Good Guy(s) Cheating To Win

Mr. DS · January 16, 2012, 11:57:16 AM

I really dislike when "heroes" in a film have to cheat to win. Theres many instances and varieties. One I can think of is the whole 2 on 1 matchups. A perfect example of this would be Obiwan and Quigon VS Darth Maul in Star Wars Episode 1. Maul clearly could take either one of them in a 1 on 1.

Other film examples?

ulthar · January 16, 2012, 12:10:13 PM

Quote from: DS on January 16, 2012, 11:57:16 AM

I really dislike when "heroes" in a film have to cheat to win. Theres many instances and varieties. One I can think of is the whole 2 on 1 matchups. A perfect example of this would be Obiwan and Quigon VS Darth Maul in Star Wars Episode 1. Maul clearly could take either one of them in a 1 on 1.

Other film examples?

I get your point but disagree with your example.

In the SW universe, there is a war between good and evil (supposedly...don't get me started on how Lucas screwed this up).

There's no "cheating" in war, and defeating Darth Maul was the goal, period. If that takes two, so be it. It was not a sports contest.

I was thinking about this type of thing the other day...I'm not real happy with the fad that has become commonplace in movies...the "anti-hero."

I get that the line between good and bad can be blurred...occasionally...but not always. It's almost as if Hollywood is "afraid" to make a simple hero these days.

As I think of an example of what you ask, here's one thought. THE PORNOGRAPHER (1999).

Paul was 'the hero' of the story in that he was basically a good guy trapped in his porn addiction. Once he decided to make pornographic movies, he needed to find a fresh face, a star. The vile way he tricked the girl into it, and the ultimate consequence of those actions (trying to avoid spoilers), make him the 'anti-hero,' or someone who 'cheated' to win.

And the very ending of the story essentially shows it was all for nothing, that he learned nothing and accomplished nothing of value....the story is a bit deeper than the title suggests.

But, to the point of the thread, we are left being asked to care for, like and sympathize with a totally repugnant character...much more likable in the first act than by the ending.

I can think of a few similar instances, but I'm drawing a blank on the more action oriented 'cheating' that I think you may have meant as a focus...

ChaosTheory · January 16, 2012, 12:31:03 PM

Two off the top of my head (spoilers):
Eisenheim in THE ILLUSIONIST tricked everyone into thinking the bad guy had killed his girlfriend, which contributes to the guy killing himself. (That one's a little ambiguous b/c the villain was plotting to overthrow his father's empire and was abusing the girl anyway, but Eisenheim still cheated.)

Christian Bale's character in THE PRESTIGE lets his rival (Hugh Jackman) think he's discovered how to teleport when he just has a twin. The two switch back and forth constantly in their magic act and in their personal life; and one twin not knowing how to do a trick properly leads to Jackman's wife getting killed onstage. They share Bale's wife as well and never tell her the truth, making her think her husband is cheating on her/hates her half the time and she eventually has a nervous breakdown and commits suicide. Meanwhile Jackman pretty much loses his mind and eventually gets killed (after meeting Nicola Tesla and taking his invention that's basically a human fax machine), and one of the Bale twins goes to jail and gets hanged. But hey, he had a great magic trick!

Mr. DS · January 17, 2012, 08:07:06 AM

QuoteThere's no "cheating" in war, and defeating Darth Maul was the goal, period. If that takes two, so be it. It was not a sports contest.

That is true...from a certain point of view.

I simply don't like the way the Jedis roll in general. They seem to be the jock picking on the different kid in school. I understand the Sith are pure evil and massive oppourtunists. Still, the Jedi often come off as pricks. Plus some of the stuff they expect is ludicrous. For example, Obi Wan telling Luke to virtually kill his father. Luke, being deeply conflicted as most of us would be, says no at first. Then Obi Wan shrugs like a teenager who doesn't get his way and says "the emporer has already won".

Flick James · January 17, 2012, 11:29:01 AM

Superman II

Not exactly cheating, but as much as I love that movie, the bad guys, even General Zod, are kind of morons. They are evil and brutal and have no morals, but as evil as they are, they seem to have no knowledge of human nature at all. Everything is at face value. Superman doesn't necessarily cheat when he tricks them at the end via Lex Luthor because he knows he will betray him, because, like ulthar said, it's war. However, when you consider what a boyscout Superman is, it's kind of like cheating because he is taking advantage of what he knows about Luthor that they do not. It's not in his character to be underhanded. I've always considered it a little bit like cheating for him.

Jim H · January 17, 2012, 08:19:37 PM

This kind of happens in Wizards, but in that case I thought it was awesome.

Ted C · January 17, 2012, 10:54:22 PM

Quote from: DS on January 16, 2012, 11:57:16 AM
I really dislike when "heroes" in a film have to cheat to win. Theres many instances and varieties. One I can think of is the whole 2 on 1 matchups. A perfect example of this would be Obiwan and Quigon VS Darth Maul in Star Wars Episode 1. Maul clearly could take either one of them in a 1 on 1.

Other film examples?

Exactly what did Obi-Wan do that you would regard as cheating?

Trevor · January 18, 2012, 01:46:43 AM

The only example I can think of is Wolverine kicking the limb regenerating mutant in the cojones in X Men: The Last Stand when he realizes that he can't beat the guy honestly.

joejoe · January 18, 2012, 04:13:14 AM

this may or may not apply but,,

in "10 to Midnight" Charles Bronson plants blood in the killers apartment.

the guy goes to jail, then the cops find out about the phony evidence, suspend Bronson,and then let the killer out.

in the end though, Bronson shoots him in the middle of the street

claws · January 18, 2012, 04:51:50 AM

Doin' Time (1985)

"Good Guy" is sent to jail which is run by corrupt "Bad Guys".
Later in the movie they set up a prison boxing match and the good guy wins because they can limit the opponents moves with a huge magnet under the ring after they hid metal plates in his shoes.

Doggett · January 18, 2012, 06:19:57 AM

Marty McFly buying that sports result book in 'Back to the Future Pt 2'.

Mr. DS · January 18, 2012, 08:24:31 AM

Quote from: Ted C on January 17, 2012, 10:54:22 PM
Quote from: DS on January 16, 2012, 11:57:16 AM
I really dislike when "heroes" in a film have to cheat to win. Theres many instances and varieties. One I can think of is the whole 2 on 1 matchups. A perfect example of this would be Obiwan and Quigon VS Darth Maul in Star Wars Episode 1. Maul clearly could take either one of them in a 1 on 1.

Other film examples?

Exactly what did Obi-Wan do that you would regard as cheating?

Per my statement, teaming up with Quigon to take on one Sith lord. 2 vs 1 is usually an unfair advantage.

Hammock Rider · January 19, 2012, 12:40:25 PM

Indy shooting that Sword Guy in Raiders of the Lost Ark. Funny as hell though.

Flick James · January 23, 2012, 11:00:42 AM

Quote from: Hammock Rider on January 19, 2012, 12:40:25 PM
Indy shooting that Sword Guy in Raiders of the Lost Ark. Funny as hell though.

A great bit. That's actually an old slapstick bit that was also used by Benny Hill.

InformationGeek · January 23, 2012, 12:08:11 PM

It wasn't from a movie, but Batman has cheated before to beat some of enemies. When fighting a villian called Prometheus, who used these disks implanted in his helmet to give special fighting ablities (It's comic books, don't question it), Batman surprised by switching the disk the villian was using to give him the fighting ability of Stephen Hawking. According to friend who asked him during the fight if he was cheating, his response was that he was winning.

Good Guy(s) Cheating To Win

claws