THE CIVIL WAR reruns

[BoyScoutKevin]

I was going to say that Ken Burns' documentary on the Civil War was the most watched documentary ever shown on PBS, and I believe it continues to be the most watched documentary ever shown on PBS, but this thread has gone beyond that. What it does show, the interest that Americans have in the Civil War, and which I concur. Of all the wars fought so far to date, the Civil War is the one that I find the most interesting to study.

And a good place to start is a book by Burke Davis, which was originally published in 1960 under the title "Our Incredible Civil War," then was republished in 1982 under the title "The Civil War: Strange & Fascinating Facts." A collection of anecdotes about the war.

That may not seem like much of a subject, but it does show that many of the weapons, which we associate with modern warfare, from the machinegun to the first successful submarine, actually got their start 150 years ago.

That the war was a young man's war. At one time or the other, the Union had 2.700,00 men under arms. Of those, when the voting age was 21, almost 75% were not old enough to vote, when they enlisted, including the youngest general in U.S. Army history. Brevet Major General Pennypacker, who could not vote till the last year of the war. Old enough to lead, but too young to vote.

No one knows who was the youngest soldier in the Union Army, but he is thought to have been around nine or ten.

It was a foreigner's war. A large number of men who fought for the Union were born somewhere besides the U.S. Including almost thirty of the generals in the army. The men coming from almost every country then in existance.

While there was not as many foreigners in the Confederate army, there were alot of foreigners who fought for the Confederacy, including almost a dozen generals.

It was a bloody affair. No American war before or since, has incurred that number of casualities or percentage of casualities incured on both sides in the Civil War. Some regiments, on both sides, losing more than 67% of their men in only one battle.

It was indeed an uncivil Civil War. Not only neighbors fighting neighbors, but whole families divided in their loyalities between the North and the South.

And it is a war which no one knows what to call. One chapter in the book lists almost thirty different tiles by which the war is known. From the War for Constitutional Libery to the War for the Union.

And ending with myself, the most interesting aspects of the war are not the best known battles, but some of the of the more obscure battles, such as Pea Ridge/Elkhorn Tavern,  Allatoona Pass, Franklin, etc. I have also the good fortune to visit the battlefields of both Pea Ridge/Elkhorn Tavern and Franklin. Thus, I would sugggest that with the next four years, if you live or pass near one of the Civil War battlefields, you stop and pay it a visit. As it should give you a better understanding of the war.

[RCMerchant]

The civil war was worth fighting.

Slavery was a dying institution. It was being ended all over the world. It was being replaced by more efficient and humane labor practices.  I don't think 600,000 human beings who would have remained alive had to die for something that itself was on its death bed.

At any rate it shouldn't even be called the civil war. The south had no desire to take over the north and have slavery there.

The result was of course great. Slavery being over is at least tangible.

I like this article http://takimag.com/article/robert_e_lee_forever

"What I learn as I get older is that like most wars, the Civil War was pursued by so-called Honest Abe because big Northern business wanted to conduct big business in the Union. They wanted to build railroads and wanted interstate roads and access to markets. The South wished to remain sleepy and agricultural. Lincoln did not make slavery an issue until two years after the first shots over Fort Sumter. "

So to some of us, it's a little more nuanced is all.

A dying institution.Dam. I dont think the people who were enslaved felt that way. "A couple more years....and you'll be free,boy." Bulls**t. One more f**king DAY is too long. Yeah,Lincoln fudged on the issue,but when it came down to the wire,he did the right thing. And it gave the insanity of the Civil War a purpose. Yes-lots of people died. Some things are worth dying for. If I  was alive back then,I'd more than likey be a radical little basterd. I'd of went down with John Brown.

[Newt]

A dying institution.Dam. I dont think the people who were enslaved felt that way. "A couple more years....and you'll be free,boy." Bulls**t. One more f**king DAY is too long. Yeah,Lincoln fudged on the issue,but when it came down to the wire,he did the right thing. And it gave the insanity of the Civil War a purpose. Yes-lots of people died. Some things are worth dying for. If I  was alive back then,I'd more than likey be a radical little basterd. I'd of went down with John Brown.

