Saw these in a Martial Arts forum and knew some people here like guns so..
(It's OT because it's semi-serious and not based on movie logic)
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Rules for a Gunfight
* Bring a gun. Preferably, bring at least two guns. Bring all of your friends who have guns.
* Anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice. Ammo is cheap. Life is expensive.
* Only hits count. The only thing worse than a miss is a slow miss.
* If your shooting stance is good, you're probably not moving fast enough or using cover correctly.
* If you can choose what to bring to a gunfight, bring a long gun and a friend with a long gun.
* In ten years nobody will remember the details of caliber, stance, or tactics. They will only remember who lived.
* Someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty.
* Always cheat, always win. The only unfair fight is the one you lose.
* Watch their hands. Hands kill. (In God we trust. Everyone else, keep your hands where I can see them.)
* The faster you finish the fight, the less shot you will get.
* Be polite. Be professional. But, have a plan to kill everyone you meet.
* Your number one Option for Personal Security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation.
I always liked Wild Bill's take on gunfighting: Aim, before you shoot.
Hehe. Some of these actually sound like what they teach at the SC Criminal Justice Academy.
I was in a self defense class there a few years ago, and one ofthe instructors was all gung-ho on 'proper technique.' If you did not grab a wrist in just the right place, well, you were doing "it" wrong.
The main instructor was a SERIOUS martial artist-the kind who has won fights (real ones). He listened to this other guy for a while, and near the last day of the class, he quietly stood up and asked if he could have the class's attention. He spoke in a very matter of fact tone: "do what you have to do to win; forget technique."
Another instructor, one who gave the lectures on the 'psychology of policing,' talked about what it was like to kill someone. He knew, because he had done so three times (once off duty when he happened into a robbery on his day off). Many in the class thought he was a psycho, the way he talked about his encounters were not politically correct I guess, but I tried to buddy up with and learn more. The dude was right on, in my book. I was taught from a very early age: don't point a gun at someone you don't intend to shoot, don't shoot someone you don't intend to kill, and don't miss.
And finally, I've had the privilege of knowing an IPSC Master, another individual who had been in multiple real-life gunfights. His advice? Hit what you are shooting at; misses don't count. To emphasize this point with some people I was doing training with a few years ago, I devised a target scoring system in which one is penalized for misses; you could get a negative score. The 'pass/fail' rates were very, very different when compared to conventional scoring used in Law Enforcement qualifications. When you think about it, it is kinda scarey that there is no penalty for missing (and possibly hitting a bystander).
Yes, because it does little good to aim AFTER you shoot....
;)
Actually, that is the point. Wild Bill did not always get off the first shot because he took the time to aim. His opponents did not and they lost. The only person who got the draw on Wild Bill did it from behind while he was playing cards. The movie 'Wild Bill' did an interesting, although ficticious, take on how Wild Bill ended up with his back to the door; he had a habit of not sitting with his back to a door. And since I brought up the movie, it has an excellent performance by Jeff Bridges as Wild Bill, but is unfortunately marred by a script which is ahistorical.
A magazine article, I believe from 'Wild West' magazine, ranked the top ten gunfighters from the old west and Wild Bill came in second to John Wesley Hardin's first place ranking even though they both had the most kills at ten each. Their deciding criteria was interesting. The main distinction was that Wild Bill was not a psychopathic killer; Hardin was.
I read an article years ago on gunfighting tactics, and iirc, Wild Bill was used as the model. Wasn't he the one that started the trend of shooting out his ammo daily, achieving two things:
(1) constant practice - with shooting, a little practice often is better for skills than a lot at one time with long spells between. Plus, you practice with the ammo you'd really use.
(2) fresh ammo - probably more important then than now, but it still is important from the standpoint of attention to and 'intimacy' with your equipment. When I was in LE, we used to carry the same ammo all the time; practice was with different ammo, then we'd reload with the other. I THINK about once per year, we'd fire off the 'duty' ammo, and reload with fresh.
The aiming you mention was part of the article, too. There was more; it was very interesting. I've read little on that period of American history - read mostly about Revolutionary, Civil and Vietnam Wars.
I am not too certain about firing off the ammo daily, but he was a stickler for regular practice. Wild Bill probably matches more closely, if not the inspiration for, the gunfighter image. He was a scout, marshall, gambler, and gunfighter of tall stature in size.
