Dogma..... what else

[Fearless Freep]

As a parent you are not in fact all powerful. Not even relative to an infant. I don't think the scope of the concept of all-powerful has really been comprehended in principle

From the point of view of the child to the parent, the analogy is sufficient in that the potential for power does not necesitate the exercies of that power.

But, on a more fundamental nature, your definition of God is closer to a more Eastern-style montheism or similar, then a Judeo-Christian and even Muslim monotheism.  Naturally, if we are talking about Satan and his rebellion against God, then we are very much talking within the context of those traditions (because it is from those traditions, that we draw our image of Satan) and, as such, the nature of God must be consistant with those theologies.

In monotheistic theology, God is seperate from creation.  Creation is not a part of God.  God is in all but is not all in a sense like a chair is completely consumed by the time it exists in but time is not a chair.  Creation has limited autonomy from God's controlling hand, in the sense that God can control, but chooses not to for the most part, and lets things run the course with limited intervention (how limited is a matter of disagreement). Within this framework, the possibiliy of autonomy being exercised in free-will resulting in rebelling is certainly possible and usually seen as inevitable if nor required.  Certainly most religions that hold such a view of God also hold such a view of of the result in our limited available sample size.

However, that's not the God you are describing with terminology as "every atom is the power of and part of god." and "control every calorie that powers the muscles they use to defy you".  In such a context, not only is Satanic rebellion impossible, but so is simple free will.  Granted, Satan is impossibe within a metaphysics that defines God as such, but religions that contain Satan don't define God as such so it'a  non-sequitar.  Might as well advance that the very idea of Zeus is impossible within Incan religion.  That's pretty much true be definition, but not worth much discussion.

Within the context of religions that have advanced the concept of Satan, Satan is very possible within how those religions also define God.  But to discuss Satan has to be done within the larger theology of that belief system.  Because it's just as easy to propose a viewpoint of Satan within terms of chaos and rebellion that would also make God impossible be definition.  That's not much use because you've just defined your terms in ways to exclude certain possibilities.

Or, in other words, you've changed the definitions in way that cancels some terms by fiat, but not shown that the concepts of Satan is actually illogical or impossible withing the belief systems in which he is said to exist

[C Reynolds]

I've always thought it would be cool to have a TV show/movie where all the Gods of various mythologies were real and fought each other with their superpowers. Think of all the great match-ups you could have, with Thor and Baron Samedi going toe to toe, or Buddha using Dragonball Z type powers to fight Jesus.

[Chadzilla]

There was a South Park where Jesus and Santa Claus got into a battle royale.

[Funk, E.]

Very well put, Fearless. Those are some of the classic arguments regarding freewill and the nature of a creator god. I particularly like the analogy of the chair in time. That was a nice one.

There is an implication within Christian theology and somewhat less directly in Judaic theology that the creator god is separate, yet eminent with regards to it's creation. There is also the implication that from the Judaic view that their god is the most powerful which was extended by Christianity that god is so powerful that there are no others. If dealing with scripture exclusively I do not believe omnipotence is ever expressly mentioned as a trait of god (if there is, please, let me know). Christianity and Judaism may play around with the idea of free will and an active force of evil, but if you press them to concede that their god is somehow limited by not being in complete control of the creation or that there could be an adversary with it’s own power. They will flatly deny such a claim. Which leads us to the all-powerful/knowing/present model of the Judo-Christian god. Their theology is trying to have it’s cake and eat it too. They want a god that none can challenge, but they want it to some how be willingly ineffectual in the affairs of man. That’s a basic contradiction.

Eminence within the creation alone is enough to make free will something of a confidence game. The idea that a god is allowing you to do what ever you want with it's power is kind of an empty form of free will. If god is separate from creation it’s something analogous to a thought/mind example. My mind is greater than my individual thoughts, but my individual thoughts are part of my mind. All it really establishes is that god is inclusive of and yet greater still than creation. Yet god’s is eminent in (read part of) the creation. Free will is still god’s will. Will power is god’s power. If you do something, god wills it. Got does not “let” you do your own thing as god must exert the power you need to do it. God knows what you are going to do and in so permitting it is an active participant. Even the thought itself is god’s will (power).

[Evan3]

You are wrong with free will in my opinion Funk E. consider this....

Think of it this way, when Adam and Eve were first created they were mindless supplicants to the will of God. They walked around naked, because they had no knowledge that it was embarassing, they had no knowledge of farming and had to live in perfection in order to survive. They also had no ability to make a decision of their own, they had to obey God, much as they had to obey the snake, for not knowing any better. So, from this, we find that God is the only being who has the power of knowledge, which makes knowledge a God like ability.

However, by stealing and eating the apple, the humans effectively stole a God like power from God. This was the true mix of God and man together. After the apple, Adam and Eve were both capable of lying, thinking and problem solving. Their sons, Cain and Able both had a choice of what to do (God favored shepards, so it stands to reason if humans didnt have free will, they would all become shepards).

So, God, knows all of the infinite possibilties, but can not know which path you as a human choose. It is similar to releasing a feather in the air. Without testing the air, you can know it will go in one of the four directions and what the outcomes are, but it is beyond your control to decide in which direction the feather would float. God knows all of the possible directions a person can take, but only you can choose.

[jmc]

>I've always thought it would be cool to have a TV show/movie where all the >Gods of various mythologies were real and fought each other with their >superpowers.

Check out the book AMERICAN GODS by Neil Gaiman--very similar concept, with the idea of gods having strength according to the number of people who believe in them.  The older gods struggle with the newer gods that have been created in the age of technology.

[JohnL]

>Anyways, I was wondering what other movies are out there that really gets you to
>really think about the alleged heaven/hell power struggle.

Try the Prophecy trilogy.

[Offthewall]

For a very adult film attempt see "Vulgar" it's very dark and disturbing but I like it.