  That's why we love you, RC!

[Allhallowsday]

Pamela Sue Martin

What's this?

[Allhallowsday]

It 's a good series to watch i watched it last week.It was fabulous

Okay!  Thank you leenaz!  At least you got this thread back on track - who cares if that certain amusingly individualistic someone doesn't see the deep implications of what you're all saying - again?       A good discussion guys, I completely missed it...  Again.    But I read it all!    

...
"Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery -- the greatest material interest of the world," proclaimed Mississippi in its own secession declaration, passed Jan. 9, 1861. "Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of the commerce of the earth. . . . A blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization."  From an article I like: Five myths about why the South seceded

Nauseating.

The south had every right to sucede. 600,000 people, most of whom had nothing to do with slavery or the slave trade, dead.  terrible.

I know how strongly American Civilization now leans on the triumph of the Government

??

The point of the letter, Lester, is the fact that when the letter was delivered to Sullivan Ballou's wife, she was a widow; he had written:  
But, O Sarah! If the dead can come back to this earth and flit unseen around those they loved, I shall always be near you; in the gladdest days and in the darkest nights . . . always, always, and if there be a soft breeze upon your cheek, it shall be my breath, as the cool air fans your throbbing temple, it shall be my spirit passing by. Sarah do not mourn me dead; think I am gone and wait for thee, for we shall meet again . . .

We don't care about this long-dead soldier's politics.  It's poetry, Lester.  I admire your individuality, but, grow a heart.  

[Flick James]

We don't care about this long-dead soldier's politics.  It's poetry, Lester.  I admire your individuality, but, grow a heart.

Well, some people DO care about the long-dead soldier's politics, hence why the thread turned political. It wasn't just lester. But, you do make a good point. Letter writing, in particular, expressions of the heart on paper is a virtually dead form, and very sad really. I recently found the travel journal my wife and I did jointly while on our honeymoon in Italy, and there's just something about the way the heart communicates when putting ink to paper that is sublime.

[indianasmith]

The first time I heard that letter read, it put a huge lump in my throat.  We have dumbed down our language so much in the last 60 years that the average teenager can't even comprehend the words in one of Lincoln's speeches, much less engage in discussion of the ideas they contain.

  I do get impatient with what I perceive as Lester's blindness on moral issues in wartime.  He is an interesting person, and I respect him, but I just can't see the world through his eyes.  Lincoln is one of my heroes, both as a person and as a President, and I hate to see him trashed.

But I think it goes a bit deeper.  I'm a sixth generation Texan and a tenth generation southerner.  I HATE slavery with a passion because it took everything that was good and decent and Godly about the South and twisted and corrupted it.  Every single social institution was warped to meet the demands of the peculiar institution, including Christianity and democracy itself.  I simply don't understand how my ancestors could call their war a 'struggle for Southern liberty" when they regarded that liberty as inherently including the right to buy and sell little children at the auction block, to separate husbands and wives at estate sales, and to rape their female slaves whenever they darn well felt like it.

   But, my personal emotions aside, Ken Burns' documentary series is truly amazing.  If you've never watched it, take the opportunity to do so.

[Allhallowsday]

We don't care about this long-dead soldier's politics.  It's poetry, Lester.  I admire your individuality, but, grow a heart.

Well, some people DO care about the long-dead soldier's politics, hence why the thread turned political. It wasn't just lester. But, you do make a good point. Letter writing, in particular, expressions of the heart on paper is a virtually dead form, and very sad really. I recently found the travel journal my wife and I did jointly while on our honeymoon in Italy, and there's just something about the way the heart communicates when putting ink to paper that is sublime.

Don't misunderstand my "good point".  Lester picked out a small portion of the letter to quibble over, instead of appreciating its poetry.  Don't kid yourself about Lester's coarseness.  I've grown to like Lester, but there is a reason he's the most smited person on this forum.  Some time in the past I had posted a thread about an FDR program I had watched on PBS, and Lester hurried in with a political tirade about the evils of FDR.  Don't make excuses - the thread turned political because y'all wanted to talk politics (which I don't object to, but won't sit still for subtle suggestions that I'm responsible for.) 