He was quite strategic in his planning. This is quite evidenced by a gunfight he was in, I believe in Kansas, where he preferred to keep his distance. Knowing that his opponent would probably panic fire, he stood little chance of getting hit while at the same time giving himself time to aim; and he was deadly accurate.
Additionally, he liked to keep his equipment in working order (guns that is; rumors suggest that Calamity Jane made certain his other equipment was in working order, but there is little if any proof to that). He also was willing to incorporate newer innovations and was one of the early gunfighters to adopt cartridge ammo for its reported better accuracy and naturally faster reloads.
His physical prowess was just as well known as his skills with a gun as many witnesses attested to him fighting a bear with just a knife. He was severely injured, but then the bear was dead.
The distinction that the magazine made between Hardin and Wild Bill is spurious as the main distiction that would rank Wild Bill as the greatest gunfighter in the West is that, unlike Hardin, Wild Bill was not a coward who shot people in the back. Hardin was simply a murderer, Wild Bill was a gunfighter.
Here is a link to a bio about Wild Bill.
Wild Bill (http://www.abacom.com/~jkrause/hickok.html)
>Rules for a Gunfight
My rules;
1. Don't get shot.
2. Make the other guy(s) break rule #1.
>2) fresh ammo - probably more important then than now
A few years ago, my father took his .45 to a range for a little practice. He'd had the same ammo in the gun for at least a year. The first shot he fired seemed to be a dud and the next round didn't chamber properly. Turns out that the first one had just pushed the bullet out of the shell and lodged it in the barrel. If it had gone a little further into the barrel so that the next round chambered properly and THAT was round was good, it could have blown up in his face.
I have a 1944 Turkish Mauser in 8mm and recently bought surplus 8mm rounds (from the 40's) and haven't had any problems with this old stuff. It may not be as accurate as modern ammo but it still shoots pretty well with no misfires or any problems (other than it's dirty as all hell since it's corrosive powder).
JohnL, there must be more to the story about your fathers .45 as ammo doesn't go bad within a year unless it's been wet or it may have been a bad batch to start with. Perhaps he had it laying around longer than he thought? I do like your 2 rules for a gunfight, simple and concise.
Even though ammo doesn't go bad from sitting around for a few years, I still replace my home defense ammo every 2 years just so I can be sure. Don't want to need to use it and find out that there's something wrong.
odinn7 wrote:
> JohnL, there must be more to the story about your fathers .45
> as ammo doesn't go bad within a year unless it's been wet or it
> may have been a bad batch to start with. Perhaps he had it
> laying around longer than he thought? I do like your 2 rules
> for a gunfight, simple and concise.
>
Actually, what it sounds like to me is a load without any powder (or powder that did not initiate). The primer alone has just enough ummff to unseat the bullet. There are three main types of misfires, and this is one of them (either missing or uninitiated powder).
While it is possible for a blocked barrel to cause a catastrophic failure in a pistol (as opposed to a revolver), it is a bit less likely. A pistol is not as closed a system as a revolver; the recoil drops the barrel assembly out of battery and 'unseals' the entire works. What would likely have happened is a huge get vent out the side of the weapon, which, of couse, may have still caused serious injury. Just my opinion, ymmv.
>JohnL, there must be more to the story about your fathers .45 as ammo doesn't
>go bad within a year unless it's been wet or it may have been a bad batch to
>start with. Perhaps he had it laying around longer than he thought?
Maybe. All he mentioned at the time was that it had been sitting around for quite a while. Maybe it was just a bad cartridge.
>I do like your 2 rules for a gunfight, simple and concise.
Thanks. :)
>Actually, what it sounds like to me is a load without any powder (or powder that
>did not initiate). The primer alone has just enough ummff to unseat the bullet.
>There are three main types of misfires, and this is one of them (either missing or
>uninitiated powder).
I don't think he ever figured out exactly what caused it.
>While it is possible for a blocked barrel to cause a catastrophic failure in a pistol
>(as opposed to a revolver), it is a bit less likely. A pistol is not as closed a
>system as a revolver; the recoil drops the barrel assembly out of battery
>and 'unseals' the entire works. What would likely have happened is a huge get
>vent out the side of the weapon, which, of couse, may have still caused serious
>injury. Just my opinion, ymmv.
You're probably right. I'm not exactly an expert on firearms, I just know that blocked barrels have been responsible for guns exploding.
JohnL wrote:
>
> I just know that blocked barrels have been responsible for guns
> exploding.
