OT: Monday Night Raw

[Scott]

Caught the second hour of WWE Pro Wrestling tonight. It was like an old timers reunion night. Here a few of the older wrestlers that showed up.

Hulk Hogan - In a six-man tag match including Shawn Micheals.
Ric Flair - Against Kurt Angle in a good match. Flair is starting to adapt to the limits of old age. Good match. How old is he now?
Sgt. Slaughter - Showed up in his full wrestling camoflage outfit like he wore in the 80's. He'll be back next week to whip the Diva's into shape.

Recently they also had a ECW pay per view against WWE wrestlers that I heard was a great show inside the famous New York arena (Brooklyn?).

These were great one night shows, but I'm not sure how Wrestling will ever become interesting again. A few observations from my point of view are

1) Stage/Ring Area - WWE needs to get rid of the Titantron and try something new. Bringing the Titantron back only for special events. Like once a year.

2) Television - Ring set up in a TV studio like long ago with a small audience in attendence.

3) Jobber Matches -Star against a nobody. Exihibiting the brutality of the old matches.

4) Get rid of this generic entrance music.

5) Selling the big moves more and ending a match with first use of a finisher move.

6) Over exposer of great Wrestling personalities. We may not be able to avoid this since everthing is now satilite broadcast.

[Scottie]

What I look for in wrestling is quality. While it is currently a television facade, wrestling derives its roots from people who once had technical abilities at performing complicated wrestling maneuvers. Luchadors were the best. They were quick and powerful and could work together to make the best show. Hold/reversal/reversal/pin/reversal/hold/ropes BREAK! Fantastic. Most of the matches I've seen recently are slow and akward with big bulky men bouncing around the ring. It's boring and unentertaining. It's useless to try to spend time watching it.

[Scott]

No doubt the Luchadore style is great. ECW was awesome as they had a few Mexican wrestlers and some very good Japanese wrestlers like Tajiri.

A good slow psychological match of old beats the fast paced matches of today. Tonights match with Flair vs Angle was a very interesting match. I looked into the crowd and the fans were barely watching.

A lot of the old wrestlers who could really wrestle didn't even look in good shape, but to watch them do 30 -60 minute matches told otherwise.

I haven't been to any matches in about 7 years, but I'm guessing an arena match today dosn't last more than 15 minutes and TV matches even less.

[Derf]

There are still a few good wrestlers and/or wrestling personalities. I only have access to WWE, which I began watching around 1990. A few of the guys still occasionally pull "Iron-Man" matches of up to 60 minutes, but those are usually saved for pay-per-views, which I never order, so I've only seen the few that have made it onto broadcast television, Triple H vs. Chris Benoit being the first one to come to mind. Benoit is good in the ring but not so much on the microphone. Chris Jericho is good both in the ring and on the mic, though his size has kept him back a bit: he's too small in the eyes of the WWE. HBK is still in very good form and makes everything he does look effortless. John Cena shows promise; he's becoming one of the next big breakout stars. There are a few others as well. WWE needs some competition to force them into presenting a better product, but there are some good guys there now.

[ToyMan]

it's sort of a misnomer to call the WWE product "pro wrestling". that's really not their market. they make a sort of bastard offspring called "sports entertainment".

you want wrestling? check out what's going on in japan, mexico, and in the american indys.

american indy wrestling is usually the most approachable. federations like IWA-MID SOUTH, CHIKARA, and RING OF HONOR.

as a matter of fact, a lot of guys from IWA-MS and ROH are making their way into the WWE and NWA:TNA ranks, which may help the state of the mainstream product. keep an eye out for CM PUNK and SAMOA JOE in particular. they've got cult-like followings on the indy level.

also, guys like psicosis, juventud guererra, super crazy, rey misterio (all luchadores), paul london, and akio are making an effort to bring some substance back to the game.

the unfortunate thing is, vince mcmahon has been through some unfortuante times in the past, seeing his biggest stars taken out of action due to injury, and there's a marked decrease in a wrestler's workrate as soon as they start wrestling for his company. i mean, it's unfortunate, but you have to see where he's coming from, on some level.

[Scott]

John Cena is one act that I can't get into. It just seems dumb. He may have some talent at wrestling (haven't seen enough), but that act has to go.

Some of my recent favorites are Eddie Guerrero and Tajiri, but I'm not sure they are still with the WWE.

If any of the promotions got too big McMahan would just buy them out. Not sure how many promoters along with the wrestlers have the determination to defeat Vince.

There does seem to be some talent in the WWE, but like you said no outside company to push the WWE.