The letter illustrates the perspective of one individual, naive and old-fashioned as it may seem to us.  Hindsight and knowledge of his death in the war only makes it more poignant.  I realize you are referring to the politics of that time, but I was referring to the personal politics of SULLIVAN BALLOU, if he had any.  He obviously had faith in his federal government.  But, that is not the bulk of the content.  This letter is an example of the sublime of which you write.  

[lester1/2jr]

I've grown to like Lester, but there is a reason he's the most smited person on this forum.

just fyi  virtually ALL of those negatives were before you had to sign your name to it. Since then there has been virtually nothing but pluses.

[Flick James]

I've grown to like Lester, but there is a reason he's the most smited person on this forum.

just fyi  virtually ALL of those negatives were before you had to sign your name to it. Since then there has been virtually nothing but pluses.

That's disappointing, lester. I like to think of you as a perpetual rogue.

[Allhallowsday]

I've grown to like Lester, but there is a reason he's the most smited person on this forum.

just fyi  virtually ALL of those negatives were before you had to sign your name to it. Since then there has been virtually nothing but pluses.

That's disappointing, lester. I like to think of you as a perpetual rogue.

Y'know what?  I don't think it was ever once, me knockin' Lester, but I haven't checked Lester's karma.  I only knock those who knock me, or the rare type that everybody denounces.  Once Lester and I crossed swords in a thread he started about THE OTHER which we didn't agree on.  I still chuckle when I think about it, though I suspect Lester has probably long forgotten about it.  That's my curse: Elephant's Memory.      

Lester even not so long ago trumpeted leaving me karma (the first time!) and I chuckled and seemed to remember Lester long ago proclaiming: "Karma is for babies!"        I think AHNOLD: "MILK is for babies!!"

[Allhallowsday]

This is why I love karma: I went back and peeked at a few early pages of Lester's karma (y'know I left that guy a lot of karma) and found the below youtube.  The below is one of my favorite youtubes and it was Lester who pointed it out.  If you have NOT seen this SMOKEY ROBINSON youtube, you are missing the most perfectly worded rant I have yet heard, passionate, blunt, but never rude: 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_KKyw8V-l0&feature=player_embedded

[lester1/2jr]

allhallows- I follow a guy named Wilton Alston on twitter http://twitter.com/Wiltster He was one of the first people I followed and he rarely tweets. He's black and also a highly respected economics guy of your modern post right wing anarchist variety and he tweeted that I believe.

I remember our disagreement about The Other. I think you felt I didn't respect it but that's not true. I was just attempting to make sense of it in a sarcastic sort of way.

I should give out more karma. I don't know. Another board I go to has a version of it but I don't really look at it.

[Allhallowsday]

allhallows- I follow a guy named Wilton Alston on twitter http://twitter.com/Wiltster He was one of the first people I followed and he rarely tweets. He's black and also a highly respected economics guy of your modern post right wing anarchist variety and he tweeted that I believe.

I remember our disagreement about The Other. I think you felt I didn't respect it but that's not true. I was just attempting to make sense of it in a sarcastic sort of way.

I should give out more karma. I don't know. Another board I go to has a version of it but I don't really look at it.

That SMOKEY ROBINSON clip is awesome.  

THE OTHER?  No, it wasn't a respect thing ('cept maybe your lack of any towards me...  )  Done now.  

Milk is for babies.  

[lester1/2jr]

here's the thread

http://www.badmovies.org/forum/index.php/topic,115927.0.html

it looks like we had a disagreement over it, but I think I recall I took offense at

lester1/2jr, it sounds to me like you did not get THE OTHER.

and just sort of defended myself. I would probably handle it differently now but at the time it just seemed like someone I didn't know telling me I was stupid and you know what was I gonna do be like "oh yeah my opinion is s**t, tell me what I should think random guy"