Yep. I've seen it in revolvers, and heard of it in long guns. Just don't know if I have ever heard of it specifically in a semiauto pistol.
Good topic, not much to add here, but as you know I like my Spaghetti Westerns. Here is a list of some fun titles.
Any Gun Can Play
A Bullitt for the General
The Great Silence
Django, If You Live Shoot
Companeros
Keoma
Shoot Gringo Shoot
Fist Full of Lead (a.k.a. Get your Coffins Ready, Sartana is Coming)
Texas, Adios
Four of the Apocalypes
A Minute to Pray, A Second to Die
Sabata
Django Prepare a Coffin
Bandidos
Los Amigos
A Reason to Live, A Reason to Die
Adios Sabata
Have a Good Funeral, Sartana Will Pay
Boot Hill
The Smell of Onion
Cut-Throats Nine
A Bullit for Sandoval
Django Strikes Again
Django The Bastard
Blood for a Silver Dollar
Winnetou - Last of the Renegades
Winnetou - The Desperado Trail
Blood and Guns
Johnny Oro
Jonathan of the Bears
The Stranger and the Gunfighter
Revenge of a Gunfighter
Blood at Sundown
Today It's Me
Massacre Time
Cemetary Without Crosses
The Price of Death
Life is Tough, eh Providence
Viva Django
The Five Man Army
Trinity is Back
Day of Anger
Ballad of Django
Old Shatterhand
Pistol for Ringo
The Return of Ringo
Sartana in Death Valley
If You Meet Sartana, Pray for Your Death
Seven Winchesters for a Massacre
The Big and the Bad
I'll Dig Your Grave
Drop Them or I'll Shoot
God Forgives......I Don't
I wonder who originally wrote these. They are posted all over the net. Just wondering if anyone had a clue. It's probably one of those things that has been around so long that no one remembers who came up with it.
Thanks for the list, Fearless.
"Watch the hands." What I have heard, and I don't how true this is, because I never knew any, but it does make some sense, is that the Old West gunfighters watched the shoulders of their opponent, because the first part of the body that is going to move, when a man goes for their gun, is the shoulders.
Love the rules, JohnL. Short and sweet.
I'd add another one : Know you wepon like the back of your hand.
Getting a feel for its weight and balance, just by carrying it, are part of develouping confidance with it.
My Lee-Enfield is comfortable to hold, and its only a bit nose heavy, just like my H&R .50 cal Blackpowder.The Moisan-Nagant is an M44, so its a bit stock heavy, while the Ruger 10/22 is perfect. I adapt my hold on each, but first i like to move it around a bit first, to remember its feel.
Also....with semi-autos, KNOW the magazine release, if its to be used for self defence. A change of gun can cause a moments hesitation.
A Colt 1911 has a push in release, by the shooters thumb, while a Walther P-38 has the "Euro" style release at the bottom of the grip, as does my Ruger MK2 pistol.
(Ahem)...This is my rifle , this is my gun.
One is for shooting, the other for fun......Right, Andrew?
> This is my rifle , this is my gun.
One is for shooting, the other for fun......Right, Andrew?
I remember that one in basic training Flangepart. Drill instructor made it quite clear.
Boyscoutkevin that is also true in martial arts. About the shoulders that is, but in martial arts you can use the shoulders to fake someone out, but in a gunfight there are no fake outs once someone makes their move.
Back to Martial Arts our instructor always said to "cheat". No such thing as "rules" in a real fight.
Boyscoutkevin that is also true in martial arts.
Only in MA you really have to watch more the center mass the solar plexus, for first signs of movement, and keep your peripheral vision open. In MA, the attack can come from either leg or either arm
but in martial arts you can use the shoulders to fake someone
and hips
but in a gunfight there are no fake outs once someone makes their move.
True that. In a gunfight there is really only one move and one counter move :) You don't 'fake' the shot to see what the other one will do :)
Back to Martial Arts our instructor always said to "cheat". No such thing as "rules" in a real fight.
In sparring, you follow rules; in real life, there are no rules (except perhaps "Don't use more force than neccessary"...if the guy is just drunk and pushes you a bit..there are successful counters that don't result in broken limbs..etc..)
> (except perhaps "Don't use more force than neccessary"...if the guy is just drunk and pushes you a bit..there are successful counters that don't result in broken limbs..etc..)
True FearlessFreep. Glad to hear you are involved with martial arts.
