is to cause friction, but during different time periods in history we have aloud different thresholds of pain and therefore evil. I'm not going to call either of you a knave because of your lack of knowledge, but am always willing to reveal truth when the time is right.
Only the goal is good. Both falsehood and truth are illusions from outside the goal. The goal judges all the actions of man. To know the goal is to know what is means to be beyond good and evil. If you are doin good you can not do evil.
There is no evil within the goal.
Um...yes...sure...
OK now I know your just f**king around.