A little wrestling story.................

I remember when RVD came to the WWE and really went soft with the extreme stuff and people still loved him. It was weird because Van Dam use to have a messageboard on his private website and I really liked his ECW matches, but thought it was way to risky for anybody to be doing backflips into the audience from the top rope and onto an opponent and onto the floor from 15 ft. away. I'm sure you've seen the footage. Totally insane ! Anyway I got on his messageboard and suggested he "cool it" on the high risk manuvuers and I went by the screen name "Vince" while he still wrestled for ECW. Never saw him do any of that high risk stuff again and he eventually signed with Vince in the WWE when nobody actually was sure he could do because of his open admission and approval to smoking illegal stuff.  On the messageboard I posted to Van Dam about how wrestling should go back to armbars and headlocks instead of the high risk stuff as I always do when talking about the sport. Told him it wasn't worth getting seriously injured for entertainment. I know he read the message, but not sure he actually made his decision due to my "Vince" post. : )

I use to watch ECW and some of that stuff was great to watch, but didn't want to see anyone get seriously injured for entertainment purposes. New Jack was the craziest. He jumped off the balcony and onto a wrestler laying on a table and missed the table because he was to high up and landed on the concrete floor 20 feet below causing his vision to go bad for weeks. He had a great act, but to high risk even for this fan.

Saw Van Dam and the rest of the ECW wrestle in Atlantic City in the late 90's with Sabu against the Dudleys finishing with the Dudley being put through the tables. Great stuff for a small crowd of 300 people in a National Guard Armory. Had 3rd row seat and we had to stand on the chairs the entire event.  A real blast and perhaps my favorite live show I ever caught. Probably saw about 30 shows mostly in the mid-80's.

[ToyMan]

i'd suggest that you take a look into japanese hardcore. the matches are far more brutal than most anything going on in the states. i'd also suggest that you look into an american indy wrestler named NECRO BUTCHER. some of the most insanely violent and graphic matches i've ever seen involve him. you're going to want to keep an eye out for "deathmatches".

yes, eddie and tajiri still work for vince. i'm not sure if he's currently on tv, but tajiri works on raw, and eddie works on smackdown, that is unless some wacky last-minute drafts come along before the end of the month.

[Wence]

What´s up with Coco Beware ?
:P

[clockworkcanary]

I'm an on-off fan of wrestling in general, focusing more on the backstage stuff (who's getting pushed/going over/booking/etc.) but have been loosing interest lately -tried to watch it a few times this month and just got bored of it.  They need competition again.  I liked it back in '96-'97 Attitude era when WCW was a big threat (before they jumped the shark by putting their best title belt on David F#King Arquette).

Speaking of which, since most of you folks like "bad" entertainment and some of you like (or like to poke fun at) wrestling, you should check out www.wrestlecrap.com - it's a halarious review of the worst angles/stories/characters in wrestling history (my personal favs being the Shockmaster -the former "Tugboat" who was supposed to bust through the wall on live TV but tripped and fell on his arse with his glitter-painted stormtrooper helmet falling to the floor (what was Vince Russo thinking?!).

Also, if you want some really fun and funny wrestling -you should check out "Strangelmania"  -one of the funniest wrestling tapes I've ever seen.  Basically it's some indie matches in Japan (I believe) -some featuring Mick Foley and Terry Funk and best of all, it's dubbed with commentary by the Insane Clown Posse!  Friggin halarious (they call Terry Funk -Drunk Terry Flunk; they call Mick Cactus Sack and his opponent Lama Nama Numi (and their respective dads, Prickly Balls and Loma Mowma Mommy hahahaah!).

[ErikJ]

Just for your info WWE just went through some major cuts and more coming. My opinion is that they cut some real talent while keeping the pretty boys that they think will add to the ratings(For example they are bringing back "Borring" Brock Lesner after his failed attempt at the NFL). Plus they are moving from Spike back to the USA network.
Those released were:
Joy Giovanni
Kenzo Suzuki
Hiroko Suzuki
Matt Morgan
Charlie Haas
Jackie Gayda
Marty Jannetty
Dawn Marie
Mark Jindrak
Maven
Shannon Moore
James Yun (Akio)
David Heath (Gangrel)
Billy Kidman
Bubba Ray Dudley
Devon Dudley
Spike Dudley
Kevin Fertig


Now there is a plus side to all of this. The promotion NWA/TNA is now in talks with Spike about bringing their product to the station. And all of this talent now available can sign with them. Vince may have wrote this company off as no real competition but it looks like he may have spoke too soon.