Glad to hear you are involved with martial arts
I've been doing Tae Kwon Do for the last 6 months or so (partially to improve my health, partially to encourage my kids). Just tested tonight for my second belt advancement, actually; it went very well. We do TKD forms, olympic-rules sparring, a self-defense/combat that's mostly TKD but has some joint manipuations and such that are not really TKD (more Hapkido related) and some strikes that are definitely *not* within the realm of sparring (shovel kicks and side kicks to the knees, knife-hand to under the jaw, elbow to the temple, knee to the face, etc..fun struff)
And you?
I practice running a lot. Usually in the opposite direction ( :
three things I know about hand to hand combat is:
1.Get your opponent on the ground
2.Never let him/her get on your back
3.Fight dirty
You can’t give it, you can’t even buy it, and you just don’t get it!-Aeon Flux
Sounds like a good combination Fearless Freep. Tae Kwon Do is good exercise especially the Olympic style sparring, but I always felt Tae Kwon Do needed more than what is taught in American schools.
Knife hand under the jaw (throat) and the elbows are fantastic methods of self-defense. Joint manipulation is good, but can be hard to apply in actual fighting as elbows and soft targets are much more direct and effective. With everything it takes practice. Some styles take longer to aquire effective technique.
In my opinion traditional Jiu Jitsu from Japan is the best all around martial art for the average person. Tae Kwon Do normally are very flexible and agile with great reflexes. Tae Kwon Do requires great conditioning and it's a good foundation for other martial arts.
Aikido is an interesting art, but it should be looked at from the vantage point of the other arts first in my opinion. All arts should be respected and experienced. Our family has been involved with all types of martial arts as it is and activity that you and your family can get your head into. Just beware of the business (racket) end of the activity and get what you can out of it and leave. The belt system is a good form of accomplishment for the children, but the adults should stay away from it, unless it works for you. We've been around it for about 12 years.
We've done these arts:
Tae Kwon Do (Korean Karate)
Aikido (Variation of Jui Jitsu)
Go Ju (Japanese Karate)
Jui Jitsu (Japanese Street Fighting)
Judo (Japanese grappling)
Escrima (Philippine stick fighting)
Jui Jitsu (Brazilian grappling)
Aido (Japanese Sword)
The only ones we haven't really had the chance to do are Kung Fu, Kendo and Capoiera. There are no schools in our area for these.
It's great for the kids, but don't forget to let them experience other sports and activities.
Post Edited (01-11-05 09:17)
Rich Andrini said:
> 1.Get your opponent on the ground (not necessary, they may have friends waiting)
>2.Never let him/her get on your back (never let them "on" your back)
>3.Fight dirty (good)
Post Edited (01-11-05 09:25)
I always felt Tae Kwon Do needed more than what is taught in American schools.
It seems to really vary depending on the school. A school near here does all forms and sparring; very heavily competition oriented. Our school is much more oriented toward self-defense and combat. We do forms and sparring, but not as much as other schools and we do a lot of stuff that draws on TKD but also incorporates other pieces
Joint manipulation is good, but can be hard to apply in actual fighting as elbows and soft targets are much more direct and effective
Most of the joint manipulation is based on scenarios like "the guy grabs you, how do you break and counter?" Mostly stuff like "a guy gets ticked and gets rowdy and shoves you or grabs or or throws a punch, how do you stop it? *preferably* without it getting too far" In open fighting, you are probably not going to do the same thing.
With everything it takes practice.
Amen to that!!
but the adults should stay away from it, unless it works for you.
I actually don't think about the belts too much; they are like milemarkers on the road; shows me where I've come but don't really indicate where I am going. I don't focus on preparing for the test(s); either I know it or I don't, and I'm a lot more focused on improving day to day, week to week.
Sounds like you have a pretty varied background :)
> 1.Get your opponent on the ground (not necessary, they may have friends waiting)
And they may have a knife.
Better, IMHO, to keep them at distance. Good to know the short range game and the ground game, but I'd rather first at least try to stop them with a front-kick to the stomach or groin or a sidekick (or roundhouse) to break the knee or... If they get in that, there's the various palm-heel strikes to the nose or chin/jaw, knifehand to jaw by the ear, knuckle punch to the solar plexus..etc...if they get through *that*, there's the elbows and knees, and *then* there's grapple and/or go to the ground.
Bascially you have four 'bubble zone' or ranges from the body (leg/foot, arm/hand, knee/elbow, and grapple) and different ways to attack and defend at those levels(and transition from one to the other). Ideally, you'd like to have techniques available at all four levels; personally, being that I train in TKD (so I'm comfortable with kick attacks and defenses and know how to close distance and also evade) and that I have long legs and much more powerful lower body than upper, for comfort, I'd rather stay as far out as possible.
Going to the ground is probably decent for two unskilled, unarmed people. Grappling against multiple opponents, though, takes a lot of skill and is a good way to get your head kicked in. Back to just two people, if one of them pulls a knife or other weapon, the situation changes *drastically* . "Get your opponent to the ground" is probably ok if you have no real training, but in that case, I would use it as a back up to "get away" (Which is actuallly a good first line of defense for *anyone*...best way to survive a fight is to not be in it)
I respectt the BJJ guys who have good stand-up and ground grappling games, but I think for true self-defense, they should augment with at least some striking attacks and especially defenses, just as I, though focused on TKD, also work the close game and will eventually augment with grappling
Scott, I hang out at MartialTalk.com (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/index.php?) and a little at BudoSeek.net (http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/index.php?)
Post Edited (01-11-05 12:14)
Sounds like your doing well and you have good instruction. It's a great study and keeps your mind and body active. I'll try to check out your hangs outs when I get some time. Just checked your updated Website look good also. Haven't looked at it in a while and I'll read your topics also. Thanks.
Post Edited (01-11-05 12:38)
Thanks for the insight guys about the 3 hand to hand list I put. The werid thing about it a police instructor told me about the first two rules. The third one I knew from experience :)
You can’t give it, you can’t even buy it, and you just don’t get it!-Aeon Flux
Well, the policeman is trying to apprehend criminals while the average person is protecting themselves. Police must be aggressive to apprehend and cuff someone where cititzens would use self-defense. Police sometimes must make the initial move were a victim is countering someone elses initial move. That's why one should respect the police as they put themselves in dangerous situations, but I think even todays police training will tell you that it's better (not good) to be on your back as opposed to being face down were someone can do all sorts of damage to you from choking to spinal and rib injures when you cover up face down. When on your back you can move better, block, and counter. Face down you have few options unless you can get hold of a limb and roll into a joint lock or basic cover
FearlessFreep your correct that joints locks are easier to apply once someone has grabbed you. That is why I was initially drawn to Jui Jitsu as I feel most self defense actually starts from those grabbing situations. Unless your the macho type and want to duke it out one on one and I don't advise that as you become part of the problem.
I don't know if this has been said before:
1) Don't pack the biggest gun. Pack an automatic with lots of bullets (15) and several extra magazines.
2) Make sure your oponent has the sun in front of him. Face West in the morning and East in the afternoon.
3) Aim to the chest only. Don't waste your ammo on limbs and heads, they move too fast.
4) Aim carefully and shoot. repeat. Don't empty your ammo to find yourself facing an armed adversary without a single bullet.
5) As soon as the shooting starts, dive into the ground (that is, unless you are alone). The enemy will go first for the easier targets to obtain advantage. Meanwhile, you can take them easily from your position.
6) Use obstacles to hide, but keep in mind that everything under a brick wall won't stop a bullet. If you hide behind a car, hide behind the engine only.
7) If you are in a mexican standoff, shoot first. Wait for anybody to start talking and then blow him while he speaks. Nobody expects that.
I've never fired a gun, but it's amazing how much you can learn from movies!
Oh, and always shoot to the enemy's back. It worked for Wyatt Earp, didn't it?
"...and then blow him while he speaks."
Uh, I think I'll pass on that one.
Or, this bit of conversation between Odo (Aberjonosis) and Garak (Robinson), when the two were on the same side in a gunfight on "Star Trek: Deep Space 9." Odo: "You'd shoot someone in the back."--Garak: "It's the easiest way, isn't it?"
I would also like to add, that Old West gunfighters would aim for their enemies' belt buckle, if possible. A chest shot, might or might not, drop their foe, but a belly or gut shot, usually would. Something else to think about.
Oops! Don't believ he ment it that way...thought it would distract your opponent!
Never shoot a bigger handgun round then your comfortable with.
I like the .45acp...but you can keep the .44magnum. If the recoil keep you from getting on target soonest, go for a lesser round.
After all, a hit with a .32 is better then a miss with a .357!